Combined Historical Scenario - Devices

[Don Bowen]

Several Forum members are combining their efforts to produce a new scenario for War In the Pacific. This will be a full war scenario, based on the standard Scenario 15, with a possible extension into 1946. Attention will be paid to historical accuracy and detail. It has previously been referred to as “Ron Saueracker/Tankerace/Don Bowen's Mod“.

The scenario will be based on two “released” modified scenarios (Lemurs, Andrew Brown) and several others that have been completed for earlier WITP versions. It will feature a new map (Andrew Brown), tons of new artwork, many new ship classes and aircraft types, expanded Orders of Battle, and adjusted land unit Table of Organizations. We hope to merge the best of everyone’s work to produce an accurate and playable scenario.

A number of threads are being opened to group comments in different areas (devices, aircraft, artwork, etc). Please post in the most applicable one.

Please post comments concerning Devices (weapons, radars, squads, vehicles) in this thread.

[Don Bowen]

Here is the first cut of the device modifications planned for the Combined Scenario:


Unused device 5.1in/50 M1924 Gun replaced with 3in/23 AA Gun (slot 43). World War I U.S. AA gun still in use on flush Deck DDs and a few other ships

5in/54 Gun added (slot 65) to support possible Midway class addition

3pdr AA Gun added (slot 82). Old British AA gun (about 3in) used on many older ships and merchantmen

All ASW devices (slots 105 through 117) reduced 50% (range, accuracy, effect) to reduce ASW effectiveness

Philippine Constabulary Infantry Squad added (device 362). 60% of the Regular Philippine Army was constabulary - light infantry with combat training but no Anti-tank ability.

Philippine Army Engineer Squad added (device 366). Used in all PA formations (replacing US Army Engineers) - reduced efficiency, especially anti-tank.

Vickers Mark VI Tank added (device 481) - upgrades to Valentine III (device 489)
Marmon-Hrringtn Tank added (device 490) - upgrades to Stuart Light Tank (484)
M3A1 White Scout Car added (device 511)
Older equipment in use early in the war.

Overvalwagen added (device 529). Home made armored car in use all over the NEI

Bren Carrier added (device 530). Many "armored" formations will have only these at the start of the war - especially Australian.

Alvis Armored Car (device 531). Small number in NEI.

M8 Armored Car (device 532). In use by U.S. Armored Cavalry and Reconnaissance units.

New Copy of Stuart I LightTank added (device 533) - upgrades to Grant Tank (device 486). British and Commonwealth armored units initially equiped with light tanks were converted to medium (or mixed light/medium) later in the war.

[Iron Duke]

Hi

Is there any plans to add aircraft Rocket projectiles (rp's) or is this somethink that requires code changed?

luck with the mod - can't wait

cheers

[PeteG662]

Device 377 (Russian Rifle) is not needed since it is already superceded by device 378. Only difference is date 3901 for 377 and 4108 for 378.

Device 398 and 399 are interchangeable. They have the same attributes so one can be eliminated.

Device 462 and 463 are the same thing in real life so I do not see why they are different in game terms. A 203mm howitzer = an 8" howitzer

The range difference between the .50 cal machine gun on ships versus planes needs to be addressed. One has 7000 as range and the other has 2000. Unfortunately 7000 seems extremely long considering the angle of fire and 2000 appears to be too low. Suggestions would be nice on resolving this.

[Tankerace]

Just to interject here about your devices, a 13 pdr AA GUn is the same as a 3" gun. A 3pdr AA gun (Also used in War Plan Orange) is a little larger than 40mm, which is the size of a 2pdr gun.

[Don Bowen]

ORIGINAL: Tankerace

Just to interject here about your devices, a 13 pdr AA GUn is the same as a 3" gun. A 3pdr AA gun (Also used in War Plan Orange) is a little larger than 40mm, which is the size of a 2pdr gun.

Thanks. I had a reference somewhere that had said "about 3 inch" but I looked it up and I was wrong. Its 47mm (1.85 in). You wouldn't happen to have its device values handy, would you??

[Tankerace]

Here is what I am using for War Plan Orange:

Range: 5
Accuracy: 160 (not very accurate in 1922, and without any kind of FC and being slow firing I doubt it would be in 1942)
Ceiling: 12000
Effect: 3
Penetration: 5
Load Cost: 9999

I am using the same values for the 3pdr gun (used on gunboats),, but have reduced the ceiling to 8000 as it can be an ad-hoc AA gun.

[Lemurs!]

One thing that is important to remember when computing accuracy is that 'accuracy' should come second as a small mod.
The most important variable for accuracy is rate of fire.

Mike

ps. A heavy machinegun with iron sights can shoot as far as a mile, however, you would probably never do that in land warfare because of obstruction etc.
7000 for AAA is not bad.

um, except that that is yards, isn't it? Okay, in that case 2000 or so is good for AAA as well.

