Of course without Midway Guadalcanal would probably not have been attempted. But at no time did the allies order their CVs to abandon the Pacific in the way some people seem to advocate.
At best you are putting words in the mouths of others. I've never heard any advsie moving your CVs out of the Pacific entirely.
Coral Sea was a defensive battle. The IJN was on the attack. So too much of the Guadalcanal campaign was defensive in nature after the intial invasion. Even with Midway, we bearly hung onto Guadalcannal in the war. And this was late 1942.
As the US player my CVs are always in play. But not against other Jap CV units in strength. I'll fight the battle of Coral Sea in early 1942. But not Midway.
I am sure 2by3 will see the game through, until it all gets fixed.
However, I must confess that the fact the number of bugs keeps growing is slightly frightening. WitP is a great game, but at times I feel more that I am a paying beta tester than a paying customer. When I forked over the 80 dollars, I figured that the game I would be receiveing would 1) Have very few bugs, or only the nominal amount expected out of a new game, and 2) would have enough support to fix those bugs.
Now, not quite six months after release, we are being told that the next patch, which will be a long time in coming, may be it. Frankly, I am appalled, and down right scared.
When I paid 80 dollars for this game, I knew it was because it is a small "niche" game, and that because few people would buy it, it would cost more. That I was ok with. However, I expected that because so few would buy it, that enough support would be provided that the software I got wouldn't be buggy, and if it was, they would be fixed.
If I offend anyone, I am sorry, but now I am going on a partial rant. A good many of us feel this way, and I suppose someone said it.
As much as it pains me to say it, War in the Pacific has to be one of the buggiest games I have ever played. That said, it is also one of the buggiest games that stays on my harddrive, mainly because of its awsome potential. I am not blaming the testers of this game, because frankly I believe if there were 20 times more of you the job still couldn't be done, the game is just too damn big. Its because of the games scope is why I don't believe you all were responsible for the games glaring bugs, many of which should never have made it into the final product.
I understand that WitP was never going to be an "economic success", that I understand completely. I also understand that a company cannot continue improving a game when it makes them no money. However, at least in my mind, you don't charge 80 bucks for software, and then pull out before all the bugs are fixed. Electronic Arts couldn't get away with that for a 50 dollar game, Ubi Soft can't get away with it for a 40 dollar game. The only people that could probably get away with it is GTGames with a 20 dollar game. And WitP is no 20 dollar game.
What is even more surprising about all of this to me is the fact that Matrix/2by3 are two of the best companies out there. Everytime I read the "Exciting" dev update (From now on exciting is going to feel like being pinned under a burning couch to me) it appalls me. I love these two companies, and I will purchase their products in the future. But my fervent hope is either they continue to get the bugs out of WitP, or they don't make the same mistake with future releases.
If you guys want to flame me, go ahead, its your right. If the devs want to give me hell for what I've said, again go ahead, its your right. But that is how I feel. I also feel that WitP is one of the best wargames ever produced, and needs only a little bit more nudging to be the best. If I didn't feel that way, would I have spent the past 4 months doing WPO, or all my graphic mods? This game has potential, I just pray its fulfilled.
Designer of War Plan Orange
Allied Naval OOBer of Admiral's Edition
Naval Team Lead for War in the Med
Author of Million-Dollar Barrage: American Field Artillery in the Great War coming soon from OU Press.
But lets be clear the allies were not driven from the Pacific by the Japanese. Not by the larger number of IJN carriers. Nor by the long range Nells and Bettys. The allies took on the IJN twice before they had equalled the numbers.
i.e. They could and did counter the IJN offensives. They did not hide away in San Fransisco until the Essex carriers and Hellcats arrived.
They countered the IJN offensive because the IJN was dumb enough to divide their fleet. A human player is not. As a result a USN counter is not likely to succeed in 1942.
i.e. They could and did counter the IJN offensives. They did not hide away in San Fransisco until the Essex carriers and Hellcats arrived.
They did counter IJN offensives, but not of the size of KB. Can you image KB at Coral Sea?
Even Midway was a huge gamble. I dare you to set up Midway again and expect the same outcome.
Of course, you'll want all the advantages of code breaking, CAP at low altitude chasing torpedo bombers, and decks laden with bombs and fuel, as well as a force split between Midway and the Aleutian Islands.
Once again, no one is saying you should send your CVs to San Francisco.
By the same token you cannot go toe to toe with KB early in 42, and I would even concede Midway Island instead of fighting that battle. It can be taken back later. One thing this game has brought home to me is the terrible situation we really were in 1942. And the huge gambles we took with limited supplies.
Try playing the IJN side once. See how stretched your supplies become by mid 1942.
ORIGINAL: jnier
They countered the IJN offensive because the IJN was dumb enough to divide their fleet. A human player is not. As a result a USN counter is not likely to succeed in 1942.
Exactly.
I expect a human opponant to have far more respect for the USN than the IJN did during the early war. They became a victum of their own success.
LOL. You really can't be serious here Those lame brained Japs Thank god they didn't have a few WitP players on hand to advise them or it would have all worked out differently Is this really your argument
Reductio ad surdum.
