To be honest, I have not looked at it since. Barely had time for the PBEM game I had going. I may try and get back to it tonight.
Just is not easy playing myself. I keep catching myself preparing for what I know will happen.
I already have a good idea of what will happen once I kick it back off though. The Japs are going to get their butts kicked.
Russia First, Hirohito.
Moderators: wdolson, Don Bowen, mogami
RE: Is this mic on?
In the Invasion: Russia II AAR, Moses seems to be defeating Russia by mid-march.
What are the differences between his and your strategies, you think?
What are the differences between his and your strategies, you think?
RE: Is this mic on?
Actually Russia is defeated by mid-January. The mopping up campaign takes a while longer but does not require a great deal of forces.
The difference between my plan and the Hiroheto plan is that I only use 5 chinese and 5 SRA divisions allowing me to remain on the offensive inother theaters. Hiroheto I believe proposed using the entire 12 divisions from the Southern area army plus some chinese divisions to take Russia.
The difference between my plan and the Hiroheto plan is that I only use 5 chinese and 5 SRA divisions allowing me to remain on the offensive inother theaters. Hiroheto I believe proposed using the entire 12 divisions from the Southern area army plus some chinese divisions to take Russia.
RE: Is this mic on?
Howdy!
When I said mid-March, I meant that THAT is when the divisions you sent to Russia will be finished with ops and available for use elswhere.
Hirohito recommends using such a large force that he pushes most other operations back by a few months, and I'm guessing that THAT is what most of the other people have an issue with. They seem to feel that this time bonus will give them time to dig in real deep in the PI/DEI.
With your plan, you say you don't push back ops in other places (Malaya/DEI), just the PI.
OK.
2ndACR says he feels that the Japanese will lose in Russia. I was wondering why, when your (Moses) AAR says otherwise.
When I said mid-March, I meant that THAT is when the divisions you sent to Russia will be finished with ops and available for use elswhere.
Hirohito recommends using such a large force that he pushes most other operations back by a few months, and I'm guessing that THAT is what most of the other people have an issue with. They seem to feel that this time bonus will give them time to dig in real deep in the PI/DEI.
With your plan, you say you don't push back ops in other places (Malaya/DEI), just the PI.
OK.
2ndACR says he feels that the Japanese will lose in Russia. I was wondering why, when your (Moses) AAR says otherwise.
RE: Is this mic on?
In my first AAR I failed to get a critical mass of troops at B in order to break through quickly. As a result the operation proceded slowly and with much greater losses to Japan. Based on lessons learned in the first AAR I changed the plan to concentrate more force at B.
The key is that you need 15 divisions at B with most of your Armor, artillery, and engineers. Time everything so that everything crosses at B and after 1 turn to remove disruption attack with everything. With this force B falls within two turns and the steamroller just goes forward from there.
Also in the second AAR I brought in 4 groups of zero's. This is essential since the nates cannot handle the russian air force.
With these modifications I don't believe that Japan can be stopped or even delayed in Russia.
With the at start forces(nothing transfered in) however, Japan will definately be stopped and eventually defeated.
The key is that you need 15 divisions at B with most of your Armor, artillery, and engineers. Time everything so that everything crosses at B and after 1 turn to remove disruption attack with everything. With this force B falls within two turns and the steamroller just goes forward from there.
Also in the second AAR I brought in 4 groups of zero's. This is essential since the nates cannot handle the russian air force.
With these modifications I don't believe that Japan can be stopped or even delayed in Russia.
With the at start forces(nothing transfered in) however, Japan will definately be stopped and eventually defeated.
RE: Is this mic on?
Does the amount of men and material that you had to invest into the Russian campaign seriously delay operations elsewhere?
No one debates the fact that there is little the Americans or British can do to help Russia, but both of the players should be made to have to make strategic decisions on where (and when) to commit their forces.
If the Japanese can easily conquer China and/or Russia (within 6 months is easy, or the Japanese would have conquered China in '38 or '39), and all Japanese players use this gambit as routine from here on out, they should not also have free run in southeast Asia/DEI/PI, if you wish to have a balanced and fun game.
I feel that if the Japanese player goes "Russia first", they will have done so because it is an ALTERNATE strategy to the historical one they tried. NOT as an addendum to the war versus the US/CW.
No one debates the fact that there is little the Americans or British can do to help Russia, but both of the players should be made to have to make strategic decisions on where (and when) to commit their forces.
If the Japanese can easily conquer China and/or Russia (within 6 months is easy, or the Japanese would have conquered China in '38 or '39), and all Japanese players use this gambit as routine from here on out, they should not also have free run in southeast Asia/DEI/PI, if you wish to have a balanced and fun game.
I feel that if the Japanese player goes "Russia first", they will have done so because it is an ALTERNATE strategy to the historical one they tried. NOT as an addendum to the war versus the US/CW.
RE: Is this mic on?
