CV TF - Ideal Mix of Ships

[KPAX]

What is the ideal mix of ships for a CV TF ? Mission is to engage enemy, not as escort, etc. Looking for early war, say early to mid 1942.

1. How many CVs in the TF ?

2. If you have CVLs/ CVEs should they get combined with CVs ?

3. How many DDs ? CLs ? CAs ?

4. Not really interested in a specific class of DD (or whatever class), since you want the ships with the highest AA, but how many of each type is ideal.

5. And if the mix is different for the IJN vs Allies, please specify.

Thanks !!

[PeteG662]

Some considerations......when a TF hits 15 ships there seems to be some degradation IIRC from the manual. Combining CVs and CVLs could be useful depending on speed of ships and other factors such as mission. You should have some CL/CAs in the TF to use their inherent search aircraft for spotting and freeing up the CV squadrons for the main attack.

Some people create a mini KB for the DEI using CVLs and CVEs.

[UncleBuck]

If I am putting a Killer group together, I do not put CVE's in with my CV's. They are just to slow. I usually use the CVE's as an airshield for my transports. I have taken to pulling the FM-2's and the Torpedoe planes off of one CVE in the group and replacing it with an F4U- or F6F group for pure fleet protection. the Other CVE's I have in the group, usually one more at minimum, I leave as is. I use the FM2's or F4FX as extra CAP and the 8 torpedo planes for ASW. Other Makeup in CVE groups will be nothing larger than a CL and usually only one of those. In My CV groups I try not to put CA's in the group. I load it up with DD's and a few De's. I try not to place more than two CV's in the same TF, so it woudl be 2 CV's, 8 DD's and 5 DE's. I may toss a CLAA in when they show up in place of a DD. This configuration gives me a good AA battery, screens me against smaller ships and protects well from Subs. I do task a SCTF along with my CV groups if there is any chance of a Surface force Encounter that my DD's would not handle. THis is where I make a CA TG. This woudl be 2 or 3 CA's 4 CL's and 6 or 7 DD/DE. I do not place BB's in these groups since I use them for Bombardment missions. They woudl get tere own TF and woudl also tag along.

UB

[scout1]

KPAX,

If its our game, the ideal mix is 1 CV and 10 TK per TF[:D]

[KPAX]

ORIGINAL: scout1

KPAX,

If its our game, the ideal mix is 1 CV and 10 TK per TF[:D]

So you looking for that Roman Candle with 99 SYS/Flood damage and more then the 144 filres !! [:-]

I will try that if you will ?

Tell you what, will met your 1 CV and 10 TK per TF with my 1 CV and 10 TK per TF near PH. It is a lovely spot, great beaches and the women ..... wow .....

[scout1]

Tell you what, will met your 1 CV and 10 TK per TF with my 1 CV and 10 TK per TF near PH. It is a lovely spot, great beaches and the women ..... wow .....

Just as long as you leave those damn pigbot at home, I'll think about it[8|]

[Hornblower]

Depending on the year, and the number of carriers available, I normally set up 2 cv’s and 1 cvl, or 1cv and 2cvl’s. Ideal escort is 1-2 Modern BB’s 2 CA’s some CLAA’s and destroyers. Never more then 15 ships. Normally I do 13-14 ships, to keep a slot or 2 open should I need to transfer a ship in.

CVE’s are never in the same TF as the fleet carriers- to slow. I group them in 4’s with DD’s and the older CA’s. If there are some pre-41 BB’s available I will toss them in.

[DrewMatrix]

For the Allies early (Up to mid 1943) I use:

2 CVs or 1 CV+2 CVLs. I do not use CVEs since they will slow down the TF. I mass CVEs together.

Add 1 or two Fast BBs.
Add CAs and CLAAs to a total of about 9 or so ships.
Add DDs to total 15 ships.

If I have enough CVs to have several such 15 ship groups I set one of these TFs (to which I assign the best leader) as lead TF. I set the others to Follow TF/Patrol Do Not Withdraw.

(If I only have enough ships for a single such TF I hide from the enemy).

By keeping to 15 ships I as assuming I coordingate better.

Oh, and I keep an eye on the total AA and total ASW. I try to keep those roughly (not fanatically) equal between the two/three such 15 ship TFs which are operating together.

