Presidential Patch or Matrix Elections?

[Frank W.]

interestingly it seems some US posters have similar problems with their leading politicians like we with ours in germany.... [X(]

i guess you must chose the lesser of 2 evils....

[Frank W.]

ORIGINAL: Tankerace

Especially the ones who want the US to ask permission to defend itself. The ones who denounce the war because we didn't find WMD (and they disregard that we found the capability to make WMD), but made us doddle 14 months, giving France and Germany's ol' buddy Saddam time to stash his WMD.

[:-] saddam also was an old buddy of the US of A.

a little reminder ( guess i don´t have to dig out the pics from rumsfeld shaking hands and smiling with saddam ? )

[Tankerace]

Yeah, he was an ol' buddy. But we never took kickbacks from him either. We sold him a bunch of weapons, and then when we realised he was the enemy, in 1991 we weren't hesitant to kick his a**.

To the Germans and French, I am not saying your countries are corrupt. My argument is against the United Nations, and the people that run it. I do not believe that the majoity of the French and German people endorsed or condoned the kickbacks being taken.

[von Murrin]

ORIGINAL: Frank W.

interestingly it seems some US posters have similar problems with their leading politicians like we with ours in germany.... [X(]

i guess you must chose the lesser of 2 evils....

I prefer to think of it as the evil of two lessers.[;)]

[Williamb]

Back in 1975, Saddam Hussein (center) was accompanied by Jacques Chirac (wearing glasses), then France's prime minister, on a tour of a nuclear power station.


Chriac and Sadaam when Sadaam became President of Iraq.

[RUPD3658]

ORIGINAL: William Amos



Back in 1975, Saddam Hussein (center) was accompanied by Jacques Chirac (wearing glasses), then France's prime minister, on a tour of a nuclear power station.


Chriac and Sadaam when Sadaam became President of Iraq.

I guess we should be thanking the Israelis for taking out the reactor. Got to love a country that could care less about public opinion and just worries about it's own safety. We could learn a thing or two from them.

[madmickey]

ORIGINAL: forranger

How many hours does the average all-american voter spend in front of his/her TV? How big was the swing in polls after vietnam veterans started picking on Kerry in sponsored ads? The effect can be measured, and it was in a two digit range, no?

I really do not want to get into politics (and waste my time) but a Swiss lurker who has really only posted on political points
To The Swiss who allowed Italian Jews to be transported in rail car through Switzerland on the way to the death camp
To this Swiss who were banker to Nazis and refused to pay Jewish survivor their deposit until The USA applied pressure (I am Canuck) do not insult the American in general.

[Tophat]

Frank W.

saddam also was an old buddy of the US of A.


Yea,Saddam was killing Iranians....and keeping iranians out of UAE and Saudi.....remember that quick little easy victory saddam tried to score off Iran after the Shaw decamped? So we used ole saddam........used 'em like a cheap pair of shoes....and it worked.We also saved access to that nice oil for you freeloading europerfectionists........your hypocracy still turns my stomach.

[madmickey]

Tankerace what authorized weapons did the American sell Iraq? I am not criticizing you; my country Canada probably sold more. They had Soviet planes, missles, guns and Tanks, They had French planes, and The French were still trying to sell certain weapons even in 2003. The South African shipped artillery. They had Chinesse missle and radar system.

[Tankerace]

All I know is we gave them ammo, and a bunch of surplus crap. I don't kow details, but I know we did it because at the time (late 1980's) we considered Iran the bigger threat, and we were trying to make sure Iraq didn't go under during the Iran-Iraq war.

[Tankerace]

Oh Forranger, while it seems I do have some support in this, I want to ask you a question. earlier, you said :

Just one question in this context: Why is footage on returning coffins and badly injured soldiers from Iraq systematically suppressed? I know of no other example of such willing (self-)censorship in another free country. Is this a liberal attitude or does it benefit conservatives guessing that their reasons for this war were too weak for the public to support this mounting casualty list?

