COMMAND HQ Leaders

[Ron Saueracker]

OMG

I've been quoted on Dimensional Traveler's sig. LOL[:D][X(]

[dtravel]

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

OMG

I've been quoted on Dimensional Traveler's sig. LOL[:D][X(]

What? You're only just now noticing? I told you I was going to. Made the change a couple days ago.

[mogami]

Hi, Would it not be nice if people could just look at a few numbers and know everything about another person. Before elections we could have them print the numbers.
Part of the game is the hunt for good leaders. You will never be able before you actually use a person to know how he will preform exactly in every role you might require. It would suck if you could just click your mouse and the perfect leader scrolled to the top of the list.
In the game it might cost you to promote a bum (you don't learn he is a bum till after you grant him power) while all the while the guy who is going to win the war goes unnoticed for months untill by mistake you give him a command.
There is no way in advance to sit down and compute "These units with this leader will gain XX odds against the enemy in hex -----." You have to do the best you can. Don't get too hung up on stuff. War is a process not a mathamatical equation where you try to solve for X.

[Admiral Scott]

Can we all get back to my original questions please?

I paid 80 bucks for this game and the game and the manual are both incomplete.
While I wait month after month for all the bugs to be fixed, I'm trying to learn everything I can about this game.
Since the manual doesnt tell me what I need to know, I am forced to ask it here.
I think my 80 bucks deserves some official answers.

Do Command HQ leaders influence all naval and air units under their command(units from bases attached to them) or just LCU's within range???

Why should a select few people know everything about this game, but we the buyers are kept in the dark?
Getting good info from the select few about leaders is like pulling teeth.

[mogami]

Hi, Units must be within the prinited range to be effected. (Stated before ) Units outside rage will not reciece any bonus (or replacements)

[Halsey]

Try telling that to the 100,000 troops that just surrendered in Burma. It cost you XXXX amount of victory points, in a PBEM game that you might play for years. Just to find out whether he was a good choice, or not. This just adds to the frustration factor. Not the enjoyment factor.[;)]

[Mr.Frag]

What exactly would you be testing for? The leaders directly changing already calculated odds? Modification of the assault value of units? Faster disruption recovery? Any of three dozen other possibilities? Leaders have at least four different ratings that we know of, possibly more, and we aren't even given the values of two of the known ones. How do you tell which ones are affecting the outcome? How are we supposed to filter out the (we are told) numerous random factors affecting every combat when we don't even know about?

Now, that's just LCU combat. How about air units and naval units?

Simple stuff really, you have x known fields. You surmise they have some effect. You change the value and look at the results over a couple of turns worth of runs with FoW off.

Air units and ship units are no different then ground units. The leadership's modifier is simply applied in the formula. How big a difference it makes is not really important except to folks who live in spreadsheets. There are no other ratings then those listed in the database. It will become quickly apparent when changing between a 5 and 95 value which does what [;)]

What do you guys think we did in testing? [:D]

[Mr.Frag]

Do Command HQ leaders influence all naval and air units under their command(units from bases attached to them) or just LCU's within range???

Simple question, been answered many times. Command HQ's provide a bonus. There is no separate bonus for the Command HQ's Leader. There *is* a bonus for the unit leader that is taking part in the action.

There is no bonus for air or naval units hidden from you and known to us. 2by3 has been completely open on how things work without getting down into the code level of the formulas.

People tend to invent rules that do not exist and they grow into great stories. [:D]

[Admiral Scott]

Ok, Mr. Frag you are saying that Command HQ leaders dont give a bonus to naval and air units, just land units within range correct?

Do they (Command HQ leaders) effect replacement and maybe even repair rates to naval, air, and land units under their command? What I need to know is what thier administrative rating will do exactly.