But still you are missing the point. The point is that players do know the lessons of history. The Japs did not. A human player isn't going to make the same mistakes. Ever play UV? Ever see a Jap human player not reinforce Guadalcannal?
I am sure 2by3 will see the game through, until it all gets fixed.
However, I must confess that the fact the number of bugs keeps growing is slightly frightening. WitP is a great game, but at times I feel more that I am a paying beta tester than a paying customer. When I forked over the 80 dollars, I figured that the game I would be receiveing would 1) Have very few bugs, or only the nominal amount expected out of a new game, and 2) would have enough support to fix those bugs.
Now, not quite six months after release, we are being told that the next patch, which will be a long time in coming, may be it. Frankly, I am appalled, and down right scared.
When I paid 80 dollars for this game, I knew it was because it is a small "niche" game, and that because few people would buy it, it would cost more. That I was ok with. However, I expected that because so few would buy it, that enough support would be provided that the software I got wouldn't be buggy, and if it was, they would be fixed.
If I offend anyone, I am sorry, but now I am going on a partial rant. A good many of us feel this way, and I suppose someone said it.
As much as it pains me to say it, War in the Pacific has to be one of the buggiest games I have ever played. That said, it is also one of the buggiest games that stays on my harddrive, mainly because of its awsome potential. I am not blaming the testers of this game, because frankly I believe if there were 20 times more of you the job still couldn't be done, the game is just too damn big. Its because of the games scope is why I don't believe you all were responsible for the games glaring bugs, many of which should never have made it into the final product.
I understand that WitP was never going to be an "economic success", that I understand completely. I also understand that a company cannot continue improving a game when it makes them no money. However, at least in my mind, you don't charge 80 bucks for software, and then pull out before all the bugs are fixed. Electronic Arts couldn't get away with that for a 50 dollar game, Ubi Soft can't get away with it for a 40 dollar game. The only people that could probably get away with it is GTGames with a 20 dollar game. And WitP is no 20 dollar game.
What is even more surprising about all of this to me is the fact that Matrix/2by3 are two of the best companies out there. Everytime I read the "Exciting" dev update (From now on exciting is going to feel like being pinned under a burning couch to me) it appalls me. I love these two companies, and I will purchase their products in the future. But my fervent hope is either they continue to get the bugs out of WitP, or they don't make the same mistake with future releases.
If you guys want to flame me, go ahead, its your right. If the devs want to give me hell for what I've said, again go ahead, its your right. But that is how I feel. I also feel that WitP is one of the best wargames ever produced, and needs only a little bit more nudging to be the best. If I didn't feel that way, would I have spent the past 4 months doing WPO, or all my graphic mods? This game has potential, I just pray its fulfilled.
I agree, I just have this feeling things are not going to get better.
"Ours was the first revolution in the history of mankind that truly reversed the course of government, and with three little words: 'We the people.' 'We the people' tell the government what to do, it doesn't tell us." -Ronald Reagan
I make my living in a different kind of industry - one in which if you don't immediately tell your customers that you suspect that you have goofed up, you will go to prison for a long, long time. So that sort of slants my opinion on how I feel that customer service ought to be handled. I do realize that this is a different industry. But if things aren't addressed in some satisfactory manner, it will be a very long, long time before the Matrix/2x3 teams get any more of my money.
Dave Baranyi
(not a happy customer at all)
Perhaps I should mention that my last job was installation and tech support of Computer-Aided Dispatch systems used in 911 centers. There were a few times where I was calling clients one after the other with the conversation starting off like this, "One of our other clients found this bug....". [;)]
I'm not thrilled with all the problems with WiTP either. And I think their official policy of not admitting reported bugs or saying what bugs they are working on is incredibly stupid. I just recognize that it takes time to fix some things and isn't always easy.
This game does not have a learning curve. It has a learning cliff.
Oh, and yes, almost all of this shit should have been caught and dealt with before the game was released. [:@] (Keeps chanting, "High blood pressure causes strokes. I'm too young to have a stroke. High blood pressure causes strokes. I'm too young to have a stroke. High blood pressure causes strokes. I'm too young to have a stroke. High blood pressure causes strokes. I'm too young to have a stroke.")
[:D]
This game does not have a learning curve. It has a learning cliff.
They aren't bugs, they are "undocumented features"
Id put a smilie, but its not funny in this context....
No, its not. *sigh* Its really, REALLY annoying to try to report a potential bug and and basically be told "No, that's not a bug. You're supposed to get screwed over like that and we didn't put it in the manual because we don't want you to know how it works."
Scratch that, its far beyond annoying.
This game does not have a learning curve. It has a learning cliff.
But lets be clear the allies were not driven from the Pacific by the Japanese. Not by the larger number of IJN carriers. Nor by the long range Nells and Bettys. The allies took on the IJN twice before they had equalled the numbers.
i.e. They could and did counter the IJN offensives. They did not hide away in San Fransisco until the Essex carriers and Hellcats arrived.
Nor did they sit and watch the IJA take China and India while consoling themselves that such loses would not help the Japanese in the long run.
