The U.S.S.R. - Smoke and Fire - The Variables

[Mziln]

The U.S.S.R. wants Bessarabia and Persia.
Persia must be by outright conquest while Bessarabia may be outright conquest or political pressure.

(1) Bessarabia and Political Pressure
(1a) Rumania allows the claim. Hungary and Bulgaria make demands

If Germany allows Hungary and Bulgaria demands on Rumania:
• Transylvania becomes part of Hungary. Germany can align Hungary in any later Axis declaration of war step.
• South Dobruja becomes part of Bulgaria. Germany can align Bulgaria during any later Axis declaration of war step.
• Germany can align Rumania during any Axis declaration of war step if Germany has declared war on the U.S.S.R. (not if the U.S.S.R. has declared war on Germany), is at war with Yugoslavia, or controls Belgrade.

If Germany denies Hungary and Bulgaria demands on Rumania:
• Hungary stops supplying its resource to Germany until Hungary aligns with Germany. Germany can align Hungary during any Axis declaration of war step after Germany has declared war on the U.S.S.R. (not if the USSR declares war on Germany). No more than 1 Hungarian unit can ever be outside of Hungary;
• Bulgaria can never align with Germany but the U.S.S.R. can align Bulgaria during any later U.S.S.R. declaration of war step.
• Rumania becomes aligned with Germany as a full Axis ally during the next Axis declaration of war step. It need no longer keep half of its units inside Rumania - they can all leave.

(1b) Rumania (Germany) denies the claim Germany enforces peace between Rumania and the U.S.S.R.
No hex of Rumania, outside of Bessarabia, is Soviet controlled; and Germany and the USSR are not at war.
• Rumania again becomes a neutral minor country;
• The USSR keeps control of Bessarabia provided there is a Soviet land unit anywhere in Bessarabia; and
• Germany can align Rumania, Hungary and Bulgaria aligned during any later Axis declaration of war step.

(1c) While Rumania and the USSR are at war:
• Germany can declare Hungary aligned with Germany during any Axis declaration of war step
• Bulgaria can’t align with either Germany or the USSR.


(2) Germany wants Yugoslavia for the additional resources.
By outright conquest or by having Italy, Hungary, Rumania, Bulgaria, Greece, and Albania are all Axis controlled.


(3) Japan wants Persia for its oil and is willing to go to war in Siberia if the Soviets intervene.

[coregames]

ORIGINAL: Mziln

(2) Germany wants Yugoslavia for the additional resources.
By outright conquest or by having Italy, Hungary, Rumania, Bulgaria, Greece, and Albania are all Axis controlled.

I haven't yet figured out how to effectively align Yugoslavia as the Axis, and haven't seen it happen in a game. Since Bulgaria is not going to align until war with the USSR comes, and Greece is so hard to get without Yugoslavia and/or Bulgaria, the only way I can see to align Yugoslavia is to DoW the Russians. This may mean foregoing many of the surprise impulse benefits so that forces can be deployed to take Greece via Bulgaria. I don't think the time lost against Russia is worth aligning Yugoslavia right away.

On the other hand, it might work to shift some forces (Italians most likely) to conquer Greece over winter of 41/42, after substantial gains during campaign season against Russia. All-in-all, I prefer conquering Yugoslavia from the getgo, immediately after Poland.

[Droop21]

Another usual way to go for aligning Yugoslavia is to:
1. Rumania allows USSR claim
2. Rumania denies Bulgaria and Hungary
3. German declare war on Bulgaria (immediately to prevent a USSR alignment) and Hungary
4. German aligns Rumania
5. Conquer Hunagry (German troops) and Bulgaria
6. Go for Greece from Albania, Bulgaria and seaborne invasion

The main question re timing is the IMHO the CW capability to reinforce Greece as it will dictate the German force requirement (you must make sure that they can't get 4 corps in Greece or they will align Yugoslavia [X(])

[coregames]

ORIGINAL: Droop

The main question re timing is the IMHO the CW capability to reinforce Greece as it will dictate the German force requirement (you must make sure that they can't get 4 corps in Greece or they will align Yugoslavia

That is the main consideration for me in DoWing Yugoslavia. The advantages are you keep the Bulgarian and Hungarian force pools (oh joy!) and preempt CW aligning Yugoslavia. The disadvantage is that you don't get the Yugoslav force pool.

Thanks for clearing it up for me how an alignment is workable Droop.

[Mziln]

Just like I said 8/24/2004 11:47:34 PM

On: Just out of curiosity - what Major Power do YOU prefer to play and why?

(2) Russia - What Russia decides to do effects everyone. You have plenty of options. Like invading Persia (when the weather clears) for the 4 oil resources. [8D] <= Persian sunglasses.

[coregames]

ORIGINAL: Mziln

(2) Russia - What Russia decides to do effects everyone. You have plenty of options. Like invading Persia (when the weather clears) for the 4 oil resources. [8D] <= Persian sunglasses.

Russia can't get them all (rail doesn't extend down there).

