Future of games like WITP

[coralsaw]

WiTP is definitely a labour of love. To me, possibly to many forum regulars as well, the price tag was absolutely justified especially considering the price/hour ratio. The main cash flow problem with such monster games is twofold though: a) small audience, b) one-off payment model.

The best one can do regarding the first issue is to expand the market, be it by dumbing down the game (God forbid!), spending more on marketing and distribution, or making the game more attractive for the mass market (easier interface, more eye candy, learn while you play stuff etc).

Regarding the second issue, perhaps changing the payment model is in order. This could mean either re-using the engine in new theatres ala SSG, Tiller etc, or charging for new upgrades and versions of the game (not fixes!). I personally wouldn't mind paying 30%-50% of the tag price for each new major upgrade to the engine (stressing the word 'major'here).

If I could come up with an (unsolicited) suggestion though, it would be for 2by3 to let go of the things they are not good at while making money doing it. Zoomie talked about it some time ago, and being a software engineer myself I can see it happening. What I hate most about WiTP, but have gotten used to is the homemade user interface. I'd love to see and pay full price for a re-done standard Windows interface that fully exports all data, imports order scripts, is moddable and in general makes micromanagent a non-issue. Please 2by3, think about creating a WiTP packaged engine and license it to somebody (or do it inhouse) that has lots of experience with usability and game interface rolling. And call it "WiTP deluxe". [;)]

Yeah, I'd love that and pay good money for it.

Regards

/coralsaw

[steveh11Matrix]

ORIGINAL: RevRick

ACTION STATIONS!!!! I really wish someone would update that game. The graphics (such as they are) are antique, the UI is abysmal, and controlling the few AC in the game is ridiculous, but the data are thorough, the concept is great, and the AI was a bear at that time.

It was a great time sweating out the tension of being in the Combat Information Center on a flagship in battle - usually at night. My favorite battle was Savo Island, followed closely by First Guadalcanal.

Actions Stations! is still my all-time favourite turn-based WW2 naval game. That's kind've a narrow field, it's true, but still...I haven't played a better one.
Agree entirely about it's defects, but it still 'works' - and is capable of surprising the heck out of me at times.

It's still around here somewhere, probably zipped up and hived off onto a CD, but I do still have it.

Steve.

[ZOOMIE1980]

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

ORIGINAL: ColFrost

Pausing a RTS game is not the same as turn based, because it still depends on dexterity. You still have to click the right button if/when you notice the enemy force closing in. It's still dexterity based, and some of us are not dexterity skilled.

Give me turn based every time!

RTS is for kids. They can be fun, don't get me wrong, but as ColFrost says, turn based is the big daddy for us real wargamers.

What about that mixed breed thing, like Shogun Total War? It was both turn-based and RTS. Never really got into the game that much, but I thought the concept was very clever and can see a future for it. Strategic implementation is all turn based but you have the option to drop down to RTS mode to fight the battles or just let the computer resolve it.

Kind of liked old Harpoon's model some as well, where you could alter the rate at which time went by depending on how busy things got.

[Nikademus]

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

Only during the resolution phase after all the planning is done, and then only for the defender. Basically a hybrid turn based game

This is how Combat Mission works too....the only semi-RTS wargame i own and one i actually like though Steel Panthers will always be my first love. That and because being a SP vet of so many years....i positively SUCK at Combat Mission. I cant even win using King Tigers!!!!!!!!

[crsutton]

Well, I for one think that WITP has pushed the edge a bit. It is fine product-one of the best I hae seen. But it is also massive in scope and not for new players. Its a game for the experienced. I can't imagine many new or young players jumping right in. You must be a student of the the Pacific conflict and I think it is taken for granted that most players will understand the basic stragetic and political considerations involved. That is gonna limit your playing population.

That said, I don't think you can expect many games to enter the market that are on the scope and scale of WITP. Nothing wrong with that. In my opinion we are experiencing a second golden age of wargaming. The first came in the late 70s and early 80s.

