Personally I think its games like these that will revitalize the wargamming industry. I am middle aged (35) but have been a wargammer at heart for a long time (15 yrs+). With the scope and support of this game Matrix / 2 BY 3 can do nothing but improve the wargamming community... It has never been large, but I think we are keeping our size up and adding some new guys to the crowd...
One big thing people overlook at times is that only the older people have the free time to dedicate to wargames... No indepth wargame is a quick game - not if you play it right... Older people tend to have more free time - maybe retired, kids are gone, etc... Thats why the youngins like RTS games - they last maybe an hour and are fun - I play them too... But to me no RTS can give me the strategy and indepth control like a wargame - especially WitP... Just a few changes (for my personal choice) and it would be the best game ever... [:'(]
The advantage with computers is that I can play a wargame ANYTIME I want without having to fill the dining room with a map and pieces AND find someone else to play against.. With the AI and PBEM I can find all the opponents I will ever want / need online...
Xargun
Future of games like WITP
Moderators: Joel Billings, wdolson, Don Bowen, mogami
RE: Future of games like WITP
I think the real problem is the demographics. I'm not sure what the difference is, but the kids - generally - seem to be less interested in this type of game. Whether it is short attention span, the fact that older players in their youth regularly interacted with WWII vets, there weren't as many forms of entertainment when the older crowd was growing up and got hooked as a result, I don't know. My guess is that the FPS games are more exciting and that's what the kids go for (and why not?); there was no such thing as a fast-action FPS board game when the older ones grew up (Sniper and Squad Leader are the closest things I can think of), so we're more comfortable with a slower paced, contemplative game.
In my case, my father who served with the 13th Air Force in the Philippines near the end of World War II.
PO2 US Navy (1980-1986);
USS Midway CV-41 (1981-1984)
Whidbey Island, WA (1984-1986)
Naval Reserve (1986-1992)
USS Midway CV-41 (1981-1984)
Whidbey Island, WA (1984-1986)
Naval Reserve (1986-1992)
RE: Future of games like WITP
The other things you have to consider is that, Matrix is the publisher. They generate funds from all of the titles under their belt.
Three things to consider :
1. WitP is a expansion of UV. Yes, it is a -VERY- different game than UV, and far superiour. But think about all of the routines and database elements that were lifted directly from UV directly into WitP. Even if those algoithms require dramatic "tweaking", you still at least have the fundamental design and large object library to work from. This saves you a lot of money in developement costs, because you're not working from scratch.
2. Matrix generates funds from ALL it's games. Some will be more profitable than others, and can prop up a more narrow margin on game that goes over it's budgeted dev cost. Maybe "Starshatter" didn't end up costing them much. But then it has better than expected sales, and that surplus goes to (indirectly) subsidizing the budget overrun of another game. Or maybe Korson Pocket comes out and is a hit. It's making money, but not to the tune that "Startshatter" did. But now there's a new module, "Across the Dneiper". It's more scenarios, and some code enhancements, but even if you sell it at half the cost of the orginal, you didn't spend THAT long in developement for the thing, so it's going to make you a fair amount of money also. It's like the Cokes at McDonalds being $1.20, and a BigMac is on sale for $.99. They're making about $1.15 of that Coke, they can afford to eat the margin on the BigMac.
3. There's also the "get 'em in the door" effect. Matrix knows nobody would pay $100 for the game (for example). But they decide that $70 is the most they can charge, and not frighten folks away. It might be that at $70, they're only going to make $10 a copy (who knows). But they also know that something in the rest of their stock will appeal to us (notice the banners for everything else they sell is on every page?). So we buy WitP. Think, "Wow that's great! I had a great experiece with WitP, what else are these guys publishing..." And hense the opportunity to purchase something else (that might not have had a high developement cost).
And that's your 1st year of MBA school in a nut-shell...
