Future of games like WITP

[BlackVoid]

I will buy World at War [:)]

[BossGnome]

heh, I'm 15. More young wargamers. Ps: I also love Total War.

[Tanaka]

ORIGINAL: dereck

I just wish Gary Grigsby would make about the American Civil War on the same scale as "War in the Pacific" -- I'd certainly jump at that game!

yesss!!!! drool..... [:D]

27 here...

[pasternakski]

If Matrix really wants to make some money, it should commission ports of some of the most popular - and now sought after - board games from the Avalon Hill era. Two titles that come to mind are Titan and Magic Realm. These games, in mint condition, regularly bring more than $150 on eBay.

They are complex only because of the detail work that has to be handled by the player (this is particularly true of Magic Realm). With the computer taking care of this number crunching and note taking, these games would become a pleasure, not a challenge, to play. Further, game play is so straightforward (by comparison to the vagaries of WitP and other ambitious designs), a decently competitive AI could probably be constructed.

Do the names "Ambush," "Vietnam," "War and Peace," "Fleet Series," "Civil War" "Up Front" ring a bell ...

[sveint]

I just wish Gary Grigsby would make about the American Civil War on the same scale as "War in the Pacific" -- I'd certainly jump at that game!

European Theatre for me please. WW2/Europe always made the best wargames. [:)]

[pasternakski]

ORIGINAL: sveint
European Theatre for me please. WW2/Europe always made the best wargames. [:)]

Yeah. By the hundreds. Isn't it time to get more creative in game topic selection?

Look, for example, at Victory's solitaire boardgame title "Peloponnesian War." It's brilliant. It solves the AI problem by forcing the human player to change sides from time to time based on success criteria. Think of the implications for computer game AI design!

[Jim D Burns]

ORIGINAL: Tanaka

ORIGINAL: dereck

I just wish Gary Grigsby would make about the American Civil War on the same scale as "War in the Pacific" -- I'd certainly jump at that game!

yesss!!!! drool..... [:D]

27 here...

Can you imagine how awesome a remake of Victory Games strategic civil war title (can't remember name, published in the early 80's) would be on the PC!? GG would have a sure hit with that one, it was one of my all time favorite board games, too bad a roommate swiped it when he moved.

41 here.

Jim

[Jim D Burns]

ORIGINAL: dereck

V For Victory: D-Day Utah Beach <== unfortunately can't be played with Windows 95, 98 or XP [:(]

Try Dosbox. It's a great DOS emulator, I've used it to play the old V4V titles. Takes a little reading (not much, one or two pages) to become proficient with the emulator, but once you've figured it out it's very simple to use. I can play almost all of my old DOS titles with sound and all, it's a great trip down memory lane.

Here's a link: http://dosbox.sourceforge.net/news.php?show_news=1

Jim

[steveh11Matrix]

I'm not sure I agree with the doom and gloom about the future of wargames in this thread, but I do think that the days of turn-based games are numbered. Actually, I'm a little surprised at WitP being turn based, to be honest. Maybe it's because strategy gamers equate "RTS" with "Twitch".

However, "Pauseable Real Time Strategy" works fine. The fact that you can pause makes the "Strategy" part of the title more than a pipe dream, and add a "throttle" allowing you to speed up or slow down when necessary, and you get a really good gaming environment. Instead of "Just one more turn..." you have "Just one more hour..." [:)]

BUT: there's room for lots of variation in just about ALL of human interest! [;)] So I'm not knocking turn based games, no sirree - Heck, I'm playing one! The fact that I have also played HOI, or EUII, or Victoria doesn't detract - they all are great, and I anticipate going back to them when the initial "Love fest" with WitP has worn off. Another couple of months, I expect. Then I'll come back to it again later, like I do to SPWAW every year at some point.

So, that make at least 2 companies, very different both in setup and gamestyle. I doubt very much they'll be the only ones.
I'm an optimist, yes, but one making a judgement based on what I see.

Steve.

[Mynok]

Can you imagine how awesome a remake of Victory Games strategic civil war title (can't remember name, published in the early 80's) would be on the PC!? GG would have a sure hit with that one, it was one of my all time favorite board games, too bad a roommate swiped it when he moved.

Hey! I have that one.... Nice game, with some very interesting strategic conundrums. Would be great fun as a computer version with limited intelligence features.

[sveint]

Isn't it time to get more creative in game topic selection?

Look, for example, at Victory's solitaire boardgame title "Peloponnesian War." It's brilliant.

We were talking about the future of wargames like WITP. The Peloponnesian War will never make a succesful (in economic terms) wargame.

WW2, Civil War and some others will. (Note that I too like different wars/theatres but one has to face the economic realities).

[pasternakski]

ORIGINAL: dereck
Can you imagine how awesome a remake of Victory Games strategic civil war title (can't remember name, published in the early 80's) would be on the PC!?

Jim

I'm with you. It's called "Civil War," and it is about as good as wargame design ever got. The leader rules are without equal, and are, as they should be, the heart of the game.

This highlights a problem with computer simulations and the difficulty with keeping turn-based gaming alive for the PC. A lot of cyber-people think the future is in innovation and RTS. The real solution, for my money, is for developers to find the elegant, sophisticated solutions already developed in boardgames and create ways to adapt them to computer wargames. There's a lot of untapped wisdom out there, folks.

[pasternakski]

ORIGINAL: sveint
We were talking about the future of wargames like WITP. The Peloponnesian War will never make a succesful (in economic terms) wargame.

