Plotting odds before dec '41?

[hakan]

Is it easier to plot as Soviet in WIR 3.3 than in earlier versions? As early as 31:st of august ’41 I plotted 3 units 2 steps (i.e. totally 6 steps) and succeeded!! Was that pure luck, or is it easier to plot now than in version 1.0? Back in the old days, I remember it extremely difficult do plot before November ’41…

(I isolated 3 units and knocked out one German HK, containing 616 aircraft…)

//Håkan

[JagdFlanker]

i would think you got lucky, as odds usually are low! they get better as it approaches dec 7, 1941, which is when the soviets gain full movement control. sorry to say the game if you are playing vs the ai is going to be a cakewalk - once blizzard hits the confuser ai can't keep it's readiness up for the germans and you'll shatter his entire army within seconds! the only way you can make it some sort of challenge is to not attack at all during blizzard turns.

[hakan]

Nah, the AI is not a challenge, is it? Playing as a communist you often storm Berlin as early as '42. (At least in the Amiga version 1.0. )

I am playing against a human veteran, and so am I (i.e. human). We stared playing WIR anno dominus 1991. However, we have only played version 3.3 5 times, and during this play we have noted that it is fairly easy plotting as Soviet.

Does anyone have a "Soviet-plotting-probability-table"?

My friend Erik von Gunnarstedt stormed Leningrad this round. Leningrad was fairly easy to defend in the older versions. Damn. This was not according to my plan. Shostakovich will never compose his famous opera; instead Wagner has installed himself in the Winter Palace... I hate Wagner!

"The battle of Leningrad is over; now the battle of Moscow has begun"

//Josef Stalin

[JagdFlanker]

no, the confuser AI is simply no fun! even if you let the german AI play against nobody it stilll can't make moscow!

entrenchment's effectiveness has been greatly reduced in versions 3 and up, so when playing it is odd if leningrad DOESN'T fall in 1941!

[hakan]

Hmmm... During the war, Leningrad was encircled for 900 days, and still it did not fall... Strange that they have changed the rules for entrancement in cities in version 3+... My enemy Erik actually took Leningrad before he had taken 41,6 or 44,6!!

Flanker, in general: How do you defend Leningrad? Do you leave Leningrad, or do you place a shock army there? The problem the latter, is that you will loose a lot of units if you also loose 44,6... I find it very tricky to defend both the North and the Central front at the same time... In general, I find it hard to play as Russian... As Soviet player, I have only stopped my friend Erik von Gunnerstedt once as Russian (a glorious game back in 1993). However, I must say that Erik is by far the best player I have ever played against... (Hmmm I hope he doesn't read this - I would never admit that he is better than me.)

Flanker, is there any mod. you would recommend for an old timer as me and Erik? Many players speak about the “Possum”, whatever that means in English…

//Håkan (Suéde)

[JagdFlanker]

well, unfortunatly i think it's impossible to successfully defend leningrad, only put off it's capture by mabe a few months! now that i think of it, i think the problem is that it if germany throws a pile of airstrikes at any unit, those airstrikes remove entrenchment and make it much easier to dig any entrenched troops out. can any of you vets back me up on this - do airstrikes remove entrenchment? because it sure looks like it does to me!! if that is the case, then my previous post in 'mods and clods' about random entrenchment should be modified - airstrikes should not affect entrenchment in any way, which would make random entrenchment ok!

the soviets are very difficult to play - a good german player can take moscow every time! now, that's not necisarily a-historical, as had hitler focused on moscow there's no doubt he could have taken it. but in the original WiR instructions (hints section) it is very clear that the fall of moscow is supposed to be a big blow to the soviets, and according to the article getting moscow in 1941 allows the germans to 'clean up' in 1942. so i guess it could be said that the game is tilted towards the germans somewhat.