[;)]
-F-
Three things to consider :
1. WitP is a expansion of UV. Yes, it is a -VERY- different game than UV, and far superiour. But think about all of the routines and database elements that were lifted directly from UV directly into WitP. Even if those algoithms require dramatic "tweaking", you still at least have the fundamental design and large object library to work from. This saves you a lot of money in developement costs, because you're not working from scratch.
2. Matrix generates funds from ALL it's games. Some will be more profitable than others, and can prop up a more narrow margin on game that goes over it's budgeted dev cost. Maybe "Starshatter" didn't end up costing them much. But then it has better than expected sales, and that surplus goes to (indirectly) subsidizing the budget overrun of another game. Or maybe Korson Pocket comes out and is a hit. It's making money, but not to the tune that "Startshatter" did. But now there's a new module, "Across the Dneiper". It's more scenarios, and some code enhancements, but even if you sell it at half the cost of the orginal, you didn't spend THAT long in developement for the thing, so it's going to make you a fair amount of money also. It's like the Cokes at McDonalds being $1.20, and a BigMac is on sale for $.99. They're making about $1.15 of that Coke, they can afford to eat the margin on the BigMac.
3. There's also the "get 'em in the door" effect. Matrix knows nobody would pay $100 for the game (for example). But they decide that $70 is the most they can charge, and not frighten folks away. It might be that at $70, they're only going to make $10 a copy (who knows). But they also know that something in the rest of their stock will appeal to us (notice the banners for everything else they sell is on every page?). So we buy WitP. Think, "Wow that's great! I had a great experiece with WitP, what else are these guys publishing..." And hense the opportunity to purchase something else (that might not have had a high developement cost).
And that's your 1st year of MBA school in a nut-shell...
[;)]
-F-
"It is obvious that you have greatly over-estimated my regard for your opinion." - Me
RE: Future of games like WITP
ORIGINAL: Oliver Heindorf
it has already started....360 pacific gone, SSI sold out, gone Microprose financial collapse due to mismanagement....look around, all the games you get now are more simplyfied, more balla balla etc. just glad that companies like matrix are around here. Dont forget that the games we play are usually for the older customer and the younger arent that much attracted
I am not sure that the situation is so hopeless. Internet is now a great way to sell to a niche market like wargamers or strategy game players - no more retailers (and their margins !) and the publishers can now easily sell in the entire world [:)]
Board-like wargames seem to mainly attract rather old players but the new breed of computer wargames (Combat Mission 1 & 2, HOI, HOI 2 ... even Strategic Command) are quite popular (for wargames !) without being too much simplified - and they are not attracting only old grognards like us [;)]
Moreover, if the wargames market was dead, why did Paradox buy the Squad Leader licence last august ?
To sum up, to design & publish wargames is not the best or fastest way to become rich & famous but with the right business model, it can be a sustainable business.
RE: Future of games like WITP
My favorite computer war games:
360
V For Victory: D-Day Utah Beach <== unfortunately can't be played with Windows 95, 98 or XP
I must hold my breath right the V4V series runs on my p4 with xp....
I owed the series on floppy and lost most of them but downloaded it from the underdogs site and it runs ok the only problem I have is with my mouse it moves very slowly.
360
V For Victory: D-Day Utah Beach <== unfortunately can't be played with Windows 95, 98 or XP
I must hold my breath right the V4V series runs on my p4 with xp....
I owed the series on floppy and lost most of them but downloaded it from the underdogs site and it runs ok the only problem I have is with my mouse it moves very slowly.
Support the Boy Scouts buy Popcorn!
http://www.trails-end.com/estore/scouts ... id=3133025
http://www.trails-end.com/estore/scouts ... id=3133025
RE: Future of games like WITP
Well; it looks like the majority of the grognards are over 40, but there is a small group of promising young 'uns coming along too. There is hope then.
The first player shooters will get older, with worse reflexes, and smarter, then they'll move on to turn based RPG, and from there to strategy games, is only a matter of scope. IMHO[8|]
There is room for guarded optimism.[;)]
Now back to the important things in life:
I want my patch! I want my patch! (Throws tantrum.)