[Mziln]

ORIGINAL: coregames

Russia can't get them all (rail doesn't extend down there).

YUP, you need convoys to get all of them.

[Droop21]

Worse, iirc you need western allied convoys (I don't have the map under my eyes, but I think that even from Vlad, you can't reach the persian ports). If I understand rule 13.6.1 correctly, CW can't help you until you until you're active (i.e. at war with Japan, Germany or Italy). [:-]

[Mziln]

ORIGINAL: Droop

Another usual way to go for aligning Yugoslavia is to:
1. Rumania allows USSR claim
2. Rumania denies Bulgaria and Hungary
3. German declare war on Bulgaria (immediately to prevent a USSR alignment) and Hungary
4. German aligns Rumania
5. Conquer Hunagry (German troops) and Bulgaria
6. Go for Greece from Albania, Bulgaria and seaborne invasion

The main question re timing is the IMHO the CW capability to reinforce Greece as it will dictate the German force requirement (you must make sure that they can't get 4 corps in Greece or they will align Yugoslavia [X(])

If the Soviets don't claim Bessarabia then Yugoslavia would have to be conqured. If you don't want to wait untill the U.S.S.R. is invaded.

[coregames]

ORIGINAL: Mziln


If the Soviets don't claim Bessarabia then Yugoslavia would have to be conqured. If you don't want to wait untill the U.S.S.R. is invaded.

Fortunately, Yugoslavia is a pushover in 1939... at most two impulses to roll over them with troops fresh from conquering Poland. And Bulgaria is the only axis minor that requires occupation of Belgrade; the other two only require DoW on Yugo. It benefits the Germans not to wait for a Soviet claim of Bessarabia, as all three minors align before war with the Russians, and the Rumanian border isn't adjusted.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: coregames

ORIGINAL: Mziln

(2) Russia - What Russia decides to do effects everyone. You have plenty of options. Like invading Persia (when the weather clears) for the 4 oil resources. [8D] <= Persian sunglasses.

Russia can't get them all (rail doesn't extend down there).

Russia can't get them all, but Russia can reorganize units on the 2 oil resource that do not have rail.
That's a lot of units reorganized for free.
Or, another option, is that Russia can lend those Oil to the CW.
Cheers

[Droop21]

IMHO it would be very poor Allied play to not ask for Bessarabia from the start [X(]. It enables to reduce resources to Ger by 1 and to gain a new hero city at the border to take pressure off Odessa during the first Barbarossa impulse (Chisnau iirc).

[coregames]

IMHO it would be very poor Allied play to not ask for Bessarabia from the start

[/quote]
A lot depends on U.S. entry for that. Some moderately bad luck could result in the US never being able to DoW the Germans. If that did happen, Sea Lion would be much more likely to succeed! But if US entry is stable (perhaps a chit from Poland), I agree that the claim should be made before the Germans have a chance to finish Poland and Yugoslavia. If the Axis is given time to align all three balkan minors, those extra garrison units can bring war as early as March/April '41 with good chit draws for the Germans.

[coregames]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

Or, another option, is that Russia can lend those Oil to the CW.
Cheers

5. Lending Stage
...You can only give resources (or build points) if you are an active major power and you can only give them to another active major power

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: coregames

ORIGINAL: Froonp

Or, another option, is that Russia can lend those Oil to the CW.
Cheers

5. Lending Stage
...You can only give resources (or build points) if you are an active major power and you can only give them to another active major power

Sure, aren't they both active most of the game ?

[Mziln]

ORIGINAL: coregames

5. Lending Stage
...You can only give resources (or build points) if you are an active major power and you can only give them to another active major power

9.1 Neutral major powers
A major power is a ‘neutral major power’ if it is not at war with any other major power. If it is at war with at least 1 major power, it’s called an ‘active major power’.

War with Japan in Siberia would sufice to initate the trade agreement. It wuold continue until nulified by the Commonwealth or the Soviets even if peace were declaired by Japan or the Soviets.

5. Lending Stage > paragraph 3

Some major powers need US entry options (see 13.3.2) to be chosen before resources can be given to them. The USSR is further restricted in that (apart from Germany ~ see 5.1) she may only give or receive up to 1 resource (or build point) per turn unless US entry option 19 (and option 30 for build points) has been chosen.

5.1 Trade agreements > Germany-USSR
USSR and Germany start the 1939 scenario with a trade agreement in place to exchange German build points for Soviet resources.

In each turn, Germany must lend lease 2 build points to the USSR while the USSR must supply Germany with 7 resources (2 of them must be oil). These numbers can change if circumstances vary. For each of: Finland; Latvia; Estonia; Lithuania; Bulgaria; Hungary; Rumania; and Turkey.

that an Axis major power either declares war on or aligns with (see 9.7, 9.8 and 19), reduce the number of resources the USSR must supply by 1 (minimum 0). Reduce the ordinary resources before you reduce any oil resources.

Option 19 - Resources to USSR (Ge/It) (8)*
Option 30 - Lend Lease to USSR (Ge/It) (11)*