as for mods, possum is the only one really used if a mod is used, but i myself currently prefer 'ol fasioned 3.3. the amount of units in possum is a little excessive for my tastes, i'm not a big fan of the map, and it reverses the balance greatly towards the soviets. to me the german surprise airbase strikes on the first turn are a case in point - it almost seems to hurt germany more than it hurts the sovs!! as you may have read on previous posts, i myself am working on a mod which actually simplifies the tank units a little, expands on the aircraft units (to more accuratly show the transfer of air superiority over the war, thanks to denniss!), and using the excellent possum order of battle for more accurate air, inf and tank divisions. i researched new tank stats, but i will do it over again when i finally get this sucker up. i am working on a new map that will not be too far from 3.3, but will give the soviets a chance to defend moscow. because it's mostly for PBEM players, all unit prices will be based only on each units power - as most players prefer to simplify their production to as few types as possible you can now choose to make a lot of cheap, less powerful units or fewer more powerful units depending on your preference. but it will take me another week (or mabe 2) to get the initial version out. ooo-eee -> that was a nice plug (advertisement) for my mod!!

[hakan]

Yes, I have seen that you have put down great effort doing research on WWII panzers. Gosh, is seems hard to aproximate the attack and armor value. Respect brother!

For example, I have read both German and Soviet literature about the battle of Kursk, and they all say different things. For example, the Soviets thought that the SU-152 was a real "animal" killer, because it knocked out so many Tigers and Panthers. However, according to Soviet sources, the SU-152 knocked out more Tigers then the Germans actually put in to the battle! Hence, the name “animal killer” seems to be pure soviet propaganda. The maximum direct fire range for a SU-152 with AP was only 700 meters (due to the low velocity and crappy scopes.) But if you check out ballistic data, it often seems as the SU-152 could fire at more than 700 meters!

Do you have all data need to approximate the attack and armor value? (You do know that 30 degree slope adds 20% armor?)

This is a quite good Russian site presenting Soviet tanks; however it contains some errors, mentioned above: http://www.battlefield.ru/map.html

I am looking forward to test you mod!!

//Håkan

[JagdFlanker]

the 2 main sources i used are:

http://www.onwar.com/tanks/

http://www.panzerworld.net/
goto 'tables and statistics', then 'armour and arty', then finally 'relative armour thickness'
i just use the provided chart as opposed to the program since it's easier to use.

average front armour is converted to nearest cm. AFVs with 60-79mm average side armour get +1cm def. 80mm+ side armour get +2cm.

other than the websites, i use combat mission:barbarossa to berlin to get the missing info, especially cannon penetration (i found it slightly understated rather than overstated the internet info, which i preferred).

[hakan]

I hope Matrix will give you a good contract as developer and game-tester when they finally understand that they have to develop WIR II !!

//Håkan

[EvilWeevil]

any one need a developer ? I'd love to code the new WIR game in my spare time

[hakan]

Hey, guys, I really need you help now!

My friend Erik refuses to keep on playing, after I succeeded to plot two steps with a Russian unit and knocked out an HQ with 616 air units (31:st of august ’41).

He is convinced that the plotting odds have change since we played 1991-1994. And because he didn’t know this, he refuses to keep on playing… I am soooooooooo angry!

So the big question is: Is it easier to plot for Soviet in WIR 3.3 than in the original game from 1991?

If the answer is “no” I might convince him to keep on playing.

//Håkan

[JagdFlanker]

actually, you only lose the unready aircraft - the rest (or most of the rest) show up at OKW a couple turns later. i'v had that done to me a couple times in 1 game! there's no reason that your opponent should be angry - it's all about learning things the hard way! next time i'm sure he'll be more careful...

but i find it's very difficult to even get a fraction of your soviet units to do what you want them to do before Dec '41, so i'd say you just got lucky!

i'd already decided a year ago that if i ever win the lottery a new WiR is something i'd be willing to dump my own money on, even if only for my own personal use! i'm not going to bother hoping that's ever going to happen, but you can't score if you don't shoot!

[Agent Smith]

A few words from Russian gay.

1. SU-152 - "animal killer". The English word for Russian "зверобой" is "hunter" (very good one, sniper class hunter). But in WWII context i would translate it as "Beast buster".

2. Russian soldiers called ANY German long-gunned tank (Tiger (Pz-V), Panther (Pz-VI), later modifications of Pz-III and Pz-IV) "Tiger" and ANY German heavy StuG - "Elefant". This caused misunderstanding.

[JagdFlanker]

as far as i know allied soldiers and tankers called all german tanks "Tigers" regardless of what kind of tank it actually was as well, so i'm not surprised the Soviets were no different!