The first player shooters will get older, with worse reflexes, and smarter, then they'll move on to turn based RPG, and from there to strategy games, is only a matter of scope. IMHO[8|]
There is room for guarded optimism.[;)]
Now back to the important things in life:
I want my patch! I want my patch! (Throws tantrum.)
Appear at places to which he must hasten; move swiftly where he does not expect you.
Sun Tzu
Sun Tzu
-
Joel Billings
- Posts: 33775
- Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2000 8:00 am
- Location: Santa Rosa, CA
- Contact:
RE: Future of games like WITP
Bradley7735 had a great analysis of the situation. It only got about 1/2 the items right, but is pretty darn good all things considered. Of course the story on WitP has not yet been fully written, so we'll have to wait awhile to see where it ends up.
As for the future of wargames, hopefully they'll always be a dedicated few that are willing to scratch out a living in the industry to make these products. Perhaps some of the more serious games will be difficult to justify producing in the future. However, you never know what advancements will come in computers and computer science that may make it easier for us to keep making games. Something in mainstream gaming might change that trickles down to the wargaming market.
For now, speaking from pure self-interest, I would ask any serious wargamer, that wants to support the industry now and into the future to talk up our upcomming game Gary Grigsby's World at War to anyone you know that plays computer games and might be interested in a strategy game that is relatively simple to learn but complex to master. We need to get some new blood into wargaming and this is one way to do it. Axis & Allies has sold millions of copies over the years and I think that every A&A player would be interested in GGWaW, and most would thouroughly enjoy playing it. I would bet a lot of you have played A&A with groups of people before and that many of these people have a computer but don't keep up with today's wargames. Why not get the group to buy GGWaW and try a 4 or 5 player PBEM game. I can almost guarantee that you'll enjoy the game more than A&A. Of course we're very happy with the AI (much better than the AI in computer A&A) so it's a good game for someone to learn while playing the AI. Also, we've included several advanced rules that make the game more interesting once you've learned the basics. This means that playing the basic game is much easier to get into for those that aren't used to complicated wargames.
GGWaW will be distributed in stores with a box and manual. Hopefully you'll be able to find it in a store near you. Yes, you can buy it online, but feel free to buy it in a store when it first comes out. This will help because it will get the attention of the store if it sells well out of the gate, and it will also give you a chance to quickly check the game out and confirm whether I'm right about this game. Then if you like it as much as I think you will, you can quickly email your friends and try to convince them to get the game so you can play PBEM. This game is our (2by3 and Matrix) best hope to drive sales to non-hardcore customers that might be interested in other Matrix and 2by3 titles but haven't bothered to find out about Matrix. For those overseas, we expect GGWaW to have good international distribution (including localized versions in some languages) so don't feel left out. Hopefully especially once localized, you can convince your friends to give the game a try.
You old guard (the true grognards) are our best marketing. I'm not kidding about this. If you decide you like this game and make an effort to convince some of your casual wargame/computer strategy game friends to try this game out, you can make a big difference. You will not only be helping with GGWaW, but helping to generate future customers and thus a future supply of good wargames. Yes, I am making a blatent appeal for your help. Yes, I will make more money if you do this. I admit it, I want to make enough so I can continue to justify working with Gary, Keith and others to make computer wargames. I want Matrix to make enough so they can continue to publish games by us and other dedicated wargame designers. We're doing everything we can to make GGWaW a very special game. The last game I felt this way about was Panzer General. I don't expect this game to sell as well as PG (arguably the best selling computer wargame in history) as it doesn't have the "role-playing" element of PG. But it is a darn fun game to play and a real mental challenge. And I'm learning something new everyday about WWII as I work on and play this game, and I thought I knew a lot already. What more could you ask for from a game.
So there you have it. A crass appeal for money or a dedicated desire to grow the computer wargame market? As it should be, it's up to you to decide.
