Absolutely superb AI

[ravinhood]

My goodness must I really list all those games? I don't feel like listing 100's of computer wargames that can be played multiplayer, PBEM or hotseat. Just too many to list. Just scroll through Matrix titles, HPS titles, Shrapnel titles, and then Empires, Panzer General series, Combat Mission Series, Close Combat Series, Talon Soft Series, QQP series (oldies but a goodie), the list NWS has is almost the best one on the net, though they still do not have any Matrix Titles of late, if I played naval battle games or air combat games or sub combat games the list would be even longer, oh and Avalon Hill had several as well, Midway, Bismark, Planet Miners, then gesh SSI had a slew of them, mainly hotseat though, back in the 80's didn't have internet just bbs, man there's just too many.

You can goto the underdog.org site and put in "war" and you will get a list a mile long of computer wargames.

And really board wargames to computer wargames is apples to oranges, and there's not going to be a move to the mass market appeal to create a board game to computer conversion only solely for convience. And that's what you are looking for convience. That's what most computer wargames bring us, convience with an AI. Which the majority of us "less one" who enjoy and are glad to have when there isn't a human opponent around.

Just gotta go with the flow joe, since there is no screaming market for board game to computer conversion without an AI. Les the Sarge might like it though.

Myself I would prefer board wargame to computer conversion with AI's. That would be great. Squad Leader by Paradox?!! LOL ROFLMAO of all the people to get the rights to it, why did it have to be them. lol

[PresbyterJohn]

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

My goodness must I really list all those games? I don't feel like listing 100's of computer wargames that can be played multiplayer, PBEM or hotseat. Just too many to list. Just scroll through Matrix titles, HPS titles, Shrapnel titles, and then Empires, Panzer General series, Combat Mission Series, Close Combat Series, Talon Soft Series, QQP series (oldies but a goodie), the list NWS has is almost the best one on the net, though they still do not have any Matrix Titles of late, if I played naval battle games or air combat games or sub combat games the list would be even longer, oh and Avalon Hill had several as well, Midway, Bismark, Planet Miners, then gesh SSI had a slew of them, mainly hotseat though, back in the 80's didn't have internet just bbs, man there's just too many.

You can goto the underdog.org site and put in "war" and you will get a list a mile long of computer wargames.

Well lets see about those hundreds shall we. Matrix offers BiN and the now out of date KP. Steel Panthers had some appeal but is now too out of date. Uncommon Valor is okay but WitP is too unwieldy. Battle front has Strategic Command only. HPS does have the Panzer Campaigns series and a couple of the Squad Battles series as valid games. All Shrapnel has is the now dated Combat Command Series. The Talonsoft Campaign Series are dated too but still look okay. TOAW is not acceptable. The rest are too old or not turn and hex based games. That seems to put paid to this delusion of yours of hundreds. Now consider how much it costs to buy those games, with the usually terrible AI included. It doesn't stand up that those games are acceptable as cheaper functional alternatives to board games.

Oh and SSI. Really? Gaming in all it's EGA glory. You need to stop living in the past. They were good at the time I suppose but who is going to play something that looks like that now? Really if it's not available in 1024 by 768 it's not going to be suitable as a board game alternative is it.

[LewFisher]

I would just briefly like to add that I had purchased "Ardennes Offensive " from SSG a number of years ago. Although somewhat impressive, it just didn't "grab" me. However I didn get Korsun Pocket but did not at the time have a chance to really look at it. I just purchased BIN and have never been so impressed with a computer wargame . The graphics are great; the interface is brilliant and the A.I. is challenging. I just read thru the turtorial (very well done) and have briefly played with the game machanics. After a practice game or two I will be ready to try a human opponent. [&o]

[Warpstorm]

ORIGINAL: Prester John
Also it's not sinking in when I tell you, and you can trust me on this, that board games are being sold right now without AI (you will of course find this impossible to believe), regardless of what the majority of gamers want. As for where you got the idea that I'm trying to eliminate AI from computer games, I'm afraid that's all your idea. What I'm after is a series of cheaper wargames which I can buy as a specific substitute for board games that don't need to occupy the whole dining room table for a month and need a lot of charts.

Why not just play board wargames PBEM using CyberBoard? It's free and many, many games have been ported to it.

http://cyberboard.brainiac.com/

[PresbyterJohn]

ORIGINAL: Warpstorm

Why not just play board wargames PBEM using CyberBoard? It's free and many, many games have been ported to it.

http://cyberboard.brainiac.com/

Yes, that's the usual reply. I must admit at least it's better than saying there are "100's of computer wargames that can be played multiplayer, PBEM or hotseat".

