Combined Historical Scenario - Land Units

[Don Bowen]

Several Forum members are combining their efforts to produce a new scenario for War In the Pacific. This will be a full war scenario, based on the standard Scenario 15, with a possible extension into 1946. Attention will be paid to historical accuracy and detail. It has previously been referred to as “Ron Saueracker/Tankerace/Don Bowen's Mod“.

The scenario will be based on two “released” modified scenarios (Lemurs, Andrew Brown) and several others that have been completed for earlier WITP versions. It will feature a new map (Andrew Brown), tons of new artwork, many new ship classes and aircraft types, expanded Orders of Battle, and adjusted land unit Table of Organizations. We hope to merge the best of everyone’s work to produce an accurate and playable scenario.

A number of threads are being opened to group comments in different areas (devices, aircraft, artwork, etc). Please post in the most applicable one.

Please post comments on Land Unit Composition (TOE) in this thread.

[Lemurs!]

The first job for land OOB is the Japanese army artillery.
As the historical scenario was written it is wildly innaccurate.
I have done some patching in my Lemurs mod, but it needs whole sale rework.

What i propose is that a couple of us strip the OOB from the standard scenario and seperate out the independent artillery and the divisions and check totals and see how we stand.

Does anyone out there have good knowledge of the subject? I have quite a bit of knowledge and sources but they are not perfect and a second person to brainstorm with would help.

Mike

[2ndACR]

I have tried to look on the net for any info about Japanese Army OOB's and TO&E, but can find nothing but books for sale.

I can find alot about German and American though.[:D]

I have been wondering why the Japanese only have 12 203mm howitzers in their entire arsenal. I think that is the number of guns over in Manchuria.

[2ndACR]

You wanted numbers of artillery pieces in Japanese Div, how about for every unit on
Dec 7, 1941.

http://www.orbat.com/site/ww2/drleo/014 ... __ighq.htm

[Lemurs!]

Already PMed you, have that site but it does not have everything.

I know there were other heavy artillery units in the Japanese army.

Don is sending me some stuff hopefully.

Mike

[2ndACR]

For the triangle divisions, there are 18 70mm infantry guns.

2 per batt, 3 batt per reg, 3 reg per div.

Triangle divisions: each has 3 regiments. also has a armor cav unit

18 70mm infantry guns
48 75mm field guns (36 in the div art and 12 more in the Reg's)
12 105mm howizters
18 37mm AT guns
72 MMG
216 LMG
33 light tanks

Square divisions: each has 2 brigades of 2 regiments. also has horse cav unit

24 70mm infantry guns
48 75mm field guns
16 105mm howitzers
30 37mm AT guns
102 MMG
288 LMG

**NOTE** These are rough numbers from counting everything on the site and adding it up. My count seems to differ from the counts below, but I guess when he did the OOB of a division, he averaged them out some.

[Lemurs!]

I came up with the same numbers but they completely contradict what Matrix gave us.

I like the numbers from that site but it will DRASTICALLY lower Japanese combat capability.

One of the problems with a staright odds combat system is it has a hard time representing unusual conditions.
As an example the Hong Kong defences outnumbered and outgunned the attacking force, yet surrendered in 2.5 weeks and caused very few casualties.

Mike

[Lemurs!]

And we do not have a number for medium mortars.
I actually have a number for 45mm and 50mm mortars but i do not have a number for 81mm & 90mm.

Mike

[2ndACR]

I have not found anything for mortars yet.

I place the number of squads for a square division as 576 infantry squads. I was working up a complete TO&E for each type of division going off his Nordiesters numbers.

Once I complete the numbers, I was going to compare them to the official division and see where we stand then.

Also, I am having a hard time figuring out the number of engineer squads. 900 men in the internal engineer battalion. If I use the 12 man squad, that is alot of engineers.

[Tanaka]

some sites that might help:

http://maisov.oops.jp/e/main02.htm

http://www3.plala.or.jp/takihome/

[Blackhorse]

Listed below are the 16 US Divisions and 5 HQs from Europe that would have participated in the planned invasion of Japan if the war had continued. With one exception, these units were to be part of Operation Coronet, the March 1946 invasion of the Tokyo Plain.

Each row contains the following information:
Division . . . # days in combat in Europe / battle casualties . . . proposed experience/morale rating . . . month unit actually arrived in US from Europe – proposed date unit would be available for deployment from San Francisco . . . name of division commander.


