Should I abandon Singapore?

[DrewMatrix]

For the December 1941 Scenarios:

I am thinking of substantially abandoning Singapore. I would leave a token force (Engineers, maybe one combat unit) but try to evacuate, mostly by sea, all the other units in Singapore and on the Malay Peninsula to Burma/India.

My reasoning is that Singapore will fall sooner, but I will
a) have more troops to hold the India/Burma border area once the Japanese get there
b) I will not lose as many victory points for troop losses
c) If I am going to do a massive evacuation of some area, the commonwealth units in Singapore can be evacuated without spending PPS while the USAFFE and Dutch units require PPs to move out of the area.
d) There is a reasonable rate of replacements for Brit/CW troops compared to Dutch/Filipino units.

But I will have to run a gountlet to get them out and I will lose Singapore sooner, freeing up those Japanese units to be used elsewhere.

Anyone have any experience with this strategy?

[Nikademus]

Mogami high fives the air when he plays against Allied players who do that. Says it makes his job so much easier. For what it's worth i agree. Speeds up the Japanese operational plan when you dont have to mop up the Malayan peninsula

[Chaplain]

If you're PBEM, you're going to lose a considerable number of ships to Jap LBA - i.e., if your opponent is halfway competent. I would suggest that, overall, it's better to bleed him a little by resisting. It's very hard for him to fight a war of attrition in the long run.

[Bradley7735]

It's relatively easy vs the computer, but I bet you take some significant ship losses (with troops on those ships) vs a human.

You should definitely do some fast transport task forces to take pieces of most of the units, but it's tough to advise on evacuating the bulk of the units. I agree with your theory, but what if you load up two large inf units and they get sunk by KB? Now you lose singapore faster, lose the points for the troops and you don't have them to help in Burma.

[RUPD3658]

Singapore must be held as long as possible to tie up Jap units.

Here is the best of both worlds:

1. Hold Singapore as long as possible. I went Alamo and pulled all my LCUs in as soon as the Japs took Khoto Bharu. I moved the Dutch PT boats there as well as the AVG. It is 2-1-42 and the air power has sunk 20-30 transports (Go Vilbebeasts!) and the PTs are wreaking havoc on the near by landings. I am also refuling/supplying subs from here and they have accounted for another 20-30 transports.

2. At the same time use subs to evacuate samples of each unit back to a well supplied base in India. Once the parent unit is gloriously defeated in battle it will become the parent unit and start to regrow. I guess saving the regimental colors as well as key officers and their selected female support staff allow this to happen. The same thing can be done in the PI and the DEI but you will have to spend PPs to change the HQ of the units. Base forces are cheap to change and are most useful in the long run.

3. Right before the base falls evacuate all the air units as far north as possible.

[DrewMatrix]

Sounds like most people think my "brilliant plan" is sheer idiocy.

Glad I asked.[:)]

[Xargun]

ORIGINAL: Beezle

Sounds like most people think my "brilliant plan" is sheer idiocy.

Glad I asked.[:)]

There is nothing wrong with using subs or other ships (fast transport - or using ships 1 at a time to reduce chance of spotting) to evacuate pieces of units so you can rebuild later, but pulling major units out too early will greatly lessen japanese losses and enable them to attack Burma faster.

I recommend pulling base forces out - just a little bit (usually with subs) so you can rebuild them over time. Most allied problems are from lack of base forces - especially to support air power.

Xargun

[tanker4145]

I'd say at most you could pull out one whole BDE. This would still allow Signapore to hold for quite a while, yet give you some extra forces somewhere else. The thing I really hate is all the VP's the Allies give up in the first year for LCUs, especially surrenders. Between Signapore and PI thats a huge amount. Add in the dutch and usually a bunch of chinese and it hurts.

[Xargun]

ORIGINAL: tanker4145

I'd say at most you could pull out one whole BDE. This would still allow Signapore to hold for quite a while, yet give you some extra forces somewhere else. The thing I really hate is all the VP's the Allies give up in the first year for LCUs, especially surrenders. Between Signapore and PI thats a huge amount. Add in the dutch and usually a bunch of chinese and it hurts.

Troops in Malaya don't need PPs to move.. and very little is worth saving in PI - I usually just go for the base forces..

Xargun

[RUPD3658]

ORIGINAL: Xargun

Troops in Malaya don't need PPs to move.. and very little is worth saving in PI - I usually just go for the base forces..