It is happening again but it a direct result of computers and the internet. Computers have added so much. First of all, as a old boardgamer, you don't know how much I appreciate, "fog of war". It was virtually impossible to design this into board games. Now it is reality and makes wargames so much better. Also the internet has opened up a whole new world for me with email and on line gaming. In the past my pool of partners was severly restricted to driving range. Now I have gaming friends all over the world! How great is that?[;)]

The second great result of the internet is that it has allowed small companys such as Matrix to prosper. The intenet allows for a simplier marketing with less overhead. It also create great word of mouth buzz and allows for better communication within commutities. As a result, there have been some great products come out in recent years. UV, WitP and many other great titles from Matrix, HPS simulations excellent Panzer Campaigns series, Battlefront's delightful Combat Mission series, and for simmers the just stunning IL2-Forgotten Battles (from a Russian designer). And there are more titles that others love that I have not been able to even try out. The one common thing about all of these companies is that they fully support their products with patch after patch based on feedback from the people that play them. The games actually get better with age! They are building customer loyalty and as a result are producing an incredible flow of diverse and quality products.

To me, a gamer for close to 40 years, the future has never looked brighter. You will not see many products like WITP, but then again, you don't have the time for many products like WITP. But you are gonna see some fine stuff come out. There are new games coming out daily, that are just blowing me away. Stuff, that was beyond my scope of imagination even ten years ago.

Thanks Matrix guys! Rock on![&o]

By the way, I love 1st person shooters as well. They are fun as all hell. My life is nothing but open doors.[;)]

[crsutton]

ORIGINAL: 3rd ACR Tanker

Actually, I've noticed that alot of my favorite types of games are becoming a dying breed. I love the Flight Sims, most of the ones from Janes. Can't find a great one now, so I'm stuck with the same old routine.

.

Do you have "Forgotten Battles"? Its one heck of a sim.

[anarchyintheuk]

Never played Shogun Total War but I loved the Medieval one. Harpoon's system was excellent. I would have liked to have seen if they were going to make any changes to it. Unfortunately, last I time I checked Harpoon IV was still in the toilet.

[UncleBuck]

I play IL_2 FB now, and can't wait to pick up Pacific Fighters with the rest of my squad. One of my favorite war games was Great Naval Battles series and Close Combat.

Another great one I still have and if I coudl get it to play woudl still play was Carriers at WAr by SSG. That was a great game.

UB

[medicff]

ORIGINAL: coralsaw

Regarding the second issue, perhaps changing the payment model is in order. This could mean either re-using the engine in new theatres ala SSG, Tiller etc, or charging for new upgrades and versions of the game (not fixes!). I personally wouldn't mind paying 30%-50% of the tag price for each new major upgrade to the engine (stressing the word 'major'here).

I don't mind the price tag for a great game. But as the games get more complex then comes the question of support to get out the bugs and making the game enjoyable. Knowing such a process of removing all the bugs before mass playtesters (the buyers) is not a realistic option then at least we need commitment from all companies like Matrix to support the product. It really does suck to pluck down $70.00 on a great game only to find it frustrating and unplayable after a short time (not to mention your time invested in playing the game). There comes the large uncertainity of whether to pay or pass as more than once I have been burned with very promising games. I hate to point fingers because overall I am very happy with Matrix games who are much better than most, but UV is such a game that just didn't quite get out all the bugs and problems because WITP loomed over the horizon. Which, lets face it, probably was a financially based decision to keep the revenue coming in. (called business). Therefore I don't know that I support "Upgrades/new versions" to continue the revenue when I believe the product should have been complete for the initial price offering.

[sveint]

Never even seen anyone else from Norway on this forum! Hallo?

I'm Norwegian. Live abroad.

[Frank W.]

ORIGINAL: medicff

ORIGINAL: coralsaw

Regarding the second issue, perhaps changing the payment model is in order. This could mean either re-using the engine in new theatres ala SSG, Tiller etc, or charging for new upgrades and versions of the game (not fixes!). I personally wouldn't mind paying 30%-50% of the tag price for each new major upgrade to the engine (stressing the word 'major'here).