[KPAX]

ORIGINAL: scout1

Tell you what, will met your 1 CV and 10 TK per TF with my 1 CV and 10 TK per TF near PH. It is a lovely spot, great beaches and the women ..... wow .....

Just as long as you leave those damn pigbot at home, I'll think about it[8|]

But my PigBoats are the only thing that is hurting you right now.

No pain, no gain.

[KPAX]

ORIGINAL: Beezle

Oh, and I keep an eye on the total AA and total ASW. I try to keep those roughly (not fanatically) equal between the two/three such 15 ship TFs which are operating together.

Beezle, thanks !!

Not sure that I completely understand this, though.........[&:]

[Oznoyng]

I don't have a great answer for you, since I am still playing with it. However, here are some things to think about. All of my analysis comes from the perspective of Japan, so don't automatically apply these thoughts to the Allies.

One task force or multiple?

When a strike is launched by carriers it can only hit one target (task force), but CAP and strikes from all the ships in a hex generally combine. Therefore, it is beneficial for carriers to be split up into multiple TF's.

However, escorts from one TF do not protect other task forces from submarines. Therefore, you have to balance the need for strong ASW assets with the need to diversify your risk to your carriers.

Their is also a rule associated with TF coordination for carriers. The maximum number of planes that can be in a strike are determined by a formula. For Japan iirc, the number is 200 + rnd(100) which means 200 planes plus a random number between 1 and 100. For the Allies, the number is different. I think it is 100 + rnd(100) to start, but gets bigger as the war years progress. So, you want to look that rule up and make sure you don't end up with aircraft not utilized because they exceed that limit.

Finally, seperate TF's all have their own commander - which means that you are going to have lesser men in command the more you split into TF's. You have about 4 high quality Air Combat TF commanders at the start as Japan (nagumo, Uamaguchi, Abe, and another I can;t recall the name of atm). The effect of different commanders this is two-fold. The ships and aircraft in the TF of the lesser commander will not perform as well as if they were under the better commander. Also, the TF's will react to enemy differently, so your TF could end up in different hexes leaving your TF's with sharply reduced CAP.

How I use my ships as Japan:
CV - air combat TF's
CVL - air combet TF with CV's
CVE - the speed on these guys relegates them to escort duties. I use them to escort transport and invasion TF's in areas where Allied planes could attack.
CS - Chiyoda and Chitose go into my ACTF's after I load them up with range 7 Alfs on Naval Search. Mizuho and Nisshin go into oil convoys with aircraft on ASW.
BB - the fast two go into CV TF's, the rest are SAG/bombardment groups.
CA - these go into ACTF's, invasion TF's and SAG/Bombardment TF's. CA's seem to be the best ship for sending in with the AP's because they can counterbattery without getting sunk like a DD or CL. They also have high AA and high speed, so they go into ACTF's. .
CL - Kitakami and Oi go into ACTF's, the rest go into FT TF's and invasion TF's. I will also use them in transport TF's if they have a float plane.
DD - Really depends upon the class: Mutsuki - ACTF, Tomodzuru - FT, Yugumo - ACTF, Asashio - ACTF, Kagero - ACTF and SAG's, Shimakaze - SAG, Ootori - FT, Shiratsuyu - SAG, Akatsuki - SAG, Hatsuharu - transport escort, Fubuki - transport escort, Minekaze - FT, Kamikaze - FT (ACTF after refit), Wakatake - FT, Momi - FT.
APD - TK escorts. High AA and 10 DC racks on each of em.
PG - long range transport TF escorts leavened with MSW's and a few DD's
PC - short range transport TF escorts and ASW hunter-killer groups. Leavened by a few DD's and some MSW's.
MSW (W.1 through W.20) - Tanker escorts
MSW (all others) - escorts for all types of transport TF's.

What to put in ACTF's?
For each ship in a TF over 15, you get diminishing returns from AA. So, having more than 15 ships in a TF means the extra ships will be less protected. You should not take that to mean never have more than 15 in a TF, just understand that you will get less effect from each ship you add over 15. I put CV, CVL, CS, BB, some CA, DD, and CL(Kitakami and Oi) into Air Combat TF's. For CL's, Kitakami and Oi have radar in early 42.