Unit . . . . .Days/ Losses . . . . Exp/Mor . . .To US/ to PTO. . . .Commander

2nd . . . . . 303/ 15,000 . . . . .85/65 . . . . .7/45 --10/45. . . . .MG Almond, E.M.
4th . . . . . .299/ 22,000 . . . . .85/60 . . . . .7/45 – 10/45 . . . . MG Hays, G.P.
5th . . . . . .270/ 12,000 . . . . .80/65 . . . . .7/45 – 10/45 . . . . MG Brown, A.E.
8th . . . . . .266/ 13,000 . . . . .80/65 . . . . .7/45 – 10/45 . . . . MG Miley, W.M.
28th . . . . .196/ 16,000 . . . . .80/65 . . . . . 8/45 – 11/45 . . . .MG Cota, N.D.
35th . . . . .264/ 15,000 . . . . .80/65 . . . . . 9/45 – 12/45 . . . .MG Baade, P.W.
42nd . . . . 106/ 3,000. . . . . . 75/75 . . . . . never -10/45 . . . .MG Collins, H.J.
44th . . . . .230/ 10,000 . . . . .80/70 . . . . . 7/45 – 10/45 . . . .MG Dean, W.F.
86th . . . . .34/ <1,000 . . . . . .65/80 . . . . . 6/45 – 8/45 . . . . MG Melasky, H.M.
87th . . . . .134/ 5,000 . . . . . .75/70 . . . . . 7/45 – 10/45 . . . .MG Culin, F.L.
91st . . . . .200+/unknown . . .80/70 . . . . . . 9/45 – 12/45 . . . MG Livesay, W.G.
95th . . . . .151/ 6,000 . . . . . .75/70 . . . . . .6/45 – 9/45 . . . . MG Twaddle, H.L.
97th* . . . .31/ <1,000 . . . . . .65/80 . . . . . .6/45 – 9/45 . . . . MG Halsey, M.B.
104th . . . .178/ 7,000 . . . . . . 75/70 . . . . . .6/45 – 9/45 . . . . MG Allen, T.
13Armor* .16/ <1,000 . . . . . . 60/80 . . . . . .7/45 – 10/45 . . . MG Millikin, J.
20Armor* . 8/ <1,000. . . . . . .60/80 . . . . . . 8/45 – 11/45 . . .MG Leonard, J.W.


Headquarters

III Corps* – LTG Van Fleet, J.A. arrive 10/45
V Corps – MG Huebner, C.R. arrive 11/45
VII Corps – LTG Collins, J.L. arrive 12/45
XVIII Corps – MG Ridgway, M arrive 12/45

First Army* – LTG Hodges, C.H. arrive 12/45

* = Unit already in Scenario 15 database (ver 1.3)


Bibliography:
1. For European Divisions assigned to the invasion of Japan:
“The Devil was in the Details”; D.M. Giangreco; JFQ June 1995 (magazine Article about Operation Downfall)

2. For dates that divisions arrived in the US from the ETO, and the names of their commanders:
Combat Chronicles of U.S. Army Divisions in World War II
U.S. Army Center for Military History web site giving brief history of Army divisions : an on-line compendium reproduced from The Army Almanac: A Book of Facts Concerning the Army of the United States, U.S. Government Printing Office, 1950, pp. 510-592.
http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/lineage/cc/cc.htm

3. For days in combat and casualties suffered by divisions in Europe:
ORDER OF BATTLE OF THE UNITED STATES ARMY WORLD WAR II EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS: DIVISIONS
OFFICE OF THE THEATER HISTORIAN: PARIS, FRANCE: December 1945
- - -

The next post contains my explanatory notes, suggestions for cleaning up the database, and recommendation to reduce the number of small units by attaching independent battalions to the late-arriving European Divisions.

[Blackhorse]

Notes:
The 91st Infantry division fought in Italy, and there is no official estimate of its casualties, or days in combat. It began fighting near Rome in June, 1944 and fought constantly in Italy until the Spring of 1945. It likely had well over 200 days of combat, and 10k casualties.

The 86th and the 97th Divisions actually did ship out from San Francisco to the Philippines on the dates indicated. Except for the 42nd Division, all other divisions are assumed to be available for deployment to the Pacific three months after their arrival in the US from Europe.

According to Giancreco, the 42nd Infantry Division – the division MacArthur commanded in WWI -- was the only European unit slated to participate in the November 1st Operation Olympic invasion. Oddly, the division never shipped from Europe to the States. It is hard to imagine how it could have arrived in the PTO in time and in shape to participate in Olympic. To allow at least the possibility, I have made it available in San Francisco on October 1st, 1945.