What is your substantiation for this claim? The movie "Troy" made money in the popular market. "Alexander" is supposed to be a killer at the box office, as well. There seems to be popular interest in the subject. Why do you assert that there is no wargaming interest in it?

BTW, I mentioned this game more for the innovative solitaire system than for the subject matter.

[Cav Trooper]

Actually, I've noticed that alot of my favorite types of games are becoming a dying breed. I love the Flight Sims, most of the ones from Janes. Can't find a great one now, so I'm stuck with the same old routine.

However, I miss the old days of the 15mm Napoleonic Minatures (fought Waterloo 4 times, split Allies won twice, French won Twice), Micro Armor, and Jutland (cardboard pieces and metallic ships). Remember War in the East and War in the West, would set both up in a Friends Basement, start the game and over a year later playing on weekends and some times at night, we went from the start to about mid 43 or so..had a great time. Played alot in the beginning, and then probably 2 or three times a week..

If we look at the vast majority of the Ages here, we all probably had a secondary school system (Junior High, Senior High) that stressed the basics very hard. Political Science, History, Geography, Math, Chem..Physics, etc... now all I hear kids talking about are study halls, optional classes, who's dating who, who is dealing etc...(and I'm a Sgt in the Sheriff's Office, so I also deal with the juvenile and early teen crime also). The basics of education are being dumbed down to push these kids along because parents think their kids are genius's, kids are not lazy, I'm going to sue because my kid got a d or f. Undisciplined, disrespectful, and a host of other issues(my wife teaches elementary school, and hear about the system all the time). Plus, the further we get from actual historical times, WWII, Korean War etc.. and the generation that fought these wars, we're losing perspective on the reality of history. Alot of the people who read the liberal press bemoan the fact that we've lost over 1,000 people over the last 18 months of the current Gulf War. We lost twice that many at Pearl Harbor, many more at places like Tarawa, Makin, Leyte Saipan, Omaha Beach, Air War over Europe, BOB and Korea; but we still functioned as a society, pulled together and supported the effort. Yet, no one has been able to bring that point across. It's really sad in my honest opinion...

But, to the point of the topic, Factors like the above, the instant gratification society that we live in, lack of critical thinking skills being taught in school plus a sensationalistic media, we are a dying breed. I appreciate the efforts of this group and the games that they produce which allows me to relive history, see how it actually unfolded while at the same time delve into the events that actually drove the history I'm attempting to recreate or change. Its a great education. Remember the old saying, "Don't let your studies get in the way of your Education". Well, games like ours are a way to both study and educate ourselves. Too bad the younger generation doesn't understand this. To all those under 25, I don't mean you personally, just in general.

As for new wargames, I'd like to see Terrible Swift Sword (battle of Gettysburg), War in the East, War in the West done, with elements of WITP and BTR mixed in, Korea, and Vietnam. Aerial Warfare done again along the lines of Janes systems, Vietnam with a dynamic campaign, both from a pilots perspective and from a Air Force Airwing commanders point of view.

But, til then, keep up the great work on the current game, and looking forward to the next generation of games like this.

[Zeta16]

I would love to see a Cold War game on the WiTP engine. Also more WWI games on this LEVEL. Also I love turn based games and have never seen the love of shoot-um ups my friends have, since I am some what young at 27 this is what everyone I knows plays. However, my two life long goals are to see a whole world WWII game on the engine type of WiTP and a game of hockey that could start with the start of the NHL and go through present time with a complex draft and fram system that added players each year to draft when the real players came a long. They start with certain levels of skill and improve with you playing them. There would be injuries and trades and all of the good stuff. It would keep every players stats and every teams and have a hall of fame and record book. It would also add teams as they came along in real life. But I guess those last two games are just a dream.

[Titanwarrior89]

I am glad to see younger "wargamers" in here. It will help, I hope too keep the wargaming side of the house open. Also I hope it will help Matrix to continue too grow and grow over the years. We can help by bringing friends, buddies - young and old into our hobby.[:D][;)]

[Titanwarrior89]

They do for me![:'(]

ORIGINAL: pasternakski

If Matrix really wants to make some money, it should commission ports of some of the most popular - and now sought after - board games from the Avalon Hill era. Two titles that come to mind are Titan and Magic Realm. These games, in mint condition, regularly bring more than $150 on eBay.

They are complex only because of the detail work that has to be handled by the player (this is particularly true of Magic Realm). With the computer taking care of this number crunching and note taking, these games would become a pleasure, not a challenge, to play. Further, game play is so straightforward (by comparison to the vagaries of WitP and other ambitious designs), a decently competitive AI could probably be constructed.

Do the names "Ambush," "Vietnam," "War and Peace," "Fleet Series," "Civil War" "Up Front" ring a bell ...

[Dereck]

My 2 cents is that computer combat simulations at the strategic level like WiTP cannot be real time. There is simply too much planning and THINKING involved in each turn.

If you want a "real time" game play a tactical level game where you're a tank commander or ground pounder.

[Dereck]

I have a series of board games from Game Designers' Workshop I bought back in the late 1970's and a few in the early 1980's called the Europa series. They were a series of individual games that, when put together would be able to have played the ENTIRE European theatre of world war two. The maps were all of the same scale so in theory you could put them all together and play one big gigantic campaign.

From reading this thread further I now have dreams of two games on the scale of WiTP - the American Civil War (again) and World War I in Europe. I'm sure the Civil War game would probably only have a big market in the United States, but who knows?

[ColFrost]

Pausing a RTS game is not the same as turn based, because it still depends on dexterity. You still have to click the right button if/when you notice the enemy force closing in. It's still dexterity based, and some of us are not dexterity skilled.

Give me turn based every time!