1. If you have one CV in a taskforce, it will most likely be the target. If you have BB's, CS's, CVL's in the TF with a CV, the attack is likely to split up a bit and try to hit the other ships. The good news is that means less likely hits on your CV. The bad news is that the other ships might get hit. Since I would rather lose anything else to save a carrier, I generally leaven my TF's with other high priority targets.

2. A priority for AC TF's is to have high AA ships in the mix. Generally, the bigger the ship, the better the AA, so fast BB's get put into my CV TF's. I may put a couple CA's in there too because they are good AA platforms, but generally I reserve those guys for invasion TF's. They can safely take fire from most CD units while simultaneously taking the heat off AP's, etc.

3. Another priority is ASW forces. ASW TF's get really effective when they are up around 8 ships and get downright deadly at 15 in my experience so far. I would try to have as many DD's for ASW as I could.

4. Check the speed of the ships you want to put in your TF's. If they can't keep pace with your carriers, they should not be in the TF.

5. You want a minimum of one radar equipped ship in each ACTF. Until mid 42, the only ships that have it are Kitakami and Oi, so I generally place all my CV's into a max of two task forces until mid '42.

6. Pay attention to the endurance of your DD's when choosing escorts. The Tomodzuru class DD looks like a great CV escort because of it's 73 AA rating. However, their endurance of 3000 makes them a drag on the rest of the TF.

[2ndACR]

For the Japanese, I use 3 divisions of 2 CV's each.

Akagi and Kaga are 1st Carrier Div
Shokaku and Zuikaku are 2nd Carrier Div
Soryu and Hiryu are the 3rd Carrier Div

All CVL and CVE are combined to form a baby KB. On the empty CVE I place a 27 plane Kate unit. Wherever baby KB is operating from I have a selection of air units to choose from. If they are operating from Kwajalain, I will have an extra Kate unit, Val, Zero unit.
These are so that I can quickly swap out air units to get the mix I want. I mainly use the Zero or Kate units. The Vals are my "just in case" package.

Once the 2 slow CV's arrive, I use them to back up baby KB or I will break up baby KB entirely and reform them into 2 sections around the CV's. You would be surprised at how well baby KB does in raiding missions and even tangling with a Allied CV TF. They may be slow, but they pack one heck of a whallop with about 60 Kates and 40 Zeros.

You can almost imagine the look on an Allied players face when he sees 20+ Kates break thru his CAP. I will also use baby KB in conjunction with 1 or more of my carrier divisions to give them that extra OOMPH in Kates. A strike with 40 Zero's, 50 Val's and 100+ Kates will give any Allied player nightmares in the early days of the war.

baby KB should avoid head up fights with Allied CV's though. They can hold their own, but they will take a pounding from 1000lb bombs. But do not fear sending them into harms way if you have a decent idea of what is there.

Escorts is the main issue for the Japanese. Not enough to go around. Carrier Division 1 gets the 2 fast BB's and 3 CA's, Kitokomo and 6-8 good AA DD's. 2-3 carrier div will get 4 CA's, 1 CL and 6-8 AA DD's. Baby KB gets what is left over. The short legged CA's and 4-8 DD's.

Very rarely will I use more than 2 fleet CV's in a single TF. I prefer to keep my CV TF's in seperate fleets. 4 CV's in a single TF is asking for a early Midway.

[DrewMatrix]

Not sure that I completely understand this, though.........

Once the TF is assembled there is a total AA and Total ASW number for the TF (towards the left of the screen, above the place where the individual ships are listed).

If I look at that and see TF-A has 8000 AA and 40 ASW but TF-B has 4000 AA and 125 ASW I swap some ships between the two (maybe move a couple of CLAAs from TF A to B and replace them with high ASW DDs from TF B) so things are closer to roughly equal AA and roughly equal ASW between the two. (I am not saying get the AA number and the ASW number equal. They have very different meanings)

[coralsaw]

Great post Oznoyng, one for the Strategy Guide. [:)]

/coralsaw

[KPAX]

ORIGINAL: coralsaw

Great post Oznoyng, one for the Strategy Guide. [:)]

/coralsaw

Yes, perfect !!

This, Beez and 2nd, you guys did GREAT with this.

[BlackVoid]

If you are totally outnumbered, split each CV in a separate TF. Chances are, not all of them are attacked and they can still have a large CAP.

Otherwise, I think it depends on how many escorts you can afford. 2 CV is the ideal way I think. Strong enough multiple strikes, good CAP and less chance to getting obliterated.