As for the future of wargames, hopefully they'll always be a dedicated few that are willing to scratch out a living in the industry to make these products. Perhaps some of the more serious games will be difficult to justify producing in the future. However, you never know what advancements will come in computers and computer science that may make it easier for us to keep making games. Something in mainstream gaming might change that trickles down to the wargaming market.
For now, speaking from pure self-interest, I would ask any serious wargamer, that wants to support the industry now and into the future to talk up our upcomming game Gary Grigsby's World at War to anyone you know that plays computer games and might be interested in a strategy game that is relatively simple to learn but complex to master. We need to get some new blood into wargaming and this is one way to do it. Axis & Allies has sold millions of copies over the years and I think that every A&A player would be interested in GGWaW, and most would thouroughly enjoy playing it. I would bet a lot of you have played A&A with groups of people before and that many of these people have a computer but don't keep up with today's wargames. Why not get the group to buy GGWaW and try a 4 or 5 player PBEM game. I can almost guarantee that you'll enjoy the game more than A&A. Of course we're very happy with the AI (much better than the AI in computer A&A) so it's a good game for someone to learn while playing the AI. Also, we've included several advanced rules that make the game more interesting once you've learned the basics. This means that playing the basic game is much easier to get into for those that aren't used to complicated wargames.
GGWaW will be distributed in stores with a box and manual. Hopefully you'll be able to find it in a store near you. Yes, you can buy it online, but feel free to buy it in a store when it first comes out. This will help because it will get the attention of the store if it sells well out of the gate, and it will also give you a chance to quickly check the game out and confirm whether I'm right about this game. Then if you like it as much as I think you will, you can quickly email your friends and try to convince them to get the game so you can play PBEM. This game is our (2by3 and Matrix) best hope to drive sales to non-hardcore customers that might be interested in other Matrix and 2by3 titles but haven't bothered to find out about Matrix. For those overseas, we expect GGWaW to have good international distribution (including localized versions in some languages) so don't feel left out. Hopefully especially once localized, you can convince your friends to give the game a try.
You old guard (the true grognards) are our best marketing. I'm not kidding about this. If you decide you like this game and make an effort to convince some of your casual wargame/computer strategy game friends to try this game out, you can make a big difference. You will not only be helping with GGWaW, but helping to generate future customers and thus a future supply of good wargames. Yes, I am making a blatent appeal for your help. Yes, I will make more money if you do this. I admit it, I want to make enough so I can continue to justify working with Gary, Keith and others to make computer wargames. I want Matrix to make enough so they can continue to publish games by us and other dedicated wargame designers. We're doing everything we can to make GGWaW a very special game. The last game I felt this way about was Panzer General. I don't expect this game to sell as well as PG (arguably the best selling computer wargame in history) as it doesn't have the "role-playing" element of PG. But it is a darn fun game to play and a real mental challenge. And I'm learning something new everyday about WWII as I work on and play this game, and I thought I knew a lot already. What more could you ask for from a game.
So there you have it. A crass appeal for money or a dedicated desire to grow the computer wargame market? As it should be, it's up to you to decide.
All understanding comes after the fact.
-- Soren Kierkegaard
-- Soren Kierkegaard
RE: Future of games like WITP
Me and all of my friends have been guilty of buying a boardgame and never playing it. It was almost worth the price just to look at the mapboards and feel and smell the counters. Fantasizing about playing was almost worth the money.
My friends used to kid me that I only bought games to look at the maps and counter.
"Look at al the pretty colors"[8D]
RE: Future of games like WITP
Well, I think we're really speculating with all these figures. I have to assume Matrix and 2x3 thought they would make money if they sold the game for $70, and who knows whether they estimated the volume correctly. I just hope they do manage to stay around, because there are so few companies making truly good wargames. For the business side of it, if they need some free advice from an MBA student who will work for free (to a point), well, I'm right here! [:D]
Remember Bataan - Never Forget!
RE: Future of games like WITP
Joel, I was planning to buy 2by3 next game even though I do not know how much time I will spend on it because of WITP.
