acclerated ship

[Xargun]

Before you get all excited about stopping ships that are months if not years away remember the basic rule for japanese ship building...

Page 184 of manual:

13.7: If a ship has delay equal (or greater) to it's durability * 10 then the ship does NOT consume construction points but recieves a FREE day of construction. Thus those ships that are a year or more out are probably not consuming ship construction points anyways, so if you halt them it won't matter much...

Xargun

[tsimmonds]

ORIGINAL: Xargun

Before you get all excited about stopping ships that are months if not years away remember the basic rule for japanese ship building...

Page 184 of manual:

13.7: If a ship has delay equal (or greater) to it's durability * 10 then the ship does NOT consume construction points but recieves a FREE day of construction. Thus those ships that are a year or more out are probably not consuming ship construction points anyways, so if you halt them it won't matter much...

Xargun

Right. This is why it is essential to use a spreadsheet of some kind. Otherwise you have absolutely no visibility into what you are spending shipbuilding points on today, and what you will be spending them on in the future. If you make decisions without this knowledge, you are shooting craps.

[tsimmonds]

13.7: If a ship has delay equal (or greater) to it's durability * 10 then the ship does NOT consume construction points but recieves a FREE day of construction. Thus those ships that are a year or more out are probably not consuming ship construction points anyways, so if you halt them it won't matter much...

Here's what you are paying for on Day 1:

185 Yamato
185 Musashi
180 Shinano
115 Taiho
50 Junyo
50 Hiyo
50 Ryuho
45 Shoho
11 Makigumo
33 I-11
33 I-27
33 I-28
33 I-29
33 I-30
33 I-31
33 I-32
33 I-33
33 I-34
33 I-35
33 I-36
26 I-176

1260 Total

Of course, by 12/9/41, this list is obsolete as DD Kazegumo now starts burning points. [;)]

[steveh11Matrix]

ORIGINAL: irrelevant

I'm absolutely astonished that players of the Japanese haven't collectively roared at Matrix/2by3 to sort this out!

I don't know about the others, but I haven't squawked because I'm a sicko beancounter by profession and I kind of enjoy the puzzle of it. But it never occurred to me that there was anything particularly wrong with it. It just needs some tweaking, same as aircraft production. You examine the possibilities, decide on your priorities, and make some choices. Your assumption is that the arrival schedule is exactly historical, but looking at the it, I see ships on it that I know were not completed during the war (CVL Ibuki, CVs Kasagi, Aso, Ikoma), but you can build them or even rush them to completion if you wish. I expect the Japanese themselves had to make some tough choices regarding their shipbuilding plans.

Does the AI know that it has to do this? [;)] As for those ships, IF the US hadn't decisively eliminated the Jap shipbuilding, might they have been completed - with no further 'tweaks' - before the end of 1946?

I'm not a beancounter - no offense - and have little or no interest in this part of the game, at least at present. (Give me a year or so with the game, and if I'm still playing, things might be different as I explore more "What If" options.) My expectation was that I need do nothing to production as the Japanese player and the production would be historical, assuming I had the resources to 'fuel' it. Oh, well.

Thanks for the very good explanations, though.


Steve.

[tsimmonds]

My expectation was that I need do nothing to production as the Japanese player and the production would be historical, assuming I had the resources to 'fuel' it. Oh, well.

I know this tidbit will make your day. By July 11, 1944, there is a deficit of 181,869 naval shipbuilding points to overcome somehow or another. OTOH, 170,640 of that deficit came from Shinano.....

[Tophat]

That leaves a 11,229 point deficit to overcome and i believe stopping construction on 1 RO-boat will makeup this deficit by itself. Halting construction on a shortrange sub would seem to be a cost effective measure. Then again since you have a merchant shipyard surplus of some 400 points converting some to naval shipyard points sounds attractive.
Out of curiosity irrelevant what tweaks have you tried in scenario 15 shipbuilding as the Japanese?

[tsimmonds]

That leaves a 11,229 point deficit to overcome and i believe stopping construction on 1 RO-boat will makeup this deficit by itself.

Actually that would take two, at 6250 (25x250) each.

Halting construction on a shortrange sub would seem to be a cost effective measure. Then again since you have a merchant shipyard surplus of some 400 points converting some to naval shipyard points sounds attractive.

Merchie production really takes off in 1943, far outstripping the 1000 points available. Don't forget the shortage of tankers Japan faced IRL....

Out of curiosity irrelevant what tweaks have you tried in scenario 15 shipbuilding as the Japanese?

That information is classified. The enemy is listening....[;)]

[Tophat]

So basically,you are more or less stating the japanese player is forced to expand his shipbuilding ability or he simply cannot expect all the ships in his force pool to become avaliable for use.

[tsimmonds]

Not at all. I'm saying to drop Shinano like the hot rock that she is, and then decide what your priorities are. Are you going to need dozens of submarines coming online in 1943 and 1944? If not then you have some points to play with. The big fleet subs cost 10,890 to 12,960 apiece. The ROs are 6250. OTOH, you could, for example, get one of the Unryus to arrive a year early for a net additional cost 24,820 points. Get a whole division of Akitsukis six months early for 16,900 net additional cost. The only limit is your imagination, and what you are willing to give up.

Rule of thumb: the number of days early a ship can arrive is equal to 15 times its durability. Akitsuki: durability 13, maximum acceleration 13x15=195 days. Multiply this by twice the durability to find the cost. 195x13x2=5070.

(take a deep breath here.....)