[mogami]

ORIGINAL: Halsey

Try telling that to the 100,000 troops that just surrendered in Burma. It cost you XXXX amount of victory points, in a PBEM game that you might play for years. Just to find out whether he was a good choice, or not. This just adds to the frustration factor. Not the enjoyment factor.[;)]

Hi, Not sure I understand this. Are you saying bad leaders did not get commands in WW2?
A 50 will always be better then a 30 (the 30 may gain but any 50 is always better then anyone else rated at 30) So it is not like you just grope around in the dark. When you have 2 leaders in 50's out there in command you'll notice that 1 might do better then the other but it is not rocket science. I fire leaders when I see I have others in the pool with higher numbers and I have PP. I fire leaders when I think my units should be doing better. (Don't know whether it helps or not but I feel better and I keep doing things untill I get the results I want.
I can say for certain that when 1 TF is out numbered and still whallops the other the leaders and crew ratings counted more then number and size of guns.

Good leaders are force multipliers and bad ones waste strength. This has always been true in combat. It is important but it is not so hard to know a lemon before you pick him. He has low numbers (and a bad report from history) We all know who the good TF commanders are and who the good Army Commanders are. Squadron commanders are not as earth shaking but you can tell who always gets the bounce and who only flies 1/3 of his ac 1/3 of the time.

[Admiral Scott]

Ok, Mr. Frag you are saying that Command HQ leaders dont give a bonus to naval and air units, just land units within range correct?

Do they (Command HQ leaders) effect replacement and maybe even repair rates to naval, air, and land units under their command? What I need to know is what thier administrative rating will do exactly.

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: Mogami

ORIGINAL: Halsey

Try telling that to the 100,000 troops that just surrendered in Burma. It cost you XXXX amount of victory points, in a PBEM game that you might play for years. Just to find out whether he was a good choice, or not. This just adds to the frustration factor. Not the enjoyment factor.[;)]

Hi, Not sure I understand this. Are you saying bad leaders did not get commands in WW2?
A 50 will always be better then a 30 (the 30 may gain but any 50 is always better then anyone else rated at 30) So it is not like you just grope around in the dark. When you have 2 leaders in 50's out there in command you'll notice that 1 might do better then the other but it is not rocket science. I fire leaders when I see I have others in the pool with higher numbers and I have PP. I fire leaders when I think my units should be doing better. (Don't know whether it helps or not but I feel better and I keep doing things untill I get the results I want.

This is what people want to know and even the betas don't. I know I'm at a loss and the more we get into it, the more mystified and skeptical I am about how all this leader stuff comes together. Enquiring minds simply want to know from the source, not just those like us who have only vague ideas as well.

[Mr.Frag]

ORIGINAL: Admiral Scott

Ok, Mr. Frag you are saying that Command HQ leaders dont give a bonus to naval and air units, just land units within range correct?

Do they (Command HQ leaders) effect replacement and maybe even repair rates to naval, air, and land units under their command? What I need to know is what thier administrative rating will do exactly.

Huh? didn't even say that [:D]

Command HQ's provide a bonus. Normal HQ's provide a bonus. This has nothing to do with leaders at all.

The admin rating helps out in areas like training and that sort of thing as opposed to their combat rating which helps change the dice. Your primary deciding factor is their main skill catagory which governs what type of command they are good at.

[Admiral Scott]

Now youre saying leaders have nothing to do with HQ bonus'?

And a Command HQ leader's admin rating is used to help training and that sort of thing.
Ok, I just learned from you that admin helps training, but by you saying "and that sort of thing", you imply that admin rating does more than just help training.

Why cant I get a complete and detailed answer?

I would really like to know, if I have Nimitz in charge of Central Pacific HQ for example, WHAT EXACTLY DO ALL HIS RATINGS INFLUENCE.
I want to know every single function the game uses Nimitz' ratings for. EVERYTHING.

If you dont know, I would appreciate Mike Wood posting it then.

I am only concerned with Command HQ leaders at this time.

[mogami]

Wow dude your poking around messing with things you shouldn't. It's all PFM man don't you know. There is a reason the game only shows your 2 numbers per leader.
(No really I don't know. It was never important enough for me to worry about since I just fired leaders untill I found one that did as he was told)

[Skyros]

I think we are misunderstanding what Admiral Scott is looking for, I hope! For example.

The manual (p140), yes I read it, says that Command HQs give a bonus liike a Corp HQ if one is not in range. If there is a Corp HQ in range of the battle and the Command HQ is within twice its range it will have an additional affect. These bonuses are impacted by leadership values. It also states that Command HQs affect repacements and upgrades.