Experience and Morale: Experience is based on days in combat. Morale is inversely related to battle casualties. The US began rapidly demobilizing its European divisions well before Japan surrendered. Veteran soldiers were discharged first. There would have been severe morale problems if the US had refused to release veterans in the units earmarked for the Pacific, while others were sent home. But the army had little choice – the alternative was to release all the veterans and send green troops to the PTO for the invasion.

I have not attempted to rate the division or HQ commanders. The Army commander (Hodges), three of the corps commanders (Collins, Ridgway, Van Fleet) and one division commander (“Terrible Terry” Allen of the 104th) have historically been regarded as capable-to-excellent commanders.


Database Cleanup:

The US First Army HQ is already in the database (111). Change the commander to Hodges, and the arrival date to 451215.

The III Corps (159) starts (!) the game in San Francisco. Change the arrival date to 451015.

There are duplicate IX Corps in the database (160, 164). Remove 164.

Three of the European Divisions are in the database (13 Armor - 3250, 20 Armor - 3251, 97 Infantry – 3252) as 8/45 reinforcements. Change their arrival dates, and the names of their division commanders.


Proposed TO&E Adjustments for Divisions arriving from Europe.

The 16 Divisions arriving from Europe would have been augmented by the artillery, armor, tank destroyer, engineer and other support battalions of four corps and an army. By folding the corps and army support into each division’s TO&E as proposed below, we can limit the number of new units to twelve – 16 Divisions plus 5 HQs, minus 3 Divisions already in the database, minus 2 HQs already in the database, minus 4 redundant battalions eliminated from the database.

Attached Artillery and Engineer Battalions (All 16 Divisions)
450 155mm Howitzer +12
251 Engineers +27
252 Support +39

Attached One-half Tank Battalion (The 14 Infantry Divisions Only)
474 M4 Sherman 18
472 M24 Chafee 8
474 M4 Sherman CS 3
468 81mm Halftrack 5
253 Motor Support 33

(FYI, this represents the attachment of seven tank battalions: the 28th, 762nd and 766th, which fought in the PTO but are not in the database, the 779th and 785th which are listed as 8/45 reinforcements, the 812th which was in the US, and one additional battalion shipped over from Europe).

Attached Tank Destroyer Battalion (The 2 Armor Divisions Only)
477 M10 Tank Destroyer 36
471 M5 Stuart Light Tank 8
467 M3 Halftrack 33
253 Motor Support +69

(FYI, this represents the attachment of the 671st and 806th Tank Destroyer Battalions, which are in the database as 1945 reinforcements).

Along with the above changes, delete the following units from the database: the 779th and the 785th Tank Battalions, the 671st and 806th Tank Destroyer Battalions. (units 3247, 3248, 3229, 3249)

[TheElf]

Wow. Great work Blackhorse!

[Ron Saueracker]

Morale might conceivablybe lower for these units having been pulled from Europe to Pacific.

[Don Bowen]

Excellent work indeed. I am a little concerned with the number of available HQ and Leaders. A quick check of Scenario 15 Leaders shows only 9 empty slots. Also 5 empty Allied HQ slots. We can probably garner a few more by duplication checks, but we just don't have enough space for wholesale additions.

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

Excellent work indeed. I am a little concerned with the number of available HQ and Leaders. A quick check of Scenario 15 Leaders shows only 9 empty slots. Also 5 empty Allied HQ slots. We can probably garner a few more by duplication checks, but we just don't have enough space for wholesale additions.

We could add a few submarine HQs if there is no bigger priority.

[Philbass]

If there is a squeeze on allied HQ slots, then could I make a quiet plea for 'Force W' as an HQ. This was the small British HQ formed to control the amphibious forces of the British East Indies Fleet (such as they were) from late 1944, which were used in the small scale landings in the Arakan(at Akyab, Kangaw and Ramree Island), Rangoon (Op DRACULA), and Malaya (post Japanese surrender - Op ZIPPER). It would be commandered by Rear-Admiral B C S Martin, and at a guess would have about 50 Support Squads (max).

Of course, this presuposes that we can have the AGCs LARGS and BULOLO (designated Landing Ship Headquarters Large) and perhaps also HMS NITH and HMS WAVENEY (Landing Ship Headquarters Small - converted River Class Frigates) to carry it in, and the selection of worn out and broken down landing craft and transports that made up the Brtish East Indies amphibious forces in 1945.