RE: Future of games like WITP
When Knavey and I played the table top games, if the weight of box was "substantial", you knew it was gonna be a winner. They couldda just put a few rocks in the thing, and we would have bought it, but the addage was fairly true, the heavier the better.
I was probably the only 4th grader who know what the word "maneuverability" meant, or knew where Stavelot and the Hurtegen Forrest were.
And then when we started buying computer games, if there were several of the 5 1/2" disks (Ultima3!), or a big manual with lots of tables (PacWar!), you were in for a treat. And then the finally -did- put a stupid rock in the game, remember the "moonstone" enclosed with Ultima 5? [:D]
I told my wife the best part about having our son (who is 9 weeks old today!), is that I'll finally have an opponenet for my Squad Leader and AirForce games (in about 9 years). Well actually, the BIGGEST advantage to having a son, is that he gets to cut my lawn as soon as he can see over the bar, but gaming is a close 2nd (*just kidding*).
And I really, REALLY, really miss Panzer General. I'll tell you what Joel. I'll put World at War on my Christmas list, and you boys at Matrix think about putting Panzer General on yours (to get the rights to republish...?).
[;)]
-F-
I was probably the only 4th grader who know what the word "maneuverability" meant, or knew where Stavelot and the Hurtegen Forrest were.
And then when we started buying computer games, if there were several of the 5 1/2" disks (Ultima3!), or a big manual with lots of tables (PacWar!), you were in for a treat. And then the finally -did- put a stupid rock in the game, remember the "moonstone" enclosed with Ultima 5? [:D]
I told my wife the best part about having our son (who is 9 weeks old today!), is that I'll finally have an opponenet for my Squad Leader and AirForce games (in about 9 years). Well actually, the BIGGEST advantage to having a son, is that he gets to cut my lawn as soon as he can see over the bar, but gaming is a close 2nd (*just kidding*).
And I really, REALLY, really miss Panzer General. I'll tell you what Joel. I'll put World at War on my Christmas list, and you boys at Matrix think about putting Panzer General on yours (to get the rights to republish...?).
[;)]
-F-
"It is obvious that you have greatly over-estimated my regard for your opinion." - Me
RE: Future of games like WITP
I definitely agree about the potential appeal of GGWaW. I'm sure the similiarities to A&A was done purposely to draw attention to the game, but there is so much more there to get your arms around. The logistical model alone finally does justice to a lot of the handicaps faced by the real combatants (you can build the largest armies you are able, but without supplies or resources, you won't be able to do much with them).
Its not WiTP, but its not "beer & pretzels" either. Its a great medium between the two.
Its not WiTP, but its not "beer & pretzels" either. Its a great medium between the two.
Never Underestimate the Power of a Small Tactical Nuclear Weapon...
RE: Future of games like WITP
I am a Professional Engineer with a MBA (More Bad Advice) degree and I have spent 30 year analyzing economic project, I am retired now, most business project are money losers. Most people think that companies making money is an easy situation. I look at all the historical work that the crew put into this game and it is amazing. Sure some OOB may be wrong but look at the size of the game. Compare the lack of detail in something like Korsun Pocket to WITP. The 2x3 crew are motivated by a love of wargaming and I hope it works out well.ORIGINAL: Jmsimer
Well, I think we're really speculating with all these figures. I have to assume Matrix and 2x3 thought they would make money if they sold the game for $70, and who knows whether they estimated the volume correctly. I just hope they do manage to stay around, because there are so few companies making truly good wargames. For the business side of it, if they need some free advice from an MBA student who will work for free (to a point), well, I'm right here! [:D]
RE: Future of games like WITP
Well I tried to ensure the future, but my nephews got caught up in Magic, shootm ups, paint ball and sports. Then I had three daughters, which at least they play computer games, SIMS2 etc. I am teaching my 7 year old LOtR Risk so maybe there is hope. I was taken by surprise that the 30th anniversery of D&D just past, that made me feel old since I started playing that when it first game out.