If you really want to nail this thing down to the last point, you should also take into consideration that if you accelerate this ship, you will be paying less for the normal construction of the ship than you otherwise would have. A ship starts paying for normal construction when the arrival time in days is equal to its durability times ten. But, if you are accelerating construction, you are advancing two days towards arrival every calandar day. So, you will be paying this cost only half as long as you would have otherwise. So, give yourself a rebate for half of the normal construction cost that you will not spend, because you cut the period of normal construction in half. 130/2x13=845. Net cost to get an Akatsuki 195 days early 5070-845=4225

It is still not quite that simple though. You also have to keep in mind that the 5070 for acceleration you are paying up front, while the 845 "rebate" is a reduction of what you would have paid after the ship has arrived. The thing is, the points are spent day by day, and so day by day is how you have to analyze it.

[Xargun]

ORIGINAL: irrelevant

13.7: If a ship has delay equal (or greater) to it's durability * 10 then the ship does NOT consume construction points but recieves a FREE day of construction. Thus those ships that are a year or more out are probably not consuming ship construction points anyways, so if you halt them it won't matter much...

Here's what you are paying for on Day 1:

185 Yamato
185 Musashi
180 Shinano
115 Taiho
50 Junyo
50 Hiyo
50 Ryuho
45 Shoho
11 Makigumo
33 I-11
33 I-27
33 I-28
33 I-29
33 I-30
33 I-31
33 I-32
33 I-33
33 I-34
33 I-35
33 I-36
26 I-176

1260 Total

Of course, by 12/9/41, this list is obsolete as DD Kazegumo now starts burning points. [;)]

You sure about those numbers ? I'm not sure what order the computer pays for ships, but I believe they start with those closest to being finished and moves down the list. So I'm not sure (without looking) if the Shinano or half those subs would have construction points spent on them.

Xargun

[tsimmonds]

As you pointed out yourself, you start paying for a ship when it is 10Xdurability in days away from arrival. Shinano, durability 180, must pay for her last 1800 days of construction; in game terms she's been paying since 12/14/1939. Take I-11 for example. Durability 33, she pays for the last 330 days. Since she arrives on May 16, 1942, she has to pay from the start. It is simple enough to build a spreadsheet that lists each ships arrival time and durability, then set up formulas to count back to the day when she must start to pay for construction.

[tsimmonds]

It's also easy enough to test in game whether you are currently paying for a ship or not. Go into the arrival schedule. Pick a ship. Click on the word "NORMAL". If you can change it to "HALTED" (or whatever it is), you are currently paying for it.

[tsimmonds]

The IJN warship construction planning tool I mentioned in this thread is available for download at Spooky's. Be warned, it's a bigass file (zipped for download though). He also said he'd put up the one for merchies as well; it's even bigassed-er.

[Admiral DadMan]

ORIGINAL: irrelevant

The IJN warship construction planning tool I mentioned in this thread is available for download at Spooky's. Be warned, it's a bigass file (zipped for download though). He also said he'd put up the one for merchies as well; it's even bigassed-er.

I love bigass [:D]

[Bradley7735]

I Love Bigassed-er

[steveh11Matrix]

So, in short, the simple quick-and-dirty solution as the Japanese in the Dec7th1941 scenario is to ditch Shinano and a couple of RO class subs, and all will be as well as could be expected for the Naval construction, and to consider expanding the Merchant construction capability - if resources permit - sometime in 1943?

Steve (- always looking for the simplest solutions necessary)

[anarchyintheuk]

ORIGINAL: steveh11Matrix

So, in short, the simple quick-and-dirty solution as the Japanese in the Dec7th1941 scenario is to ditch Shinano and a couple of RO class subs, and all will be as well as could be expected for the Naval construction, and to consider expanding the Merchant construction capability - if resources permit - sometime in 1943?

Steve (- always looking for the simplest solutions necessary)

Yup.

[kypros]

When playing a game with the "Variable Reinforcements" option enabled to something other than "Fixed", can the player still make these changes?

[tsimmonds]

That will do exactly what you are asking. However, it isn't a very efficient solution; you are banking large numbers of shipbuilding points early in the war against future production that you may or may not really want to do. If you have any interest at all in tweaking production you should consider downloading my spreadsheets from spooky's. Only when you look at the default shipbuilding plan for (as an example) November 18, 1943 will you be able consider whether you really want to be banking shipbuilding points today just to make it possible to carry out that day's construction:

115 CV Taiho
68 CV Unryu
68 CV Amagi
68 CV Katsuragi
68 CV Kasagi (arrives 5/14/45)
68 CV Aso (arrives 6/14/45)
68 CV Ikoma (arrives 6/14/45)
27 CL Sakawa
11 DD Asashimo
11 DD Kishinami
11 DD Okinami
11 DD Hayashimo
5 PC Amakusa
5 PC Manju
5 PC Miyake
33 I-12
33 I-45
33 I-44
33 I-54
33 I-56
33 I-58
33 I-46
33 I-47
33 I-48
33 I-52
33 I-53
33 I-55
26 RO-41
26 RO-43
26 RO-45
26 RO-47
26 RO-46
26 RO-48
26 RO-49
26 RO-50
26 RO-114
26 RO-115
26 RO-116
26 RO-117

1313 Total

I think really it would be far more useful to accelerate other ships earlier than to be building these things now....

[tsimmonds]

ORIGINAL: kypros

When playing a game with the "Variable Reinforcements" option enabled to something other than "Fixed", can the player still make these changes?

yes