The issue is that you still need to do the book-keeping and know the detail of the rules. What you need is the rest of the advantages, where the game does all the accounting and doesn't let you do anything which is against the rules. No dodgy line-of-sight calls, and no incorrect DRM's. And if properly designed it would speed up the boardgame a lot.

[ravinhood]

Ummm, I still play my old SSI games with friends and solo. And I had left out the SSG games, completely forgot about those like Carrier Force and Europe Ablaze and then their whole Civil War series and Napolean series.

By your defiintion though it isn't a wargame unless it looks like a board wargame, well if anyone is living in the "past" that is you, because that definition has far changed since the 60's 70's years. Things change, get used to it. It's an AI computer wargaming time, it's their (and some of our) market now, and the old die hard board wargamer is just drifting off slowly into the sunset. (at least as far as computer games are concerned).

Want all yah want, dream what you'll dream, who knows someone might actually do it, but, for now, sorry, ain't happening.

[wodin]

Talking of AI. I really want to play Lock and Load but no I'd never actually play it even if I bought it. I would love them to bring otu a PC version so I could finally play against an AI. Not as good I know as another human but I at leats get to enjoy a game or two. To go on about games shouldnt have an AI is to be honest damn right selfish. Do you ever consider anyone else?

[ravinhood]

To go on about games shouldnt have an AI is to be honest damn right selfish. Do you ever consider anyone else?

Well I understand his point and want Wodin, I was like that myself when I first got into computer wargaming. And at first back in 81-83 or 84 that's practically what you got from SSI. Knights in the Desert, Battle of the Bulge, Battle for Nomandy, all 3 of those really were pretty close board wargame to computer game conversions. But, not exactly what I was looking for. I was always looking for Squad Leader on the computer, but, with a great AI. Panzers East or something like that and Typhoon of Steel, Kampfgroupe and Battlegroup were the real first close to Squad Leader games I encountered. In fact those are the games that Steel Panthers came from if I'm not mistaken. I'd have to pull out my game manuals to look at the designers, but, I'm pretty sure Grigsbys name is on at least two of them.

But, as the years have passed by, the lil square counters with numbers on them have mostly changed into well first 8bit stickmen and tanks, and then they improved a little better to 16bit, then 32bit etc. and then someone thought up an isometric view of these little square counters we use to push around a card-board or paper map. The stats are still the same, the terrain advantages and movement ability are still the same, the combat results tables are still the same, but, the little square counters have grown up into these 3 demensional massive icons that some even have a little life to them. I guess Rome Total War would be the most outstanding graphical display of that little square card-board counter we used to play with. Now, they've grown up into raging barbarians with paint all over their faces, standing, yelling screaming, rushing, charging swinging swords and shield and all sorts of weapons, man, who would have ever thought back then that just a few years down the road well heh 40 to be exact that we'd see those little card-board counters turn into something like Rome Total War or even Steel Panthers or Combat Mission. Of course the board map has evolved right along with the square card-board counters. Now we get rich fresh 3d graphical maps to play on as well. Some you can even go right down to ground level and view the goings on, once again Rome Total War and Combat Mission. This adds a bit of immersion to the game, but, really doesn't have any affect on the outcome of the battle, it just looks kewl.

Board wargames have been converted to the computer, but, in a different way than the old board wargame style. Oh Matrix still holds onto the old school in several games, but, even they "Tin Soldiers" are moving away from the common square counter board wargame game piece I think. HPS they have added some 2D like units to their games as well. Eagle Strike I believe. Talonsoft did the same, gave you a choice in fact. However you look at them though, they are all still wargames, but, not quite the same face as the board wargames of old. And that's what the gentleman wants. He's just not ready to give up his card-board wargaming platform yet and just wants a conversion that will do all the math and give him the same gameplay as a board wargame with the convience that I spoke about.