Xargun

The PAF unit is a must save as it has 100 avaiation support. There is also a EAB unit in the PI which is useful to have later. I would try to save at least one Phillipino combat unit so that I have somewhere to put the PI rifle squads I get each month. If you wait until it is almost dead the PP cost is almost nothing.

I evacuate whole Dutch base forces that are not in bases with combat units back to Darwin. Since they would offer very little resitance to a landing anyway I don't think this is too gamey. The Dutch air force is also worth spending the PPs to save. The recon bi-planes later upgrade to F-5A long range recon planes.

[Bradley7735]

All the dutch patrol groups are worth saving. They're cheap too. only 3 planes to transfer. You can never have too many patrol planes. Save the two Dutch transport groups. You can never have too many of those either. Especially in Burma.

[KPAX]

Singapore is the key to Burna / India. By holding Singapore as long as possible, it gives your troops time to arrive and fortify. You should be able to hold Singapore until early spring of 42. That should be enough time to really make a nice stand in Burma.

Also, Singapore is important for holding on to Palambang and Batvia. If the Allies holds Singapore and IJN goes after Palambang, you can make him hurt tons. You can not stop it, but they can pay.

Same thing with PI. Hold that keeps the troops from pounding on DEI, Solomons, and / or DEI. The whole idea for the Allies is a make them pay with blood and time until you can supply Oz with all they need.

[Kwik E Mart]

also, don't forget that engineer units left behind "demolish" resources and oil when eventually overrun...this can make a significant reduction in the war botty that japan recovers when taking singapore

(hmmm, singapore does have resources and oil, doesn't it?) [8|]

of course, "botty" should be "booty" [;)]

[DrewMatrix]

make them pay with blood and time

Yeah. The question was which of those two: Blood or more Time?

I gather most of you think Time is more important.

[von Murrin]

The general idea espoused here of pulling unit fragments and digging in with the rest is sound, particularly if you're playing with Allied sub doctrine on. They won't be good for much else over the first few months.

Also remember that the Japanese player/AI must recycle combat divisions. Thus, the longer you delay and bloody them the harder it is to use them elsewhere.

[byron13]

And now for the non-gamey response. The British would not have abandoned the Malyan peninsula on December 8th for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is they probably thought they could win or at least hold out indefinitely. Against the retarded AI, I say hold as long as you can but start withdrawing when it would be obvious to Parliament that the battle will be lost.

Against a human opponent, anything goes within agreed house rules. Against the AI, though, I'm not sure I buy into the "save a kernel for re-seeding." Later in the war, this just gives the Allies (or Japanese) an advantage they did not historically have. I don't believe the AI is smart enough to do this nor does it respawn land units that have been completely destroyed (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong). Given the insurmountable advantage the human already has - at least as the Allies - why "pile-on" by intentionally saving kernels? I have no problem if an effort to save an entire unit fails and the unintended result is the saving of just a kernel, but intentionally driving a ship into the harbor and saying, "we're only evacuating officers and senior NCO's to re-establish the regiment once the rest of you poor slobs have died for Queen and country" . . . . that doesn't sit well with me. But, you are God in your game; do what you will.

[von Murrin]

Well put, to a point.[;)]

I don't see the utility in evacuation as a concept. However, I do it with nearby subs and sometimes transports when the base looks to be in imminent danger of falling and surrender will eliminate the defenders. I tend to pull parts of the big base forces as I'm anticipating the need to be able to drive aviation support levels over 250 at multiple rear locations just to keep aircraft from sitting damaged and idle when they could be training or somesuch.

I suppose that might be gamey, but I really HATE playing the shell game with DEI air assets as it is. Can you imagine what it would be like to do that for everything in 44-45?[:'(]

[Tankerace]

My usual tactic is to pull 1 or 2 Bde from Singapore, to help strengthen Rangoon. Everything else I can I send to hold Singapore. The longer you hold it, the Longer before Tojo can get on with his grandiose offensive.

[von Murrin]

If you did that to me, I'd just leave you there to rot.[:D]

Rangoon is fine the way it starts. Everything needs to go to the East Indian coast and the Irrawaddy line, IMO.

[Nikademus]

I'm starting to think that the Japanese player should assault Burma first. Most stategies I read about usually go along the lines of rushing stuff to Burma and building a massive defense line.