Page 147 states that HQs affect compbat in hexes if they have planning points accumulated towards that objective. It does not mention ranges or leader affects, or if it will affect the combat if the unit belongs to a different HQ. It does state that when a unit reaches 100 planning points it may conduct training to increase its experience rating. Again their is no mention of a leaders possible affect on training.

Page 193 talks about HQs affect on air replacements but leaders are not mention if they affect this ability.

Now I realise that I might have missed something, but I cannot find were a leaders administration ability may improve a units training capabilities. Where in the manual is that?

I think that is what Admiral Scott and others like me want to know is what can they affect? I do not want to know the formula behind it, I just want to know what to look for so if units under Patch train slowely, but those assigned to Nimitz seem to train faster I will switch them. As it stands now I do not even know to look for that.

Wow this is probably my longest post. This reminds me of when I do training at work and problems seem easy to solve because I already know how the system operates, I tested it and wrote some of the specs. The users do not have that knowledge and I have to remember that I am privlidged in what I know and not assume that everyone else knows it. You Know!

Thanks for hearing me out and I am not ungtrateful I do respect Mogami and Frag and all the others who contribute on this board.

[Halsey]

If I'm putting this unkown in charge of a multi-million dollar TF. I want his military records, his grades at Annapolis, and a security check of all his relations! Does he go to church, is he a womanizer, does he drink? I consider all these important qualifications for leading in combat![:D]

[fbastos]

I understand that there is a case for not explaining exactly what leaders do, as this is part of the mystery of the game.

The problem with that is that leaders is one of 100 different factors that influence combat/supply/replacements etc..., and all of them affect in random ways.

Therefore, even if one plays for 500 years, he still will not know for sure if this guy is performing well because he has high aggression but low experience, while another is doing poorly because he has low naval despite having high inspiration or whatever.

After 500 years, the player will just give up on trying to understand that, and will settle for his own little personal faith about what's happening. And during these 500 years someone will ask every other week "hey, what effects do leaders have?".

Listen to the community, guys, and just explain WHAT (not HOW MUCH) the leaders ratings affect.

We could very well start for the ubiquitous Administration skill.

PS: I can't believe, it's like the 20th time we come over and over to the same discussion, and yet we never evolve anything from it.

[The Gnome]

ORIGINAL: fbastos

I understand that there is a case for not explaining exactly what leaders do, as this is part of the mystery of the game.

The problem with that is that leaders is one of 100 different factors that influence combat/supply/replacements etc..., and all of them affect in random ways.

Therefore, even if one plays for 500 years, he still will not know for sure if this guy is performing well because he has high aggression but low experience, while another is doing poorly because he has low naval despite having high inspiration or whatever.

After 500 years, the player will just give up on trying to understand that, and will settle for his own little personal faith about what's happening. And during these 500 years someone will ask every other week "hey, what effects do leaders have?".

Listen to the community, guys, and just explain WHAT (not HOW MUCH) the leaders ratings affect.

We could very well start for the ubiquitous Administration skill.

PS: I can't believe, it's like the 20th time we come over and over to the same discussion, and yet we never evolve anything from it.

I can't think of anything to add to this except AMEN. The mystery of the leaders would be good if there were clues in the combat reports to help us figure things out. If you're left to read the tea leaves you wont be able to figure out the leader effects from the zillion other factors that are affecting the outcome.

Some clues on the combat report would be great:
- LeaderX breaks off attack due to high casualties.
- LeaderX rallies his troops.
- LeaderX unprepared, extra CAP not available.

Just examples. Gary has so much good stuff going on under the hood in the combat resolution, that as a player I'd love to get a taste.

[dtravel]

ORIGINAL: Halsey

If I'm putting this unkown in charge of a multi-million dollar TF. I want his military records, his grades at Annapolis, and a security check of all his relations! Does he go to church, is he a womanizer, does he drink? I consider all these important qualifications for leading in combat![:D]

And all of that (well, a lot of it, don't know about the womanizing part [:'(]) would be in his personell file sitting open in front of the guy about to assign or not assign him to a command. Evaluations by previous COs, how long he served in what positions, test scores (not so much in WWII, granted), training courses completed, etc. A great deal more to go on than a pair of numbers and one sentence.