Combined Historical Scenario - Air Groups

[Don Bowen]

Several Forum members are combining their efforts to produce a new scenario for War In the Pacific. This will be a full war scenario, based on the standard Scenario 15, with a possible extension into 1946. Attention will be paid to historical accuracy and detail. It has previously been referred to as “Ron Saueracker/Tankerace/Don Bowen's Mod“.

The scenario will be based on two “released” modified scenarios (Lemurs, Andrew Brown) and several others that have been completed for earlier WITP versions. It will feature a new map (Andrew Brown), tons of new artwork, many new ship classes and aircraft types, expanded Orders of Battle, and adjusted land unit Table of Organizations. We hope to merge the best of everyone’s work to produce an accurate and playable scenario.

A number of threads are being opened to group comments in different areas (devices, aircraft, artwork, etc). Please post in the most applicable one.

Please post comments on Allied and Japanese Air Groups and Pilots in this thread.

[Mynok]

I'll mention one thing that happened to me playing Lemurs mod that should be carefully tested. I had a Helen (Donryu) group that arrived when there were not enough Helen's to fill it. It properly filled with Sally's. However, the upgrade is now to Hiryu's (Peggy's?). It will not upgrade to Helen's.

This may be irrelevant with the next patch, as they are freeing the aircraft upgrade paths somewhat.

[2ndACR]

I have seen the same thing with A6M3 units arriving but dropping to A6M2 and their next upgrade being frozen until the A6M5 arrives.

I think the upgrade fix will help with this though.

[Lemurs!]

Yea, I have been working at fixing this problem. My newest mod is better, if not perfect.
Much of the trouble was there from matrix's creation of the scenario. Or 2by3.

Mike

[2ndACR]

I never thought to tell you about it. I figured that as long as the fixed upgrade paths were in effect, then there just was not much that could be done about it.

I also have noticed in 4.0, that there a couple of Betty groups that downgrade to Nells, but they will not upgrade until the Betty 2 comes into play. Also have seen Oscar groups downgrade to Nates, but will not upgrade until Hein's come in.

Sucks when you look at the re-inforcement screen and check the unit status and see the unit equipped with 36 Oscars, only to have it arrive downgraded to Nates because I upgraded another unit. Then they are stuck with them for awhile.

Kind of proves the "re-inforcement air units are already stocked with a/c and trained pilots" theory. If that is the case, then why are my incoming units downgrading because not enough a/c are in the pool?

[Lemurs!]

Part of the problem is the way Matrix implemented airgroups.

Should i have all airgroups arive 3 months later so we can accumulate more replacements of the new aircraft?
Should I have all groups start with old aircraft on entry and then they can follow the path up? That has problems because it limits upgrades.

hopefully, much of this will be fixed with 1.41.

Why is Ron so upset about this? The allies can not change production so they will not have every Sqdrn. with the bests planes.
The Japanese cannot produce enough supply to switch even a large amount of their production to the best planes.

I think this patch is awesome!

Mike

[TheElf]

Will the new upgrade patch allow for downgrades in times of shortages? Or to use as home defence/training groups?

Mike: Do you know which Seafire is modelled in the Game? The Mk Vb?

[Mynok]

Why is Ron so upset about this? The allies can not change production so they will not have every Sqdrn. with the bests planes.
The Japanese cannot produce enough supply to switch even a large amount of their production to the best planes.

He's upset? Why? The factories are still going to auto-upgrade (i.e. for free) along the normal lines. Anything else is going to take a lot of supply as you note.

And based on the screens I saw in the other thread, downgrading looks like it will be an option. Can I downgrade my Nates to barrage balloons until I get enough Oscars? I think they'll do better...... [:D]

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: Lemurs!

Part of the problem is the way Matrix implemented airgroups.

Should i have all airgroups arive 3 months later so we can accumulate more replacements of the new aircraft?
Should I have all groups start with old aircraft on entry and then they can follow the path up? That has problems because it limits upgrades.

hopefully, much of this will be fixed with 1.41.

Why is Ron so upset about this? The allies can not change production so they will not have every Sqdrn. with the bests planes.
The Japanese cannot produce enough supply to switch even a large amount of their production to the best planes.

I think this patch is awesome!

Mike

It remains to be seen what effect this freedom will do to the game. I just have severe reservations because I fear ways around it will be found and it will turn into a shadow of the historical aircraft inventory. Ignoring realities which combined to cause these production "boneheaded moves" by Japan will be ignored/bypassed, further diluting what sense of history and context I get now.

Downgrading is great though. Will help the kamikaze issue,training squadrons, etc.

[2ndACR]

I already blow the historical production figures out the window. By Jan 42, I am cranking out 208 Zeros per month until the A6M3 is around and then the numbers are even more per month.

So in the 1st 6 months, I have built 1200 A6M2, then my production goes to about 300+ per month once the A6M3 factories come on line.

The problem I see, is that with the way it is now, even with the editor, the arriving air units DO NOT have their a/c in them. Otherwise, why on earth are they pulling from my pool and downgrading?