My initial view was that the hirohito plan would not be good because it would require all operations in the SRA including Singapore and Burma to be halted during the period of the Russia operation. This represented a real trade-off as the allied player would have the oportunity to attack in Malaysia while the Russia operation was going on and the capture of the SRA would be seriously delayed. This is sort of the alternate historical plan you talk of. Most people including myself felt that this would be a bad idea for Japan but still it might be worth a shot.
I felt that for the plan to really be successful it had to leave at least 7 divisions to take the SRA and take no more than 5 good divisions from china(I also keep the mongol divisions in Russia). This would allow me to continue offensive operations in China and to take all SRA objectives except for the PI on scheduale.
The test was if sending 10 divisions (plus 4 Zero groups) to russia was sufficient to gain a quick victory. It turns out that it is sufficient provided forces are massed (15 divisions plus supporting arms especially eng bde's) at B and attack without regard for losses for the first 2 or 3 days of the operation. (Note that most of these losses are just disruption and will recover without replacements). Since the Russian is not allowed to redeploy until activation this plan contains almost no risk. Once that central group of russian cities are taken Russia cannot be held.
Just to say again, I think that the success of this plan is a bad thing and should signal to someone that a few changes are needed to slow down combat in the large land theaters.
I felt that for the plan to really be successful it had to leave at least 7 divisions to take the SRA and take no more than 5 good divisions from china(I also keep the mongol divisions in Russia). This would allow me to continue offensive operations in China and to take all SRA objectives except for the PI on scheduale.
The test was if sending 10 divisions (plus 4 Zero groups) to russia was sufficient to gain a quick victory. It turns out that it is sufficient provided forces are massed (15 divisions plus supporting arms especially eng bde's) at B and attack without regard for losses for the first 2 or 3 days of the operation. (Note that most of these losses are just disruption and will recover without replacements). Since the Russian is not allowed to redeploy until activation this plan contains almost no risk. Once that central group of russian cities are taken Russia cannot be held.
Just to say again, I think that the success of this plan is a bad thing and should signal to someone that a few changes are needed to slow down combat in the large land theaters.
RE: Is this mic on?
Do you happen to know what the autovictory levels are, off the top of your head? (I'm at work, don't have the game or manual here.)
How close does conquering Russia and China put Japan to those levels?
How close does conquering Russia and China put Japan to those levels?
RE: Russia First, Hirohito.
Sorry, I just realized this is an AAR, not the War Room. I'll shut up now![X(]
RE: Is this mic on?
I'm not as worried about the auto-victory levels as I am about playing a game that has some relation to historical reality. But when I load I think the Aug 1942 scenario and look at the victory points status gained by Japan's historical limit of advance it is not that far away from levels where you could get the auto-victory. I don't remember the exact numbers and I'm away from the game. In my first PBEM game I destroyed the allied carriers very early and had done very well in terms of sinking a lot of ships at little cost. At the time I calculated that if I took the historical limit of advance plus Numea and the islands surrounding it I would get the auto-victory provided I didn't lose a ton of ships.
Based on this I suspect that a player who reaches the historical limit of advance and takes Japan, Russia, and India will win easily unless he losses a big naval battle somewhere or really comes out the worse in the air battles.
Even if it does not get the auto-victory it still doesn't seem right to me. I mean I would not be so worried if at least there was some risk to the plan. As it is I take russia easy. With these divisions I take China easily and with this mass of troops I take India easily. Its not really much to be proud of since little strategy is required. Just make a big stack and march to the objective. Crush objective. Move stack to next objective. The allies are defenceless.
Yes eventually the allies get the upper hand and can attack in the Pacific.
But thats way into 1943.
BTW I'm not hot under the coller at all. I'm just arguing/discussing for fun since my PBEM opponent has been AWOL for a week.
Based on this I suspect that a player who reaches the historical limit of advance and takes Japan, Russia, and India will win easily unless he losses a big naval battle somewhere or really comes out the worse in the air battles.
Even if it does not get the auto-victory it still doesn't seem right to me. I mean I would not be so worried if at least there was some risk to the plan. As it is I take russia easy. With these divisions I take China easily and with this mass of troops I take India easily. Its not really much to be proud of since little strategy is required. Just make a big stack and march to the objective. Crush objective. Move stack to next objective. The allies are defenceless.
Yes eventually the allies get the upper hand and can attack in the Pacific.
But thats way into 1943.
BTW I'm not hot under the coller at all. I'm just arguing/discussing for fun since my PBEM opponent has been AWOL for a week.
RE: Is this mic on?
Your not one of the one's who seems hot under the collar.
If, in a PBEM game, the Japanese players reaches the magic autovictory number, will the game end without the option to continue?
I hope, in regards to the ease at which you indicate the Japanese land formations can conquer the map, that there IS an option to continue if both players wish.
If, in a PBEM game, the Japanese players reaches the magic autovictory number, will the game end without the option to continue?
I hope, in regards to the ease at which you indicate the Japanese land formations can conquer the map, that there IS an option to continue if both players wish.