And of course one of the great things about them all, even though it isn't the greatest challenge in many cases, the AI is still there when you don't have anyone else to play with. If anything it's a good testing tool for trying out various things, even though it won't react like a human would, you can still see a lot of ways to play, like Combat Mission and trying to find that darn hill that you can see everything from, lol, I still have a problem placing some of my units in that game, I swear I have a LOS and the game when I start tells me I do not. lol

I'm an old board wargamer, but, I was willing to accept change, I sort of was glad of it, I got so tired of stacks of units falling off of each other, someone kicked the table and the pieces got moved everywhere. And then of course when my wargaming buddies moved away, there was nobody to play with and I just never could get into playing a game against myself. I tried, I tried hard, but, it was boring, I always won and I always lost. lol.
I guess I'm too competitive and I need a different brain than my own for the challenge. I cannot challenge myself, because I know all my sneaky tactics. lol So that is why I would never buy a computer wargame without an AI, or any game for that matter. If you're going to do that, might just as well buy a board game, that market needs you. There is just no large market for board wargame to computer without an AI out there. In fact this is the first person I ever ran into that even suggested something like this since like 1983.

And also now that I have tasted the AI and these new 2D and 3D games, it's very hard to go back to the old school and even play a square countered board wargame anymore. Though I do from time to time and have every intention of purchasing AGW when it is released and only $29.99 I might add. So long live the AI and may it continue to improve, even after I'm dead and gone.

[Adam Parker]

By coincidence one of my favorite war titles is the regimental level board game "Breakout Normandy" and it used to occupy my time solitaire. It was the best and last of Avalon Hill's 3 efforts in area-style wargaming. That is to say, no traditional hexes, rather a then, very "modern" shift away to map "areas" through which units moved. Some of us will know it well.

The rulebook and box in this 2-person game went to extraordinary efforts to assure customers how well it would play solitaire due to its further innovations in variable turn impulses and the nature of the battlefield's historical intelligence. That says enough in itself

Thing is, whilst this debate seems to be going on here, SSG's "Battles In Normandy" as a solitaire gaming experience, is beating Breakout hands down.

Look, I too continue to buy board war games. Downtown and Memoir '44 in the past few months. Heck even Axis and Allies DDay! Thing is, these games take space - in the case of Downtown, its paper map needs protection in the form of glass or lamination - and for nearly all of my collection, I need a safe playing location for upwards of a week. Plus an encyclopedic mind to remember rules and operate dice rolling mechanics. All very hard to come by in modern adult times!

But the issue relevant to this debate, is that BiN with its
AI is providing a hell of a good gaming moment for me at present and I'm far from through with it by a long stretch.

Adam.

[Pustov]

I like PBEM....But the AI is the most important part in a game to me....and I hope SSG will make the AI better and improve on this. A battle against the AI when your drinking and loosen is so much fun.

[PresbyterJohn]

ORIGINAL: wodin

Talking of AI. I really want to play Lock and Load but no I'd never actually play it even if I bought it. I would love them to bring otu a PC version so I could finally play against an AI. Not as good I know as another human but I at leats get to enjoy a game or two. To go on about games shouldnt have an AI is to be honest damn right selfish. Do you ever consider anyone else?

I don't know how many times I have to say this. Some people are just plain deaf. They are selling games without AI right now. It's just that they are played on a hex board. People buy them and play them, get this, without AI. You'll be stunned I'm sure, but it's true. Now given all the hassles associated with playing those games, why is it so hard to ask for what is essentially a computerised play assistant. Can you imagine playing ASL (for example) without having to look for counters, or without having to check for LOS with a length of thread. The counters and markers will always be there, placed correctly, and at the right phase. LOS determinations will be simple, and DRM's will be exactly correct. And the whole process will be faster, even if you know the charts off by heart. Take into account that this will all be happening on a computer screen and not a billiard table size playing area and it is even better. Now please explain why that's selfish, or is it just that you don't give a damn for people who might want a better experience that that currently offered by board games. Well?
Of course I imagine this sort of gaming software would be expensive but somebody like you would probably be selfish enough to insist that it have an AI too, and that way nobody could afford it. Great. Just perfect for you and crappy for anybody else who likes the game.

As for Lock 'n Load, why not play the VASSAL version? It comes on a CD with the game, you just have to have internet access and an opponent lined up (Hint: check the LnL forum). Perhaps that is too much of a challenge but then for some people so is getting up in the morning. If you really want to play people there are ways. If you just want to win against a lame AI then go for it.

[ravinhood]

They are selling games without AI right now. It's just that they are played on a hex board. People buy them and play them, get this, without AI.

Well if someone is already making these games without an AI, what is your complaint? Seems you are getting what you want, now you want "more"? You want "all" games to be made without an AI? That doesn't really make sense. And perhaps you are on the wrong forum, maybe, you should be on the forum where those makers of these games without AI's are and tell them you want a more "convient" board game to computer game conversion of these games.