Here is the answer. Here in America, we don't have to see our brave troops bodies to know they are dying. But we also know this. For every 1 or 2, or 5 or 10 that do give the ultimate sacrifice, then 100, 200, 500, or 1000 Kurds or Iraqis don't have to die. You seem to zero in on the fact that we didn't find tons of WMDs as meaning there was no reason to go into Iraq. What about the fact that Saddam was using the Oil-for-Food program to rebuild his capacity to build WMDs? What about the fact that documents have revealed that as soon as the sanctions were lifted he was going to build WMDs? I don't know how it is in Switzerland, where no one really gives a thought about your country, let alone wanting to kill anyone in it. But here in America, where someone you don't even know half way around the globe wants to kill you, kill your family, and destroy your way of life, you want to get the bombs before they can be used, or better yet stop them from being made.

If that is not good enough, what about all the murdered Iraqis? You claim you are a news editor. I am sure then you saw the videos of the mass graves, the murdered women, the tortured children, and the gassed kurds. Did not their dying in the hundreds curdle your stomach? Thanks to America, they don't have to wonder each day "Do I die today." Children can go to school. They can see doctors. They can live.

People talk of the injustices at Guantanamo Bay. I have a friend who's father works there. Those priosners eat more, get better health care, and generally lead better lives than what they ever did in Iraq or Afganistan. Now, lets look at what happens to American POWs. They are killed. They are beheaded. Or, in the case of Pvt. Jessica Lynch, they are raped. And you sir, have the gaul to insult Americans? You from the country that in the 1940's took kickbacks from the Nazis? I respect your opinions. But sometimes, you make me sick sir.

So my question to you: How do you cope with the fact that the arsenal of weapons of mass distruction in Iraq has turned out to be non-existent? And do you still believe that there was a link between Saddam and Al Qaida and 9/11? Are you happy with how things turned out in Iraq after the military victory? Do you really think this has lead to more sympathy towards the US in the potential pool of terrorists? If not, how can you still support Bush with his war on terror strategy?

See my things earlier in theis post reagarding the WMDs. I do believe there was a link between Saddam and Al Qaida. And, even if there wasn't, they were still terrorism. We don't want the Terrorists sympathy, Mr. Forranger. We want them to give up terrorism, and lead peaceful lives. Am I happy with how things turned out? Not totally. I didn't expect Iraq to be so chalk full of terrorists as it is. But, I suppose that in itself reinforces my beliefs. The fact that all these terrorist groups in Iraq prove there had to be a link of some kind. But I am happy about the fact that many Iraqi men, women, and children don't have to live in a perpetual state of fear from the regime in power.

[madmickey]

The use of Iraq against Iran strategy was initially proposed by Jimmy Carter and his national security advisor Z Brezhniski (sic)

[2ndACR]

I have been trying to decide if I wanted to jup in this thread, and I do, but this really needs to be in the Steakhouse.

Over there, we can argue politics and what the bad old US has done wrong this time till we are blue in the face. I would suggest the mods lock this up. Otherwise I may have to uncork some REAL right wing mud slinging on some Europeans and Lefty's.

Bush rules and Kerry is a Traitor to this country.

[Tankerace]

Here Here, 2ndACR! Thank God I am not alone anymore.

[2ndACR]

Never alone, but I did not want to get on a roll in this forum. I prefer this one to stay the nuetral ground. But if they feel froggy to come on over to the Steakhouse and play, then that is a whole different ball of wax.

For the uninitiated of you, on the main forum page at the bottom is a hyper link to the Steakhouse. We can get as rough as you like over there.

[madmickey]

Tankerace do not forget that Hitler used Swiss rail to transport Italian Jews to death camps and it was only USA pressure that forced Swiss bank to pay Jewish survivor. Of Course the Swiss were a big help in the fall of the Iron Curtain even though they are an extremely heavily armoured country.

[Tankerace]

True, I forgot about that. I don't think that Switzerland is a bad country, but I don't believe people in it have any right to insult Americans, or any other country for that matter.

I agree though, lets shift it to there. While we are all entitled to our opinions, I feel this might be becoming too heated, and I have no desire to offend or insult anyone, regardless of the insults they have or may throw at me.

[Tankerace]

Hrm, my browser isn't wanting to let me go to the steakhouse. A liberal-Communist conspiracy! [:D] I hate IE sometimes.

[madmickey]

Tankerace as I said I do not want to get invovled in politics, but the Swiss lurker really pissed me off. I still do not want to waste a lot of time hear not talking about the game, sport or other friendly matters (beer).

[Tankerace]

That's what got me too. Remember, I'm the guy he said was Brain-washed, because I don't think Kerry is, to use an American phrase, "All that and a bag of chips."