Details for LARGS, NITH and WAVENEY can be found in: Lenton, H T and Colledge J J (1964) Warships of World War II (London: Ian Allen) p585.

Details of the 1944-45 East Indies amphibious operations can be found in: Naval Historical Branch MOD (1995) Naval Staff History War With Japan Volume IV (London: HMSO) Chapter 1

A complete list of Force W in August 1945 can be found in Naval Historical Branch MOD (1995) Naval Staff History War With Japan Volume VI (London: HMSO) Appendix ZB and Willmott, H P (1996) Grave of a Dozen Schemes: British Naval Planning and the War against Japan 1943-45 (Annapolis, MD, USA: Naval Institute Press).

I realise this is marginal compared to the need to fix other elements of the OOB, but would be nice to see. But then again it could all be part of my plan to convert everyone to the idea of focussing upon 'Lines of Mutual Exhaustion: War in the Indian Ocean 1942-1945'. Pip Pip. Now to see if we can have 3 Commando Brigade, a Gurkha parachute battalion, Ramree Island and a worn-out/ramshackle British Pacific Fleet train added!

Phil Bass

[PeteG662]

Signing on here for OOB work on this....let me know where I can fill in on OOBs and TOEs.

[Don Bowen]

ORIGINAL: Philbass

If there is a squeeze on allied HQ slots, then could I make a quiet plea for 'Force W' as an HQ. This was the small British HQ formed to control the amphibious forces of the British East Indies Fleet (such as they were) from late 1944, which were used in the small scale landings in the Arakan(at Akyab, Kangaw and Ramree Island), Rangoon (Op DRACULA), and Malaya (post Japanese surrender - Op ZIPPER). It would be commandered by Rear-Admiral B C S Martin, and at a guess would have about 50 Support Squads (max).

Of course, this presuposes that we can have the AGCs LARGS and BULOLO (designated Landing Ship Headquarters Large) and perhaps also HMS NITH and HMS WAVENEY (Landing Ship Headquarters Small - converted River Class Frigates) to carry it in, and the selection of worn out and broken down landing craft and transports that made up the Brtish East Indies amphibious forces in 1945.

Details for LARGS, NITH and WAVENEY can be found in: Lenton, H T and Colledge J J (1964) Warships of World War II (London: Ian Allen) p585.

Details of the 1944-45 East Indies amphibious operations can be found in: Naval Historical Branch MOD (1995) Naval Staff History War With Japan Volume IV (London: HMSO) Chapter 1

A complete list of Force W in August 1945 can be found in Naval Historical Branch MOD (1995) Naval Staff History War With Japan Volume VI (London: HMSO) Appendix ZB and Willmott, H P (1996) Grave of a Dozen Schemes: British Naval Planning and the War against Japan 1943-45 (Annapolis, MD, USA: Naval Institute Press).

I realise this is marginal compared to the need to fix other elements of the OOB, but would be nice to see. But then again it could all be part of my plan to convert everyone to the idea of focussing upon 'Lines of Mutual Exhaustion: War in the Indian Ocean 1942-1945'. Pip Pip. Now to see if we can have 3 Commando Brigade, a Gurkha parachute battalion, Ramree Island and a worn-out/ramshackle British Pacific Fleet train added!

Phil Bass

We are already working on the British Fleet Train and would love to add the British Command Ships. You wouldn't happen to have any artwork for them, would you??? I have Lenton (both old and new) but not a lot of time to work on icons. I already have two of the ex-River Conversions - using the standard River Icon. For some reason now lost to history I selected Chelmer and Waveney.

We will be using Andrew Brown's map - you can make your case for Ramree Island in his Map Mod thread (main section).

And, I think there's a good chance for 3 Commando. No knowledge of an independent Gurkha Para Battalion.

Oh, I didn't like "Grave of a Dozen Schemes" and sold my copy. Too much vague description of plans and too little hard OOB data. Also briefly had and subsequently sold "War in the Far East". I did like "Empires in the Balance" but Wilmott is not my favorite historian. I would love to reach across the Atlantic to Her Majesties Stationary Office but my credit card is too weak!

[Don Bowen]

ORIGINAL: Tallyman662

Signing on here for OOB work on this....let me know where I can fill in on OOBs and TOEs.

Pete, just go ahead and jump on in anywhere you have interest or data.

Welcome Aboard!