will there ever be a game like WITP

[madmickey]

With the news that there will no Med operation, I bring up the question will there ever be a game like WITP again. That reviewer saying his head will explode is another sign about how difficult the economic viability of the game.

[Embark]

I think as long there is a market for this type of game that people will try to satisfy that niche. I don't think 2by3 or Matrix got rich off of WITP even charging 70 bucks a pop. They said they anticipated selling between 5,000 and 15,000 copies of it. Those numbers arent very large compared to mainstream titles.

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: Embark

I think as long there is a market for this type of game that people will try to satisfy that niche. I don't think 2by3 or Matrix got rich off of WITP even charging 70 bucks a pop. They said they anticipated selling between 5,000 and 15,000 copies of it. Those numbers arent very large compared to mainstream titles.

No, but is good money as it is not their only project. Not much difference between financially comfortable and stinking rich unless you are a complete freak.[:)]

[Bodhi]

Yep, I think there will. Probably not by 2by3 and probably not anytime soon, but it'll come one day. In the meantime enjoy WitP.

[Embark]

Well say for instance that 10,000 copies of WITP were sold at 70 dollars a piece. Say that Matrix and 2by3 split the profits down the middle at 50%. If it took 4 guys 2 years to make this game then each one of them would be making 43,750 dollars a year for their efforts. This definitely isn't getting rich but again it isn't a terrible living.

I don't really know any of the specifics about how Matrix and 2by3 have things worked out or how many people and how long it took to make the game. I just listed the above as an example.

[TulliusDetritus]

I am pretty sure that WitP is just the begining. I remember reading somewhere on this forum that the creator of PacWar said something like "ah, if I had a more advanced computer". Think about Total War series. Now the computer technology allows you to have 10,000 soldiers on the battlefield (in that game). On the past that was impossible. In other words, in 2 years we will have games even more complex (or realistic). And then in 5 years, and in 10 years, etc. This is a snowball and one day we could have -if someone wanted to create AND customers wanted to play such "monster"- a WitP x100 complex and detailed. Just ask, technology will probably provide. This is going to be true for every kind of game: strategy, arcade, adventures, etc., etc. Just name it. Time will say.

[madmickey]

Most computer programmers makes more than $43,000. The fact they did not want to develop the MED operation, which is just, add on is an indication of the economics of the game. This is a hard fact. I went over to Highway to The Reich (I have not [played since WITP) and I do not see any news on follow-up game, go over to Matrix game coming soon nothing listed.

[pasternakski]

ORIGINAL: madmickey

will there ever be a game like WITP again.

I hope not. It wound up being a design dead end. There are many wrong things about it that will never be fixed.

The worst part is the degree to which non-design-team posters on this forum arrogated to themselves the idea that they knew more about the game engine than those who created it did, and the startling willingness of those in charge to pander to this silliness.

I was especially frustrated when the editor and a supposed capability to adapt this system to ahistorical "needs" and circumstances became the central focus, rather than creation of a state-of-the-art simulation game.

It's a study in what can go wrong. Let it rest in peace. Stop making adjustments that do nothing but screw the Allies. Leave the poor mangled thing in peace. It's still kind of playable. The more you do, the less that is true (thank you, Johnny Cochrane).

[Bodhi]

ORIGINAL: madmickey

Most computer programmers makes more than $43,000. The fact they did not want to develop the MED operation, which is just, add on is an indication of the economics of the game. This is a hard fact. I went over to Highway to The Reich (I have not [played since WITP) and I do not see any news on follow-up game, go over to Matrix game coming soon nothing listed.

If WitMed were just a simple map/OOB add-on, the economics would tend towards it being made as, for a relatively small investment, a new game could be produced. However, the economics would against it if the current design is not entirely suited to a "Med war" game and would require major overhaul/rewrite.

Regarding Highway To The Reich, there's a separate froum for the next game in the series "Conquest of the Aegean", which is behind schedule, but still coming out.