RE: Is this mic on?
under patch 1.3 it is supposed to provide the option. No one has gotten that far to verify this that I am aware of.
RE: Is this mic on?
I have no worries about whether it is in the AAR or War Room. I got hit by a monster bug in a PBEM game that had gone to July 42 on 1 day turns, that just put a bad taste in my mouth about WITP. I just can not seem to get up the excitement to play WITP at the moment. Unless Panzer sends a turn to me. That game is still pure and bug free.
Moses was just concentrating on seeing if Japan could take on Russia alone. I was going to do everything in my power as the Allies to devestate the Japanese. I was catching myself positioning Chinese, Indian forces for my massive assualt. B17's were being moved to get ready to bomb Japan into dust. Java was being beefed up along with alot of other strategic size 4 bases.
What makes the attack doable is the inability of Russia to be moved until the Japanese start their invasion. In a PBEM game, I am too much of a purist I guess. The only way I will use a unit from China in Russia or Southern Army is to change their HQ and vice versa.
This is just an exploit of something the Devs and Betas did not think players would do. Use Manchuria forces in China without changing HQ. Not sure why, a Beta is supposed to try and break it IMO.
When I was active duty in the Army we sometimes got new equipment for field testing and that is what we were told to do. Try and break it doing normal stuff. Treat it as hard and brutal as possible. That is how you work out the kinks of things.
Moses was just concentrating on seeing if Japan could take on Russia alone. I was going to do everything in my power as the Allies to devestate the Japanese. I was catching myself positioning Chinese, Indian forces for my massive assualt. B17's were being moved to get ready to bomb Japan into dust. Java was being beefed up along with alot of other strategic size 4 bases.
What makes the attack doable is the inability of Russia to be moved until the Japanese start their invasion. In a PBEM game, I am too much of a purist I guess. The only way I will use a unit from China in Russia or Southern Army is to change their HQ and vice versa.
This is just an exploit of something the Devs and Betas did not think players would do. Use Manchuria forces in China without changing HQ. Not sure why, a Beta is supposed to try and break it IMO.
When I was active duty in the Army we sometimes got new equipment for field testing and that is what we were told to do. Try and break it doing normal stuff. Treat it as hard and brutal as possible. That is how you work out the kinks of things.
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Ron Saueracker
- Posts: 10967
- Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 10:00 am
- Location: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
RE: Is this mic on?
We broke alot of things.[:D] Problem is it is just so big for a dozen plus beta volunteers to cover all the areas. Can't blame them for missing things. The leader one we noticed maybe a year ago. Teleporting units were a UV issue which was passed on to WITP. A beta, Mr Frag, basically solved the replay bug which was a huge game killer, no small feat. The one that annoyed me was the obvious one we missed...Allied players using Russian ports to rearm/refuel subs! Simply, we needed more guys and way more time. When invited in on the design process only to realize the design is basically laid in stone and you can only frig with OOB issues and tweak established routines a tad, you get disillusioned. Trying to break a game is quite boring if that is all they want ya for. Working on the ship details was fun as most of the USN stuff was drawn from Mare Island yard photos but details like that don't add much when the game is designed and written before the design concept is verified by others. This was the case before I went on a health issue hiatus. Even more bizarre to me was the pursuit of accuracy and minute detail in one area only to make the effort kinda pointless by hardcoding the respawning thingy, fully with the knowledge that the majority of the very same people they were aiming at as the target market hated it in PacWar.
Speaking of the Russian bases being used as USN sub bases. We tried to get the request for a Russian naval OOB included but were informed this was not going to happen. I suspect it has more to do with the fact that ships are not linked to HQs and perhaps would not have behaved as the LCUs and AUs with regard to neutrality and activation.
Anyway, I digress. The betas did the best they could given the time alotted and the size of the game. Perhaps they needed a few more US Army regulars/vets on the team. My best friend's Dad is a retired US Army expatriate who flew Hueys in Nam. He owns a business up here which specializes in helo gear for the US military. The one thing he stresses is robustness and redundantcy in manufacturing, especially when it's for the US military machine. Quote: "Put a US soldier in an empty room with only two ball bearings and he'll lose one and break the other...guaranteed."[:D]
Speaking of the Russian bases being used as USN sub bases. We tried to get the request for a Russian naval OOB included but were informed this was not going to happen. I suspect it has more to do with the fact that ships are not linked to HQs and perhaps would not have behaved as the LCUs and AUs with regard to neutrality and activation.
Anyway, I digress. The betas did the best they could given the time alotted and the size of the game. Perhaps they needed a few more US Army regulars/vets on the team. My best friend's Dad is a retired US Army expatriate who flew Hueys in Nam. He owns a business up here which specializes in helo gear for the US military. The one thing he stresses is robustness and redundantcy in manufacturing, especially when it's for the US military machine. Quote: "Put a US soldier in an empty room with only two ball bearings and he'll lose one and break the other...guaranteed."[:D]
Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan