Will the release of the Patch Affect the Elections?

[forranger]

ORIGINAL: rhondabrwn

If Bush wins I'll be too upset to play anything for awhile. Emigration to New Zealand seems increasingly attractive... though Switzerland sounds nice too. [:D]

All countries have their positive and negative aspects. Switzerland can be pretty boring too.... On weekdays most bars have to close at 11:30pm for the night for example.... [&:]

[freeboy]

Yup, I agree. I haven't seen the US so divided in quite some time. Time for civil war 2? I am not commenting on who I think should win, but whoever does will have a lot of homefront work to do.

Unfortunately each party to some degree has become "good" in their own eye and vilyfied the oponents... rather than seeking unity and a "we dissagree but we are working together "attitude!The nation is terribley split up, perhaps as much as in the Viet war.. if possible. I saw some JK supporters exercising there rights with signs on a corner, as the light was red, several cars started saying anti JK statement.. then they in turn started getting yelled at... I thought I was going to see a brawl, seriously. I do have strong convictions, but if you don't agree it doesn't make you bad.. just ill informed lol

[foliveti]

lol
Ohio now will let you cheat, but the law cannot be enforced after Democrate Judge rules partisan fact checkers at polls may hinder right to vote .. imagine that,

"Hay Freddy, you still using that old Id that shows you as a 24 year old chick? Ya, but thats ok cause the workers here know me... and Freddy and Fricka sound the same"

Over heard in the future polls of OHIO

Just for the record a Republican judge issued the same ruling in OHIO

[IronDuke_slith]

ORIGINAL: Belphegor

ORIGINAL: IronDuke


Re the elections, (leaving out some of the politics) what has scared me more than some of the candidates has been how divided America has become. Whoever gets in tomorrow will be roundly detested by something approaching half the country. It doesn't bode well.

Regards,
IronDuke

Yup, I agree. I haven't seen the US so divided in quite some time. Time for civil war 2? I am not commenting on who I think should win, but whoever does will have a lot of homefront work to do.

I've got the turns and will be sending them shortly. Re this, I've always classed the revolution as a civil war, so they might be heading for their third one.

I do think they need to take a deep breath and step back. I saw one Republican on the BBC declare he couldn't follow Kerry to war. I don't use the example to have a go at Republicans, I'm sure you could find Democrats who wouldn't follow Bush into the fight, but it's a slippery slope from positions like this to civil disobediance etc. Since a good number of states are solid one way or the other, with the balance of power held by a handful of swing states, it's not inconceivable some states might start proving difficult for a President to govern. They seem to have several layers of government, any one of which could act up. Do Americans still consider themselves Virginians, or Californians first and Americans second?

IronDuke

[2ndACR]

ORIGINAL: rhondabrwn

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR

ORIGINAL: rhondabrwn

If Bush wins I'll be too upset to play anything for awhile. Emigration to New Zealand seems increasingly attractive... though Switzerland sounds nice too. [:D]

See what I mean? I will be at the airport to see you off and good riddance.

Politics, take it to the Steakhouse. Mods, you need to lock this up.

Just had to say it to see how many of this kind of response I would receive.

Anyway, I'm too old for New Zealand citizenship and can't afford Switzerland.

Bad place for it. That would be called "trolling" for a fight or argument.

Once again this need to be locked before it gets ugly.

[Williamb]

I doubt its as bad as it seems.

Shame its so close if one or the other had a clear mandate then might be different.

Hell even Clinton never got more than 49% of the vote in any of his elections.

Thing is even if Kerry is elected he faces almost certainly a Republican COngress and Senate. The will Block any moves he makes domestically.

[Tophat]

Oh really? Odd with all the hyp flying that I hadn't heard. Was there an explanation on how any form of oversight or checking was to be done? Do you have any idea how crazy its getting here? Untill this past weekend i had no idea this vote was going to set correct the issue of racism and slavery?

Post the link to the steakhouse again please!

Why do non-U.S members egg this on then complain thread will be started at steakhose as soon as i get the link!

[Point Luck]

I haven't seen the US so divided in quite some time.

1964 - 1973 The Southeast Asia World Tour

[Bosun]

We stand at a crossroads; ahead lies an America unafraid to do the right thing versus a country which has deteriorated into merely doing things right. Choose carefully. I deal with the aftermath of war on very personal level; I care for these men and women whom have placed their lives in harm's way and have been harmed. Grieviously. I have cried and prayed with them and with their families. How can you justify it? Only if we, as a nation, come together and help those freedom seeking Iraqis create a viable State in Iraq will the enormous sacrifice made by our vets mean anything beyond honor in discharging their duty to serve. There is a terrible ravening force loose in the world and it is focused on us. We must be united to face it. I ask that no matter who is elected you will join with all Americans in presenting a unified front to the world and to our enemies. This will strengthen us and weaken our foes. We owe it to our troops abroad and to our children whom are waiting to serve. Is this impossible? NO! Have we done it before? YES! Will we give "aid and comfort" to those who wish only to shed our blood and destroy our way of life? We will all speak tomorrow at the polls. When it is done some will drink the heady wine of victory and others sour wine. Do not, I pray, let the results of the election turn you away from America. We are all family, we are all countrymen. We are bound together by the sacrifice of blood and life spent by all those millions who came before so that we could be free. Let all of us rejoice that we are free, that we are Americans.

Bosun

[forranger]

ORIGINAL: IronDuke

Alright, what about cuckoo clocks, then? I personally wouldn't buy one made in Taiwan. The Bahamas accounts will also not be as interesting as yours. I thought a lot of them had been opened during the last war by all sorts of nameless persons.

I thought cuckoo clocks are a german specialty (Schwarzwälder Uhren)? May be wrong.

As for bank accounts: It's a nice example that sometimes outside views and inputs can produce nice results. Most of Swiss citizen were disgusted to learn how the bankers had handled holocaust accounts and nazi gold. That's why a committee of historians dealt with Swiss history after 1933 until after WWII. Lessons were learned, laws changed, bankers were forced to become more sensitive, and today we probably have the most advanced laws dealing with dictator money for example.

Other countries still refuse to deal with black spots in their history. It's always easier to point fingers somewhere else than to do your own homework.....

[rhondabrwn]

The comment about how bitterly divided this country has become was right on the mark. You can count on continuing political civil war regardless of who wins. If Bush wins re-election the battle to stop his destructive policies will only intensify and we'll be harassing and obstructing and protesting every day till the next election cycle. Unfortunately, I suspect that a Kerry victory is going to mobilize the right to conduct their own political civil war.

My own greatest fear was the thought of seeing hordes of Kerry and Bush supporters battling in the streets and using their signs as clubs. Fortunately, things never got that nasty. We only get that serious about sporting events it seems.

My own personal reflection is that this feels like 1968 all over again. The right wing slogan of that time was: "America... Love It or Leave It" but eventually it was the anti-war movement who triumphed. Iraq is our new Viet Nam and it's going to require a great Triumph (which I doubt) or a devastating Loss (more likely) to pull America off dead-center in the political spectrum. Unfortunately, it will probably take 10,000 more American lives and God knows how many Iraqi civilian deaths before reality finally sinks in to enough people to shift the political balance in a meaningful way.



[:(]

[Admiral DadMan]

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR

The patch needs to be put off until the swearing in ceremony of Bush.

I continue swearing until the patch is released

[DrewMatrix]

Yup, I agree. I haven't seen the US so divided in quite some time.

I agree. I have been reading about the 1860 election. There are a lot of similarities. In that election too the country was severely divided and the side that lost refused to accept the result. It could happen again, particularly if the vote is close (again) and litigateed (again).

[Williamb]

Not ot get drawn further into this debate but..

how did the anti war movement win in 1968 ? Richard Nixon was elected then and he and the anti war people battled on for years after.

It only made him parinoid and helped ot cause water gate.

If anything the anti war movement paralized this nations for a decade. And is poised to do so again.

[Bosun]

America first! Political differences pale in importance when our troops lives are on the line. Try to get and/or maintain perspective on what is truely at stake here. Nothing less than the survival of our nation as our forefathers envisioned it. "If we donot hang together, we will certainly hang separately." Patrick Henry I believe.[:-]

[Reiryc]

If anything the anti war movement paralized this nations for a decade. And is poised to do so again.

Bingo...

[IronDuke_slith]

ORIGINAL: forranger

ORIGINAL: IronDuke

Alright, what about cuckoo clocks, then? I personally wouldn't buy one made in Taiwan. The Bahamas accounts will also not be as interesting as yours. I thought a lot of them had been opened during the last war by all sorts of nameless persons.

I thought cuckoo clocks are a german specialty (Schwarzwälder Uhren)? May be wrong.

As for bank accounts: It's a nice example that sometimes outside views and inputs can produce nice results. Most of Swiss citizen were disgusted to learn how the bankers had handled holocaust accounts and nazi gold. That's why a committee of historians dealt with Swiss history after 1933 until after WWII. Lessons were learned, laws changed, bankers were forced to become more sensitive, and today we probably have the most advanced laws dealing with dictator money for example.

Other countries still refuse to deal with black spots in their history. It's always easier to point fingers somewhere else than to do your own homework.....

I sense this is about to be locked very quickly, so I'll just say we tend not to do our own homework in this country too often. We're forever being asked to apologise for something or other. This week the news is full of the Queen who won't be apologising for the Bomber offensive over Germany. The month before we were asked to apologise for not doing enough to help the uprising in Warsaw in late 44.

I can't think of anything worthy of criticism we've done in Switzerland so I'd hope we're still welcome there. Provided you bring cheese, you're more than welcome over here.

Regards,
IronDuke

[Point Luck]

If anything the anti war movement paralized this nations for a decade. And is poised to do so again

My only fear is reliving those times again. My dad was stationed at Pearl Harbour on Dec 7th my uncle in Phillipines I will never forget the look in thier faces on Sept 11, 2001

[forranger]

ORIGINAL: IronDuke
I can't think of anything worthy of criticism we've done in Switzerland so I'd hope we're still welcome there. Provided you bring cheese, you're more than welcome over here.

I'll take along an excellent white wine with it.

I see the core of many conflicts in double standards. Preaching water while drinking wine (remark: no swiss white wine), and primarily pursuing your own ends without regard on how many and who's toes you step on in the process..... Be it on the personal, national or international level. [:(]

[rhondabrwn]

And I should add that I served two years in Viet Nam with the 11th Armored Cavalry Regiment so I've seen a futile war up close and personal. I've had decades to reflect on what lessons I've learned from my life experiences during those days.

Lessons learned?

You can't impose a government on a people or nation at the point of a gun. You can't put enough troops into a country to suppress opposition.

Ultimately, people have to be responsible for their own government, good or bad. The best we can do is try to keep outsiders from fanning the flames.

No matter how noble the intentions, the ultimate cost of imposing a solution (or trying too) must be weighed against what would have happened without the intervention. In Vietnam, for example, we were certainly wearing the "white hat" in attempting to stave off the Communists, but ultimately the country was reunited under North Vietnamese leadership just as it would have been if we had stayed out, but think how many millions of Vietnamese lives were lost during the war... plus the lives of our American troops and our allies. I think it is very telling that Robert McNamara, Secretary of War under Johnson, would later bitterly regret his role in escalating the Vietnam conflict. It wouldn't surprise me at all if Donald Rumsfeld eventually comes to a similar conclusion once the game is played out and the costs totaled.

Not trying to pick a fight here. Just sharing one veteran's reflections on another troubled time in our nation's history.