[madmickey]

ORIGINAL: Bodhi

ORIGINAL: madmickey

Most computer programmers makes more than $43,000. The fact they did not want to develop the MED operation, which is just, add on is an indication of the economics of the game. This is a hard fact. I went over to Highway to The Reich (I have not [played since WITP) and I do not see any news on follow-up game, go over to Matrix game coming soon nothing listed.

If WitMed were just a simple map/OOB add-on, the economics would tend towards it being made as, for a relatively small investment, a new game could be produced. However, the economics would against it if the current design is not entirely suited to a "Med war" game and would require major overhaul/rewrite.

Regarding Highway To The Reich, there's a separate froum for the next game in the series "Conquest of the Aegean", which is behind schedule, but still coming out.

Even with part of engine useful non-OOB development of Med game should be less than for WITTP.
Conquest of the Aegean start as a add-on on a game that is much simpler than WITP.
Will it have a Christmas release?

[Banquet]

ORIGINAL: pasternakski

ORIGINAL: madmickey

will there ever be a game like WITP again.

I hope not. It wound up being a design dead end. There are many wrong things about it that will never be fixed.

The worst part is the degree to which non-design-team posters on this forum arrogated to themselves the idea that they knew more about the game engine than those who created it did, and the startling willingness of those in charge to pander to this silliness.

I was especially frustrated when the editor and a supposed capability to adapt this system to ahistorical "needs" and circumstances became the central focus, rather than creation of a state-of-the-art simulation game.

It's a study in what can go wrong. Let it rest in peace. Stop making adjustments that do nothing but screw the Allies. Leave the poor mangled thing in peace. It's still kind of playable. The more you do, the less that is true (thank you, Johnny Cochrane).

I've seen a decline in PC games over the last 5 years. Even more so I've seen a decline in the sort of games I like to play on a PC. I still rate the PC as the only games machine worth having because only the PC is capable of producing them. Nontheless, unless my memory is deceiving me, there are hardly any good wargames coming out now, compared to the early 90's.

While I wouldn't say that there will never be another wargame covering the Pacific Theatre, of the same scope as WitP, I honestly wouldn't count on it being in our lifetime. As madmickey says, the fact that the Med game is off the agenda suggests sales haven't been as good as Matrix hoped.

pasternakski may think 'It's a study in what can go wrong' I think it's a study of what can be achieved.

Who else, in these days where graphics are god and gameplay (especially thought provoking gameplay) is totally overlooked, is going to take on a project like this?

The future is bleak for wargames.. I sincerly believe that.

Fewer and fewer people are buying them compared to graphic heavy games. In a way it's not surprising - 10 years ago, all graphics were crap, and only good enough for maps and icons.. now they can do almost anything.

So you think there will be a better version of WitP coming along? Don't hold your breath!

[Vaevictis_386]

PC Wargaming is a niche, but a very lively one. Check out HPS simulations, for example. Great stuff happening over there.

Even with the demise of the big board game war game companies, exciting things kept happening: OCS, GMT, etc. As long as there are a few dedicated and talented people like Matrix and 2 by 3, great things can happen.

[madmickey]

Even when you go to wargamer.com they do not have the initial pop-up add when you log on. That means advertising is down. How long will it last, remember when it had monthly donation drives.

[madmickey]

ORIGINAL: Vaevictis_386

PC Wargaming is a niche, but a very lively one. Check out HPS simulations, for example. Great stuff happening over there.

Even with the demise of the big board game war game companies, exciting things kept happening: OCS, GMT, etc. As long as there are a few dedicated and talented people like Matrix and 2 by 3, great things can happen.

HPS games tend use one engine for a lot of series none of the game were as complex as WITP or even HTTR.
Something like Korsun pocket series may have a longer future but it far less detailed and complex than WITP

[Banquet]

ORIGINAL: Vaevictis_386

PC Wargaming is a niche, but a very lively one. Check out HPS simulations, for example. Great stuff happening over there.

Even with the demise of the big board game war game companies, exciting things kept happening: OCS, GMT, etc. As long as there are a few dedicated and talented people like Matrix and 2 by 3, great things can happen.

It's niche now.. It used to be big business. What will it be in 5-10 years? A lot smaller niche probably (micro niche?!)