Use the best AA ships in the fleet, if you can put in 1 ship with a radar. And a few DDs that have very good ASW and high experience.

Composition: a few (2-4) BB/CA/CLAA, 6-10 DDs + 2 CV. If you don't plan to use/need any surface TFs elsewhere, put in as many CA class ships with good AA as many you have.

[DrewMatrix]

BlackVoid's comment (split into many TFs, each with only 1 CV) is, indeed good advice if you are outnumbered but need to fight even so.

My comments were for cases when you have parity or a superiority in CVs (when I don't I hide and let LBA do the heavy lifting).

[Tanaka]

ORIGINAL: UncleBuck

If I am putting a Killer group together, I do not put CVE's in with my CV's. They are just to slow. I usually use the CVE's as an airshield for my transports. I have taken to pulling the FM-2's and the Torpedoe planes off of one CVE in the group and replacing it with an F4U- or F6F group for pure fleet protection. the Other CVE's I have in the group, usually one more at minimum, I leave as is. I use the FM2's or F4FX as extra CAP and the 8 torpedo planes for ASW. Other Makeup in CVE groups will be nothing larger than a CL and usually only one of those. In My CV groups I try not to put CA's in the group. I load it up with DD's and a few De's. I try not to place more than two CV's in the same TF, so it woudl be 2 CV's, 8 DD's and 5 DE's. I may toss a CLAA in when they show up in place of a DD. This configuration gives me a good AA battery, screens me against smaller ships and protects well from Subs. I do task a SCTF along with my CV groups if there is any chance of a Surface force Encounter that my DD's would not handle. THis is where I make a CA TG. This woudl be 2 or 3 CA's 4 CL's and 6 or 7 DD/DE. I do not place BB's in these groups since I use them for Bombardment missions. They woudl get tere own TF and woudl also tag along.

UB

you have no floatplanes for scouts???

[2ndACR]

ORIGINAL: UncleBuck

If I am putting a Killer group together, I do not put CVE's in with my CV's. They are just to slow. I usually use the CVE's as an airshield for my transports. I have taken to pulling the FM-2's and the Torpedoe planes off of one CVE in the group and replacing it with an F4U- or F6F group for pure fleet protection. the Other CVE's I have in the group, usually one more at minimum, I leave as is. I use the FM2's or F4FX as extra CAP and the 8 torpedo planes for ASW. Other Makeup in CVE groups will be nothing larger than a CL and usually only one of those. In My CV groups I try not to put CA's in the group. I load it up with DD's and a few De's. I try not to place more than two CV's in the same TF, so it woudl be 2 CV's, 8 DD's and 5 DE's. I may toss a CLAA in when they show up in place of a DD. This configuration gives me a good AA battery, screens me against smaller ships and protects well from Subs. I do task a SCTF along with my CV groups if there is any chance of a Surface force Encounter that my DD's would not handle. THis is where I make a CA TG. This woudl be 2 or 3 CA's 4 CL's and 6 or 7 DD/DE. I do not place BB's in these groups since I use them for Bombardment missions. They woudl get tere own TF and woudl also tag along.

UB

The problem I see with this configuration, is that it leaves the CV's as the only primary target. CV's, CA's, BB's in a Ai combat TF will all draw attacks. With only CV's as the main vessel in the TF, they will draw every attacking a/c like flies to honey. I think you are missing out on alot of AA defense by excluding those ships from your CV TF's.

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: Oznoyng

I don't have a great answer for you, since I am still playing with it. However, here are some things to think about. All of my analysis comes from the perspective of Japan, so don't automatically apply these thoughts to the Allies.

One task force or multiple?

When a strike is launched by carriers it can only hit one target (task force), but CAP and strikes from all the ships in a hex generally combine. Therefore, it is beneficial for carriers to be split up into multiple TF's.

However, escorts from one TF do not protect other task forces from submarines. Therefore, you have to balance the need for strong ASW assets with the need to diversify your risk to your carriers.

Their is also a rule associated with TF coordination for carriers. The maximum number of planes that can be in a strike are determined by a formula. For Japan iirc, the number is 200 + rnd(100) which means 200 planes plus a random number between 1 and 100. For the Allies, the number is different. I think it is 100 + rnd(100) to start, but gets bigger as the war years progress. So, you want to look that rule up and make sure you don't end up with aircraft not utilized because they exceed that limit.