Once they downgrade, we are currently stuck with whatever it downgraded to until the next set plane is available. If a Oscar 1B downgrades to Nate's, it is stuck with them until what ever it was fixed to upgrade to in the first place is available. So I could have a Oscar group arrive in mid 42 and downgrade to Nates, but not be able to upgrade from Nates until the Hien or Frank is available.

That sucks worse than anything.

[Lemurs!]

The Seafire i have modeled, and i believe the model Matrix was going for is the Seafire III.

It was about the highest production, and about the correct period.
we may need a second Seafire to represent the later Seafires on the Implacables.

Mike

[Don Bowen]

ORIGINAL: Lemurs!

The Seafire i have modeled, and i believe the model Matrix was going for is the Seafire III.

It was about the highest production, and about the correct period.
we may need a second Seafire to represent the later Seafires on the Implacables.

Mike

H. T. Lenton, in British and Empire Warships of the Second World War, gives British Carrier Airgroups and various times. Here's Implacable:


10/44
801 Sqdn - 10 Seafire FIII
828 Sqdn - 12 Barracuda II
841 Sqdn - 12 Barracuda II
880 Sqdn - 12 Seafire LIII
887 Sqdn - 12 Seafire FIII
894 Sqdn - 10 Seafire FIII
1771 Sqdn- 12 Firefly I
(828 & 841 Squadrons amalgamated in 11/44)


6/45
801 Sqdn - 24 Seafire LIII
828 Sqdn - 21 Avenger II
880 Sqdn - 24 Seafire LIII & FRIII
1771 Sqdn- 11 Firefly I


7/45
1771 Sqdn - 12 Firefly I


Lemurs - I need your mailing address!

Don

[TheElf]

Roger,
Thanks Mike. That happens to be the type I created last night[:)]

we may need a second Seafire to represent the later Seafires on the Implacables

Are you talking about the Griffon engined Seafires?

[Tanaka]

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR

I have seen the same thing with A6M3 units arriving but dropping to A6M2 and their next upgrade being frozen until the A6M5 arrives.

I think the upgrade fix will help with this though.

the upgrade will fix this for us but will it fix this problem for the AI???

[2ndACR]

I bet the AI is going to take it in the backside on this issue.

[Ron Saueracker]

Not much one can do to save the "AI".

[Tanaka]

ORIGINAL: TheElf

Will the new upgrade patch allow for downgrades in times of shortages? Or to use as home defence/training groups?

Mike: Do you know which Seafire is modelled in the Game? The Mk Vb?

got a confirmation from mr. frag on this and the answer is YES!!! [:D]

[Blackhorse]

So, wait on and I'll have a look tomorrow and see what I can come up with, or at least develop leads as to where to go next.

By the way, in addition to the heavy bomber forces, the Commonwealth planned to send tactical air squadrons. The Australians had earmarked three squadrons (no details on this), and the British planned to use P-51 squadrons as well (again no more info yet) - all details from Ehrman.

Regards,

Philip Bass

PS Now you have me interested in this. I never thought I'd say that about the RAF.

Phil,

I know how you feel. For the first time this ground-pounder is interested in researching air orbats. I was fortunate to find the May, 1945 OOBs for the British 5th Group and Canadian 6th Group on-line here: http://www.hellzapoppin.demon.co.uk/orderofbattle.htm

From what I can glean the Brits could likely have fielded 10 squadrons (at 20 planes per squadron) of Lancasters / Lincolns by the end of 1945, and another 10 in early 1946. Some squadrons were to be based in Okinawa for short-range, heavy-bombload work (forget about the Tall Boys . . . use the 22,000 lb "Grandslam" and watch the rubble bounce! [&o] ) and others in Burma / India for extended-range bombing of Japan. The 5th Group included two RAAF Lancaster squadrons, and their squadron homepages indicate that they were slated to join "Tiger Force." Two of the 5th Group squadrons contained some Mosquitos in addition to their Lancasters, so that may account for the reference you cited. However, it seems clear that 5th was going to be reconstituted en route to the Pacific -- some squadrons would be added from other groups, and some core squadrons would disband -- so any information you have on additional plane types and numbers would be appreciated.

The Canadians seem to be on track to send 8 squadrons to the Pacific in the autumn of 1945, building up to a total of 15 by the time of Operation Coronet in March of 1946.

From what I can tell so far, "Tiger Force" looks like it would have eventually brought 700 Lancasters / Lincolns in 35 squadrons into the Pacific.

Please confirm / refine / refute what you can of this information, and add whatever you can find about the tactical squadrons as well.

Thanks Again!

[Ron Saueracker]

What about combining the two DB (scouting and bombing) squadrons in the CV airgroups into one squadron and change the VF squadron to a group. This would free up space allowing the VF group to divide into 3 elements, giving the Allied player the same flexibility as the Japanese player now enjoys.

[Zeta16]

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

What about combining the two DB (scouting and bombing) squadrons in the CV airgroups into one squadron and change the VF squadron to a group. This would free up space allowing the VF group to divide into 3 elements, giving the Allied player the same flexibility as the Japanese player now enjoys.

That is the best idea I have seen so far.