I don't mind the price tag for a great game. But as the games get more complex then comes the question of support to get out the bugs and making the game enjoyable. Knowing such a process of removing all the bugs before mass playtesters (the buyers) is not a realistic option then at least we need commitment from all companies like Matrix to support the product. It really does suck to pluck down $70.00 on a great game only to find it frustrating and unplayable after a short time (not to mention your time invested in playing the game). There comes the large uncertainity of whether to pay or pass as more than once I have been burned with very promising games. I hate to point fingers because overall I am very happy with Matrix games who are much better than most, but UV is such a game that just didn't quite get out all the bugs and problems because WITP loomed over the horizon. Which, lets face it, probably was a financially based decision to keep the revenue coming in. (called business). Therefore I don't know that I support "Upgrades/new versions" to continue the revenue when I believe the product should have been complete for the initial price offering.

i think wargames on this scale are (perhaps?) a too big project
to get them bug free and then even provide a good AI...

see also HOI.....

i noticed that shooter games like MOHAA ( while still this game has a little appeal to wargamers, too ) were quite bug free with ver. 1.0 or so. i think wargames are just much more difficult to develop. while you have nicer graphic in shooters the routines, interface and design of wargames perhaps even need more effort from the programmers side (?)

my fave (war)games or sims were/are:

steel panthers
harpoon
silent service
red lightning
conflict middle east
second front/war in russia

there was also a game for the amiga named " strike fleet"
this was a game in which you commanded fleets in the
cold war ( nato - wp )....

also i remember "theatre europe" which i played quite often.

i still have much of the amiga games lying around, wonder
if they still work [:'(]

also i remember 2 games with very bad graphics and interface,
but strategical quite worthwhile: "USAAF" ( you had to command
the allied air campaign ) and "warship(s)" or "battleship(s)" ( commanding fleets in WW1 )....

the panzer general series never caught my attention
very much the same with the combat mission games.

[Sonny]

ORIGINAL: Zeta16

..................................

and a game of hockey that could start with the start of the NHL and go through present time

.........................

Its easy to do one for the present time.[;)][:D]

[Desertmole]

Hey PzB, you think Norway is bad, try Saudi Arabia. Talk about no opponents. Only had 1 in 12 years.[:@]

I'm 53 and have been playing since 1963. As to the future of wargaming, I think we will be ok if we try to bring others in.

I started gaming in 1963, when I got a copy of Parker's 1863. This was followed by the MB games Broadsides, Dogfight and Battlecry. Owned at least half a dozen AH games by the time I was out of high school, and really got into games while at VMI. We played all sorts of stuff from SPI and AH to Seapower II (w/ 1250 ships) and Tractics (w/ minitanks). Designed several of our own when we couldn't find one on a subject we wanted.

My first computer game was Panzers East for the C-64. I got my 8 year old hooked on Strike Fleet for the C-64, and then Harpoon for the PC. He's now 25 and an avid gamer who probably buys 1-2 games a month.

Got my youngest (now 6) hooked on games when he was 3. He loved to sit on my lap and watch me play Steel Panthers, and tried to play the newer version of Reach for the Stars. He now loves War of the Rings, and I predict he will be firmly hooked as well. My next effort will be my 4 year old daughter, though she is less interested in computers than her brother.

My personal favorites were Strike Fleet, Harpoon (and 2002), all the Steel Panthers variants, Reach for the Stars, the Battleground series, the GNB series (1942 was my favorite), Operational Art of War and now UV.

C'mon Guys, you need to do your part!

[MadmanRick]

I seems to me that the lack of interest in wargames is a fairly complex problem. It isn't as simple as stating that RTS games or Nintendo have taken away their interest, although this is surely a truism. I think it also has to do with the fact that for anyone under the age of 30, Vietnam is ancient history not to mention the Second World War. Also keep in mind that with history revisionism, not as much emphasis is truly placed upon the Second World War nowadays. I mean I remember growing up and after studying WW2, I searched out every book I could find (particularly on the Pacific Theatre). You rarely find that type of interest anymore. The wargaming hobby is far from alone in this type of problem, scale modelling is also going through the exact same thing. That hobby also tends to blame its' woes on video games et al, but again I think the problem is much more complex.
For most of us, we read about the wars in school, then we came across the books and then later the great board games drew us in and we were hooked for life. Nowadays, you aren't as likely to spend a month or more learning about WW2, the books are there, but how many libraries can afford to have the selection that they had when we were young? I won't even start with the lack of great board games. I mean I love computer games, but nothing can replace having those maps/counters in front of you. I used to just look at all the different counters from my games (when I couldn't find an opponent) and dream of them (ok, so I'm a freak). But, mere sprites on a screen can't quite attract the way those cardboard and paper items could. I'll never forget the first time I saw SPI's War In The Pacific actually set up, I finally TRULY realized how huge the Pacific theatre really was! Before that I knew, but I didn't know. So anyway, that is my take on some of the problem and I am sure that I didn't touch on the complete issue.