Finally, seperate TF's all have their own commander - which means that you are going to have lesser men in command the more you split into TF's. You have about 4 high quality Air Combat TF commanders at the start as Japan (nagumo, Uamaguchi, Abe, and another I can;t recall the name of atm). The effect of different commanders this is two-fold. The ships and aircraft in the TF of the lesser commander will not perform as well as if they were under the better commander. Also, the TF's will react to enemy differently, so your TF could end up in different hexes leaving your TF's with sharply reduced CAP.

How I use my ships as Japan:
CV - air combat TF's
CVL - air combet TF with CV's
CVE - the speed on these guys relegates them to escort duties. I use them to escort transport and invasion TF's in areas where Allied planes could attack.
CS - Chiyoda and Chitose go into my ACTF's after I load them up with range 7 Alfs on Naval Search. Mizuho and Nisshin go into oil convoys with aircraft on ASW.
BB - the fast two go into CV TF's, the rest are SAG/bombardment groups.
CA - these go into ACTF's, invasion TF's and SAG/Bombardment TF's. CA's seem to be the best ship for sending in with the AP's because they can counterbattery without getting sunk like a DD or CL. They also have high AA and high speed, so they go into ACTF's. .
CL - Kitakami and Oi go into ACTF's, the rest go into FT TF's and invasion TF's. I will also use them in transport TF's if they have a float plane.
DD - Really depends upon the class: Mutsuki - ACTF, Tomodzuru - FT, Yugumo - ACTF, Asashio - ACTF, Kagero - ACTF and SAG's, Shimakaze - SAG, Ootori - FT, Shiratsuyu - SAG, Akatsuki - SAG, Hatsuharu - transport escort, Fubuki - transport escort, Minekaze - FT, Kamikaze - FT (ACTF after refit), Wakatake - FT, Momi - FT.
APD - TK escorts. High AA and 10 DC racks on each of em.
PG - long range transport TF escorts leavened with MSW's and a few DD's
PC - short range transport TF escorts and ASW hunter-killer groups. Leavened by a few DD's and some MSW's.
MSW (W.1 through W.20) - Tanker escorts
MSW (all others) - escorts for all types of transport TF's.

What to put in ACTF's?
For each ship in a TF over 15, you get diminishing returns from AA. So, having more than 15 ships in a TF means the extra ships will be less protected. You should not take that to mean never have more than 15 in a TF, just understand that you will get less effect from each ship you add over 15. I put CV, CVL, CS, BB, some CA, DD, and CL(Kitakami and Oi) into Air Combat TF's. For CL's, Kitakami and Oi have radar in early 42.

1. If you have one CV in a taskforce, it will most likely be the target. If you have BB's, CS's, CVL's in the TF with a CV, the attack is likely to split up a bit and try to hit the other ships. The good news is that means less likely hits on your CV. The bad news is that the other ships might get hit. Since I would rather lose anything else to save a carrier, I generally leaven my TF's with other high priority targets.

2. A priority for AC TF's is to have high AA ships in the mix. Generally, the bigger the ship, the better the AA, so fast BB's get put into my CV TF's. I may put a couple CA's in there too because they are good AA platforms, but generally I reserve those guys for invasion TF's. They can safely take fire from most CD units while simultaneously taking the heat off AP's, etc.

3. Another priority is ASW forces. ASW TF's get really effective when they are up around 8 ships and get downright deadly at 15 in my experience so far. I would try to have as many DD's for ASW as I could.

4. Check the speed of the ships you want to put in your TF's. If they can't keep pace with your carriers, they should not be in the TF.

5. You want a minimum of one radar equipped ship in each ACTF. Until mid 42, the only ships that have it are Kitakami and Oi, so I generally place all my CV's into a max of two task forces until mid '42.

6. Pay attention to the endurance of your DD's when choosing escorts. The Tomodzuru class DD looks like a great CV escort because of it's 73 AA rating. However, their endurance of 3000 makes them a drag on the rest of the TF.

Why would you get diminishing returns for AA for TFs over 15 ships? Is some assumption being made that all ships can't be firing at an incoming raid? How novel! I wonder why all ASW ships get a crack at a sub?[8D]