Like I said, I understand what you are wanting, I was that way when I first started playing computer wargames, but, have sense moved on and accepted the new form of wargaming, that comes not only with the game to be played solo, with someone else or against yourself, but, with an AI opponent as well.

Btw other than ASL for computer and Aide de Camp by HPS, what other games have a computer driven game map, counters and such, without an AI? I'd be interested to know.

[ioticus]

Prestor John, I don't understand your point. I can't think of any computer wargames that can't be played hotseat or by email. Do you want an entire line of computer wargames with no AI? I really doubt there is a market for that, but there might be. The computer gaming market is different from the boardgame market. I think most people, like myself, play a computer game because they can't or don't want to play against another person.

[ggallagher]

Actually, I think Decision Games, makers of board-based wargames, has already published a line of "AI-less" computer wargames, to very limited success. I belive their titles include War in Europe, a real monster if you recall.....

[PresbyterJohn]

ORIGINAL: ioticus

Prestor John, I don't understand your point. I can't think of any computer wargames that can't be played hotseat or by email. Do you want an entire line of computer wargames with no AI? I really doubt there is a market for that, but there might be. The computer gaming market is different from the boardgame market. I think most people, like myself, play a computer game because they can't or don't want to play against another person.

Unfortunately there are no computer games that match the board games for detail (read as complexity if you will) and that also have a reasonable AI. Case in point is WitP I think. Another very popular game is TOAW - buit the AI is pretty terrible. Now BiN is doing well but the AI does have a couple of weak points when playing allies. Covering those weak points might be added in to the AI but will the effort be worthwhile (cost effective)? Better to look at really good games like ASL and World in Flames. AI is almost impossible to build for a half competant game. So ditch the AI, save the money, and just make the board game on the medium of the computer, with the rules built into the system. This way the games have more access to the market due to convenience.

[PresbyterJohn]

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

They are selling games without AI right now. It's just that they are played on a hex board. People buy them and play them, get this, without AI.

Well if someone is already making these games without an AI, what is your complaint? Seems you are getting what you want, now you want "more"? You want "all" games to be made without an AI? That doesn't really make sense. And perhaps you are on the wrong forum, maybe, you should be on the forum where those makers of these games without AI's are and tell them you want a more "convient" board game to computer game conversion of these games.

Like I said, I understand what you are wanting, I was that way when I first started playing computer wargames, but, have sense moved on and accepted the new form of wargaming, that comes not only with the game to be played solo, with someone else or against yourself, but, with an AI opponent as well.

Btw other than ASL for computer and Aide de Camp by HPS, what other games have a computer driven game map, counters and such, without an AI? I'd be interested to know.

Actually no, I only want some good games. Games like ASL and World in Flames as I've already mentioned. I couldn't care less if companies pump out rubbish games with terrible AI for the masses to soak up. You guys can have a ball with them I'm sure. But why waste time and effort giving a terrible AI to what could have been a much better game without the AI. My complaint is just for those games which have the potential to be truly great, like some boardgames, but resources are squandered on a useless AI instead of making the 2 player game the best it could be. So dump the AI when you know it's going to be hopeless, and don't listen to the people who are saying "I will buy any game as long as it has an AI, no matter how dumb it is".

[Adam Parker]

ORIGINAL: ggallagher

Actually, I think Decision Games, makers of board-based wargames, has already published a line of "AI-less" computer wargames, to very limited success. I belive their titles include War in Europe, a real monster if you recall.....

I also remember when ADG's World in Flames was first touted for the PC, they published a survey to see whether people would buy the game without an AI. I believe the response was close to 50/50.

My response at the time, was that the graphics were so poor and far removed from the beauty of the board game, that either way, I wouldn't bother.

Yes, John I would love ASL in all its board glory of the PC that could play solitaire without an AI and all the inconveniencing of needing to remember the rules, check LOS and apply DRM's.

However, given the very adequate AI in Close Combat 5 Normandy, why would I now want that? The one thing the computer is giving us, that board gamers have always craved for and I've said it before in this thread, is an umpire. That umpire is also known as Fog of War and FOW is best applied via an AI.

An AI-less game could at best, offer hidden opponent views via self-hotseat. Either way, you'll still know where the enemy (your alter ego) is planning his schwerepunkt and its impossible to apply the tactics of bluff which only true FOW can allow.