I'm not saying no one will be making good wargames in 10 years. But I wouldn't count on anyone making another wargame covering the Pacific Theatre from 41-46 down to the last ship, plane, pilot and gun anytime soon..

The best emotion anyone can have right now is gratitude that we got to play this game at all.

[pasternakski]

ORIGINAL: Banquet
pasternakski may think 'It's a study in what can go wrong' I think it's a study of what can be achieved.

Can't agree, my friend. What can be achieved was not at all approached by this "achievement."

[madmickey]

ORIGINAL: pasternakski

ORIGINAL: Banquet
pasternakski may think 'It's a study in what can go wrong' I think it's a study of what can be achieved.

Can't agree, my friend. What can be achieved was not at all approached by this "achievement."

I think it was a valiant effort but the developer looked at the cost-benefit analysis of further improvement and quit.

[denisonh]

I have to say that WitP is the finest military simulation of the War in the Pacific to date. Period.

But......

I have to echo Pasternakski's sentiments on the piece about "pandering" to people whining about the combat system.

The fact is that we have the invulnerable IJN "Deathy Star" wandering around with absolute impunity.

Somebody please point to the historical precedence for this.

This applies to both Allies and IJN in the early war.

The CV was a new weapon system. Managing CAP, organization of air wings, doctrine, formations, etc.. were all in development. The fact that the first CV on CV naval engagement did not happen to May of 1942 (Coral Sea) indicates that the CV was not the reliable "tried and tested" weapon system it gets credit for in the game.

Combat is choatic. Particularly so with a new weapon system where you are still learning how best to employ it.

But the way the KB can park off the coast of Java, India, or Austrlaia in early 42 is so unreal it defies reality. There is such certainty with early war CAP effectiveness, NONE of the reticence displayed by the IJN or USN naval staffs in planning early war CV ops is considered. Why I ask?

It is kind of like saying that since nobody died last year on US Highways from "playing touch football", that is is ok to play touch football in the middle of the freeway. We reason away historically significant concerns with such comments as "I have twenty Zeros on CAP, no single unescorted bomber SHOULD be able to penetrate my CAP". The fact that it could happen in reality scared real planners, but is is so unlikely in WitP that it can be dismissed as not an issue.

The uncertainty of the CV as the "premier" platform existed in reality and fact until later 42, when enough lessons had been learned to codify it as the such.

Air combat is too bloody and early war CAP too effective because of this pandering. It should be far more "chancy" than it is now to better represent the uncertainty that in fact existed at the outset of the war.

[TheHellPatrol]

You all have valid points in regard to Witp and i am extremely saddened about the news of the Med version[:(]. If this is "it", give or take a patch, then i will rationalize it by believing that i have the best wargame of it's type and theater that ever was and ever will be created. It is the panacea for my Pacific theatre grand strategy craving and like finding the perfect spouse...you are best to embrace him/her for what you have and not what you could have[;)].

[Joel Billings]

ORIGINAL: Banquet

While I wouldn't say that there will never be another wargame covering the Pacific Theatre, of the same scope as WitP, I honestly wouldn't count on it being in our lifetime. As madmickey says, the fact that the Med game is off the agenda suggests sales haven't been as good as Matrix hoped.

So you think there will be a better version of WitP coming along? Don't hold your breath!

WitP sales have been fine (higher in October than in September, always a good sign). It's more a case that the effort required to put out a Med War game that we would be happy with turns out to be much greater than what we had originally thought, and we are all too burned out by working on this monolith to want to put that much work into the Med War game. This is especially true given the known sales limitations of a Med game. WitP was a product that at every turn took a ton of effort, and we didn't want to put out a Med War game that we wouldn't be proud of. It was really only after we put out WitP and could step back and figure out what we needed to do to put out Med War that we came to this understanding of the effort required.

As for another WitP? I don't think there will be anything quite like it again covering the War in the Pacific. That's not to say that sometime in the future someone might not do another kind of War in the Pacific game that is even better. I just don't think it will be as grand-tactical in nature, and won't likely have both the detail and the player control over so much (if not all) of the operations.