Well, we may not need any other games since WITP may take up all of my time just playing the standard games. I don't know if I will even find the time to play Tankers mods. Its like I keep telling my wife, all those books and games are for when I retire and I have time to read and play them all.
For the first part: I am only 21 and I play World in Flames with some of my freinds ( who are 23 to 28 years old )
for the second part I am only 21 and I already tell my girlfreind that the 200 dollars I spend on book and games a month is for when I will retire
RE: Future of games like WITP
The average shelf life of a wargame is much longer than that of a standard PC game (which is a max of 3 months).
WITP will quite possibly continue to sell for years.
WITP will quite possibly continue to sell for years.
RE: Future of games like WITP
ORIGINAL: ltfightr
My favorite computer war games:
360
V For Victory: D-Day Utah Beach <== unfortunately can't be played with Windows 95, 98 or XP
I must hold my breath right the V4V series runs on my p4 with xp....
I owed the series on floppy and lost most of them but downloaded it from the underdogs site and it runs ok the only problem I have is with my mouse it moves very slowly.
Too bad that won't work with the Atomic Games/Avalaon Hill version of D-Day:America Invades. I have never been able to get that to work on anything more advanced than 3.1...
"Action springs not from thought, but from a readiness for responsibility.” ― Dietrich Bonhoeffer
RE: Future of games like WITP
I want Panzer General Super Gold Extra Old Style Non-embelished version come out immediatly!!!
Boy, could this game be fun if reworked. Just take the original and, and, make it bigger! And better! Yeah!
Boy, could this game be fun if reworked. Just take the original and, and, make it bigger! And better! Yeah!
RE: Future of games like WITP
The market needs more games like Panzer General. Easy to get into, some eyecandy, not so easy to master.
WITP is very complicated, it is not entry level. I love it, but many are put off by the complexity.
Interest and new customers can only be generated by games that are simple, fun look good, yet somewhat historical. The problem is that these days there is no middle ground. There are the hardcore games like Combat Mission, WITP, the Decisive Battles series. Then there are the games that are even more grognard and have NO graphics (HPS, John Tiller, etc).
On the other side there is Panzers, Afrika Korps - standard RTS with WW2 units.
In between there is NOTHING or very few games (Total War, Spartan). We need historical games that look better and are more accessible to the average guy.
WITP is very complicated, it is not entry level. I love it, but many are put off by the complexity.
Interest and new customers can only be generated by games that are simple, fun look good, yet somewhat historical. The problem is that these days there is no middle ground. There are the hardcore games like Combat Mission, WITP, the Decisive Battles series. Then there are the games that are even more grognard and have NO graphics (HPS, John Tiller, etc).
On the other side there is Panzers, Afrika Korps - standard RTS with WW2 units.
In between there is NOTHING or very few games (Total War, Spartan). We need historical games that look better and are more accessible to the average guy.
-
Joel Billings
- Posts: 33775
- Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2000 8:00 am
- Location: Santa Rosa, CA
- Contact:
RE: Future of games like WITP
ORIGINAL: BlackVoid
In between there is NOTHING or very few games (Total War, Spartan). We need historical games that look better and are more accessible to the average guy.
Check out the Gary Grigsby's World at War forum to see a game that will try to meet the need.
All understanding comes after the fact.
-- Soren Kierkegaard
-- Soren Kierkegaard
RE: Future of games like WITP
Check out the screenshots of our project: http://www.48.hu/letoltes.html
Currently this is only for Hungary but we would like to make an international version for next year with more scenarios (currently we have 5, but all for the same theater - Hungarian Independence War of 1848-49 against Austria+Russia).
It is turn and hex based, supports internet multiplayer, animated 3D units, realistic fatigue, moral and supply rules.
Currently this is only for Hungary but we would like to make an international version for next year with more scenarios (currently we have 5, but all for the same theater - Hungarian Independence War of 1848-49 against Austria+Russia).
It is turn and hex based, supports internet multiplayer, animated 3D units, realistic fatigue, moral and supply rules.