That's why an AI-less ASL will not work as we wish. Too many scenarios rely on bluff and guile, unless a player is merely interested in playing in a "gaming laboratory" where these essential aspects of warfare are simply not possible in a 2 player intended solitaire setting. Try breaking out to the West in 1945 from Berlin as the Meuchenburg Division but knowing exactly which of the 4 bridges you're going to use. Are you as your Soviet alter ego going to ignore this inside info when placing your intendedly "hidden" units? A key feature of ASL is the "?" Concealed feature. How many solitarie players have used it? That's why "Solitaire ASL" was launched by Avalon Hill.

IOW PC war gaming is finally reaching the point, where AI's can be sufficiently refined to allow things board gaming simply cannot. Board gaming retains only a few trumps over the PC at present and these too will slowly begin to be whittled away:

1. House rules.
2. Unlimited DYO.
3. Unlimited pre-game setup.

John Tiller as we speak is working with the US military in the field of AI which will have a commercial application in the future. SSG is already supplying a more than fine example of the AI art with Battles In Normandy. Panther are refining their own spin with their Highway to the Reich system and Koios in their own way are providing yet another competitive variant with their ancients title. Not to forget Battlefront with the Combat Mission franchise and Atomic's Close Combat series.

The march is on. Sid Meier did a fine job with Alpha Centauri and Gettysburg a few years ago now. It's the "Nintendo School" that is continuing the bad taste of the past decade of lameless efforts, with titles such as last month's shameful Rome Total Bore. They will soon become the exception.

Anyway, this is just my response to the debate in general - ie: that AI's offer no advantage over the past 50 years of board breeding. They do. And its now for the PC to begin addressing the remaining advantages board gaming holds, to really prove that the genre has come of age.

My .02 [;)]
Adam.

[wodin]

ORIGINAL: Prester John

ORIGINAL: wodin

Talking of AI. I really want to play Lock and Load but no I'd never actually play it even if I bought it. I would love them to bring otu a PC version so I could finally play against an AI. Not as good I know as another human but I at leats get to enjoy a game or two. To go on about games shouldnt have an AI is to be honest damn right selfish. Do you ever consider anyone else?

I don't know how many times I have to say this. Some people are just plain deaf. They are selling games without AI right now. It's just that they are played on a hex board. People buy them and play them, get this, without AI. You'll be stunned I'm sure, but it's true. Now given all the hassles associated with playing those games, why is it so hard to ask for what is essentially a computerised play assistant. Can you imagine playing ASL (for example) without having to look for counters, or without having to check for LOS with a length of thread. The counters and markers will always be there, placed correctly, and at the right phase. LOS determinations will be simple, and DRM's will be exactly correct. And the whole process will be faster, even if you know the charts off by heart. Take into account that this will all be happening on a computer screen and not a billiard table size playing area and it is even better. Now please explain why that's selfish, or is it just that you don't give a damn for people who might want a better experience that that currently offered by board games. Well?
Of course I imagine this sort of gaming software would be expensive but somebody like you would probably be selfish enough to insist that it have an AI too, and that way nobody could afford it. Great. Just perfect for you and crappy for anybody else who likes the game.

As for Lock 'n Load, why not play the VASSAL version? It comes on a CD with the game, you just have to have internet access and an opponent lined up (Hint: check the LnL forum). Perhaps that is too much of a challenge but then for some people so is getting up in the morning. If you really want to play people there are ways. If you just want to win against a lame AI then go for it.

Thanks PrestorJohn,

Your post is rather rude. I do know of one game without an AI Laser Squad Nemesis. I want a game with all the things you want but with an AI aswell. Whats wrong with that? Some people believe it or not do not have an internet connection as they cant afford one. Also whats selfish anout your idea is that people who dont have an internet connection or want to play against another person for the reasons I mentioned in my last post need an AI. With your idea of no AI then these people will miss out on the game. This isnt fair.

Funny enough I know boardgames dont have an AI. Shock Horror. However that is the beauty of PC's. You can play games without actually needing someone else there and you dont need all the other negatives you mentioned aswell. READ MY POST.

As for beating a lame AI. I have Suqad Battles. I dont play against the AI. I PBEM. However Im pleased it has one. So OTHER people (who havent the confidence to play someone else or who dont have an internet connection) can at least enjoy the game.

Also I dont feel that time or effort is wasted in making an AI at all. Sorry. If a game is being made by a good company/developer and the system works and it looks OK then whats the problem. PC's are powerfull enough these days to have it all. You dont have to make a chose betwen one or the other.