Rick

P.S. To illustrate what I mean about counters etc, I own the complete set of Assault games by GDW, although I've never actually played that game (too complex, no opponent etc). I can tell you however, that the counters a fairly worn from me spending SO much time going through them and handling them!

[Curtis Lemay]

One problem with WITP's marketing that I discovered when discussing it with another experienced wargamer is the lack of a demo. He wasn't willing to venture $70-80 on it without getting a test ride.

A small demo version, perhaps permitting players to carry out the Pearl Harbor attack, for example, might generate a big payoff.

[2ndACR]

A Demo covering the attack on PH would last about 2 minutes and not even give them a taste of the game.

They want a demo, tell them to buy UV. If they like that, they will love WITP. There is the Demo.

[rhondabrwn]

ORIGINAL: 3rd ACR Tanker
As for new wargames, I'd like to see Terrible Swift Sword (battle of Gettysburg), War in the East, War in the West done, with elements of WITP and BTR mixed in, Korea, and Vietnam. Aerial Warfare done again along the lines of Janes systems, Vietnam with a dynamic campaign, both from a pilots perspective and from a Air Force Airwing commanders point of view.

But, til then, keep up the great work on the current game, and looking forward to the next generation of games like this.

Actually Terrible Swift Sword has been done. Talonsoft's "Gettysburg" title in their Battleground series certainly looked and felt like a great port of the SPI monster game. In fact, the entire series was great... Shiloh, Antietam, Bull Run, and Chicamauga plus the four Napoleonic titles. And the really neat thing was the way designer John Tillett programmed a 32 bit patch and posted it on his website to update the games alolng with an editor package!

They are getting hard to find these days, but what a treasure.

[rhondabrwn]

ORIGINAL: UncleBuck

I play IL_2 FB now, and can't wait to pick up Pacific Fighters with the rest of my squad. One of my favorite war games was Great Naval Battles series and Close Combat.

Another great one I still have and if I coudl get it to play woudl still play was Carriers at WAr by SSG. That was a great game.

UB

Ah yes, the Great Naval Battles series... I would love to see that series updated and brought back, especially Volume III (Pacific Carrier Warfare), but done better than the original. Just a thought, but could you imagine fighting out the WITP surface battles with a "jump into the turret" option using something like Great Naval Battles?

Oh, and someone mentioned finding the oldest gamer earlier... I'm 57 and started with the original Avalon Hill Gettysburg back in 1962.

[siRkid]

ORIGINAL: dereck

I got my start with the old Avalon Hill board war games back in the late 1970s most of which I still own.

My favorite computer war games:

360
V For Victory: D-Day Utah Beach <== unfortunately can't be played with Windows 95, 98 or XP [:(]

Avalon Hill
Operation Crusader
Stalingrad

Swfte International
Gettysburg

Interactive Magic
American Civil War: From Sumter to Appomattox

SSI
War in Russia
Pacific War
Conflict: Korea
Second Front: Germany Turns East
Western Front: The Liberation of Europe 1944-1945

Unfortunately games like these are a dying breed. Instead of the flashy shoot 'em up type games these need actual THOUGHT to play. There's exceptions to what I'm about to say which is that the majority of people below 30 don't seem to have the patience or aptitude for "mental" games. They want instant gratification of blowing someone or something up. Lack of imagination? My generation grew up without computers or computer games ... the box a refrigerator or dryer came in was a good play thing for a good part of two weeks. My generation saw the box as a potential fort, club house, hideaway, etc ... generations now only have the imagination to see a box [:(]

It's a shame too because games that make someone think and plan are far more enjoyable -- in my opinion at least -- than ones that depend only on reflex.

End of my soapbox statement [:-]

What no Talonsoft games on your list?

[freeboy]

Hey Kid, great to see you up and running, all cleaned up from the storm?