Is it just me who wants to see some clashes? Some actual fighting where the outcome is in doubt before it starts. Where one side may have an advantage but the other has a fighting chance? When people say the allies should not risk anything before mid '43 that does not sound like either a realistic game or one many people would like to play. Can't you see that it may be the game rather than the Allied and Japanese commanders in the war who has the balance of power wrong?
What worries me is that your concerns were voiced over and over again during the first year or so that Pacwar was out, and also during the time between when UV was released and WitP was released. The same conditions continued from Pacwar to UV to now in WitP - so I have a bad feeling that they won't get fixed in WitP either. I sincerely hope that I am wrong.
I am sure 2by3 will see the game through, until it all gets fixed.
However, I must confess that the fact the number of bugs keeps growing is slightly frightening. WitP is a great game, but at times I feel more that I am a paying beta tester than a paying customer. When I forked over the 80 dollars, I figured that the game I would be receiveing would 1) Have very few bugs, or only the nominal amount expected out of a new game, and 2) would have enough support to fix those bugs.
Now, not quite six months after release, we are being told that the next patch, which will be a long time in coming, may be it. Frankly, I am appalled, and down right scared.
When I paid 80 dollars for this game, I knew it was because it is a small "niche" game, and that because few people would buy it, it would cost more. That I was ok with. However, I expected that because so few would buy it, that enough support would be provided that the software I got wouldn't be buggy, and if it was, they would be fixed.
If I offend anyone, I am sorry, but now I am going on a partial rant. A good many of us feel this way, and I suppose someone said it.
As much as it pains me to say it, War in the Pacific has to be one of the buggiest games I have ever played. That said, it is also one of the buggiest games that stays on my harddrive, mainly because of its awsome potential. I am not blaming the testers of this game, because frankly I believe if there were 20 times more of you the job still couldn't be done, the game is just too damn big. Its because of the games scope is why I don't believe you all were responsible for the games glaring bugs, many of which should never have made it into the final product.
I understand that WitP was never going to be an "economic success", that I understand completely. I also understand that a company cannot continue improving a game when it makes them no money. However, at least in my mind, you don't charge 80 bucks for software, and then pull out before all the bugs are fixed. Electronic Arts couldn't get away with that for a 50 dollar game, Ubi Soft can't get away with it for a 40 dollar game. The only people that could probably get away with it is GTGames with a 20 dollar game. And WitP is no 20 dollar game.
What is even more surprising about all of this to me is the fact that Matrix/2by3 are two of the best companies out there. Everytime I read the "Exciting" dev update (From now on exciting is going to feel like being pinned under a burning couch to me) it appalls me. I love these two companies, and I will purchase their products in the future. But my fervent hope is either they continue to get the bugs out of WitP, or they don't make the same mistake with future releases.
If you guys want to flame me, go ahead, its your right. If the devs want to give me hell for what I've said, again go ahead, its your right. But that is how I feel. I also feel that WitP is one of the best wargames ever produced, and needs only a little bit more nudging to be the best. If I didn't feel that way, would I have spent the past 4 months doing WPO, or all my graphic mods? This game has potential, I just pray its fulfilled.
This was well said, Justin, and considering the amount of effort you have put into the game, it was not offensive and unjustified.
Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan
1. Destroy any Chinese land combat unit, they come back!
2. Destroy all of the Dutch Air units, they come back!
3. Sink the US carriers, they come back!
4. Sink allied light and heavy curisers, they come back!
What do you get as Japan? more mine sweepers! Oh yea, just what Japan needs the most in 1945, more mine sweepers![8|]
The name of this thread is wrong. Should be, can this game come close to simulating the War in the Pacific? Inevitably, the end result should not be in doubt. The Japanese player should win if he/she can prolong the war. Having two nukes within range of Hiroshima and Nagasaki should be the deciding factor for the games termination. Period.
But the various elements which decide the pace of the war in game terms is tough to replicate or simulate. That being said, every effort should go into attempting to correct the glaring issues such as accelerated unit performance across the board (hyper land movement, ceaseless air combat, utopian command and control, unlimited logistical support, lack of unit withdrawls, perpetual naval unit availability, completely inadequate land combat system, respawning ships.....).
So...no. The game cannot at this point come close to simulating the real war because the controlling factors are not present.
Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan
1. Destroy any Chinese land combat unit, they come back!
2. Destroy all of the Dutch Air units, they come back!
3. Sink the US carriers, they come back!
4. Sink allied light and heavy curisers, they come back!
What do you get as Japan? more mine sweepers! Oh yea, just what Japan needs the most in 1945, more mine sweepers![8|]
The name of this thread is wrong. Should be, can this game come close to simulating the War in the Pacific?
Well if you followed Dude vs Zeta - Hirohito Style - the answer may be no to any of the questions: can the Allies win? can the Japanese win? Can the game come close to simulating the War in the Pacific? It seems likely that bugs will terminate any long campaign.
The name of this thread is wrong. Should be, can this game come close to simulating the War in the Pacific?
The fact that the Japanese army fought with the Japanese navy almost as much with the allies wouldn't be much fun. The Japanese army even started to build their own navy, because of the lack of cooperation.