I do know that Lock and Load can be played using Vasl. However I dont want that. I want a fully working PC title with an AI and all the rules. With the hope of expansions later. Not a boardgame with some kind of added etc that really wouldnt be of the standerd as a full priced game. I'd also want to play it when I wanted not when someone else wants to.

Also as for the getting out of bed etc tec. Im disabled and have severe motability problems. So you certainly put your foot in it there didnt you.

[wodin]

ORIGINAL: Prester John

Actually no, I only want some good games. Games like ASL and World in Flames as I've already mentioned.

Funny enough so would I. With an AI aswell. It can be done you know;)

[PresbyterJohn]

ORIGINAL: Adam Parker

ORIGINAL: ggallagher

Actually, I think Decision Games, makers of board-based wargames, has already published a line of "AI-less" computer wargames, to very limited success. I belive their titles include War in Europe, a real monster if you recall.....

I also remember when ADG's World in Flames was first touted for the PC, they published a survey to see whether people would buy the game without an AI. I believe the response was close to 50/50.

My response at the time, was that the graphics were so poor and far removed from the beauty of the board game, that either way, I wouldn't bother.

Yes, John I would love ASL in all its board glory of the PC that could play solitaire without an AI and all the inconveniencing of needing to remember the rules, check LOS and apply DRM's.

However, given the very adequate AI in Close Combat 5 Normandy, why would I now want that? The one thing the computer is giving us, that board gamers have always craved for and I've said it before in this thread, is an umpire. That umpire is also known as Fog of War and FOW is best applied via an AI.

An AI-less game could at best, offer hidden opponent views via self-hotseat. Either way, you'll still know where the enemy (your alter ego) is planning his schwerepunkt and its impossible to apply the tactics of bluff which only true FOW can allow.

That's why an AI-less ASL will not work as we wish. Too many scenarios rely on bluff and guile, unless a player is merely interested in playing in a "gaming laboratory" where these essential aspects of warfare are simply not possible in a 2 player intended solitaire setting. Try breaking out to the West in 1945 from Berlin as the Meuchenburg Division but knowing exactly which of the 4 bridges you're going to use. Are you as your Soviet alter ego going to ignore this inside info when placing your intendedly "hidden" units? A key feature of ASL is the "?" Concealed feature. How many solitarie players have used it? That's why "Solitaire ASL" was launched by Avalon Hill.

What can I say, other than that you don't seem to understand the concept of playing a two player board game on the computer. You're saying that it won't work solitare. Who cares? The idea is not to play solitare but against other players. To say that AI-less games won't work because you can't play them solitare is pretty twisted logic and completely irrelavent. And the same thing goes for your objection about concealment markers. They will work exactly the same way as in the board game. Don't go saying that concealment markers don't work in ASL either. There is no need to introduce some new fog of war ideas, and then say that they won't work. Don't introduce them in the first place, just stick to the game as it is. But I do agree that a two player only board game conversion to computer must look good. The artwork in boardgames contributes to their value and gameplay. A lot of older computer games look damn ugly when a comparison is made but when EGA was the best available what can you do. That is no longer the case and visual appeal is important so it's not just anti-cheat security and ease of play which is important.

Lastly, why do you need an AI as an umpire?

IOW PC war gaming is finally reaching the point, where AI's can be sufficiently refined to allow things board gaming simply cannot. Board gaming retains only a few trumps over the PC at present and these too will slowly begin to be whittled away:

1. House rules.
2. Unlimited DYO.
3. Unlimited pre-game setup.

John Tiller as we speak is working with the US military in the field of AI which will have a commercial application in the future. SSG is already supplying a more than fine example of the AI art with Battles In Normandy. Panther are refining their own spin with their Highway to the Reich system and Koios in their own way are providing yet another competitive variant with their ancients title. Not to forget Battlefront with the Combat Mission franchise and Atomic's Close Combat series.

The march is on. Sid Meier did a fine job with Alpha Centauri and Gettysburg a few years ago now. It's the "Nintendo School" that is continuing the bad taste of the past decade of lameless efforts, with titles such as last month's shameful Rome Total Bore. They will soon become the exception.

Anyway, this is just my response to the debate in general - ie: that AI's offer no advantage over the past 50 years of board breeding. They do. And its now for the PC to begin addressing the remaining advantages board gaming holds, to really prove that the genre has come of age.

My .02 [;)]
Adam.

You can go for it with better AI's, it's a great research topic for the computer scientists, and is sure to keep a couple of people amused. But what's the point of paying for an AI that doesn't offer a challenge?