[PeteG662]

The dilemma is that we have two values for the .50 cal and they seem to be based upon the platform they are mounted on so I was assuming it had something to do with accuracy issues. I can't figure out the reasoning behind the disparity yet.....

[rhohltjr]

I don't know if current Witp scenarios use these, however real B29s used 2000 lb bombs whenever
opportunity and supply allowed.

From :

http://b-29.org
505th Bombardment History

"...
The port city of Choshi, east of Tokyo, was attacked by 12 aircraft
on the night of 19/20 July with excellent results. The Group
departed from incendiary bombing and carried 2,000 lb general
purpose bombs against a precision target on the 24th of July.
The target was the Aichi aircraft factory, and it was attacked by
33 aircraft. A grab bag list of last resort targets was also hit this day. ..."

[Lemurs!]

Okay, i see the problem with the .50cal.

It is prettymuch present for all of the light weapons. 7000 yards is almost exactly 4 miles and 14500 foot ceiling is just shy of 3 miles.

Now, it may be feasible to fire a .50 cal that far but it is going to have no force left and will be tumbling and its balistics will be so screwed you won't hit anything at that range.
A mile+ is about all you are going to get out of a heavy machingun.
6000-7000 feet would be much better than 7000 yards.

Mike

[jcjordan]

Don, what about the 21" Mk18 US torpedo being included as either a upgrade for the Mk10/14 weapon or upgrade the ships as a class upgrade, not sure which would be better/easier/actually work? Some stats I have but still would like to verify them-
Range 5
Accuracy 46
Effect 575
Pen 575
Dud 50
Load 3150
Avail 9/43

[Don Bowen]

ORIGINAL: jcjordan

Don, what about the 21" Mk18 US torpedo being included as either a upgrade for the Mk10/14 weapon or upgrade the ships as a class upgrade, not sure which would be better/easier/actually work? Some stats I have but still would like to verify them-
Range 5
Accuracy 46
Effect 575
Pen 575
Dud 50
Load 3150
Avail 9/43

It would have to go in the device table. We need to determine how the devices are used. There is one empty slot after all the torpedos (slot 104). Is this the only remaining torpedo slot?? Is it the first Mine slot?? Could we put a torpedo in an unused slot at the end and have it work??

I do not know.

[2ndACR]

ORIGINAL: Lemurs!

Okay, i see the problem with the .50cal.

It is prettymuch present for all of the light weapons. 7000 yards is almost exactly 4 miles and 14500 foot ceiling is just shy of 3 miles.

Now, it may be feasible to fire a .50 cal that far but it is going to have no force left and will be tumbling and its balistics will be so screwed you won't hit anything at that range.
A mile+ is about all you are going to get out of a heavy machingun.
6000-7000 feet would be much better than 7000 yards.

Mike

In the desert during the 1st Gulf War, before the ground war started, we shot up some wrecked 2 1/2 ton trucks using the M2 .50 cal MG at a range of 2 1/2 miles.

Course we were arcing the rounds into the targets at that range. The .50 will keep a fairly flat trajectory out to about a mile and a half. After that distance, you have to start using some Kentucky windage and guestmation to hit the targets.

They will penetrate a duece and a half at 2 1/2 miles. Punch right thru. We even cracked the engine block of one of them.

The unofficial range of the .50 is "if I can see it, I can hit it".

[Tankerace]

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

ORIGINAL: jcjordan

Don, what about the 21" Mk18 US torpedo being included as either a upgrade for the Mk10/14 weapon or upgrade the ships as a class upgrade, not sure which would be better/easier/actually work? Some stats I have but still would like to verify them-
Range 5
Accuracy 46
Effect 575
Pen 575
Dud 50
Load 3150
Avail 9/43

It would have to go in the device table. We need to determine how the devices are used. There is one empty slot after all the torpedos (slot 104). Is this the only remaining torpedo slot?? Is it the first Mine slot?? Could we put a torpedo in an unused slot at the end and have it work??

I do not know.

While I was originally a supporter of this, this would not be practical. The Mk 18 was not issued widespread until 1945, and even then it did not replace the Mk 14. I say that if, IF the Mk 18 is included, to counterbalance gamey, a historical usage it should be limited to only the Tench class submarines.

Besides, as crappy as it is, the Mk 14 has a longer range and higher speed.

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: Tankerace

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

ORIGINAL: jcjordan

Don, what about the 21" Mk18 US torpedo being included as either a upgrade for the Mk10/14 weapon or upgrade the ships as a class upgrade, not sure which would be better/easier/actually work? Some stats I have but still would like to verify them-
Range 5
Accuracy 46
Effect 575
Pen 575
Dud 50
Load 3150
Avail 9/43

It would have to go in the device table. We need to determine how the devices are used. There is one empty slot after all the torpedos (slot 104). Is this the only remaining torpedo slot?? Is it the first Mine slot?? Could we put a torpedo in an unused slot at the end and have it work??

I do not know.

While I was originally a supporter of this, this would not be practical. The Mk 18 was not issued widespread until 1945, and even then it did not replace the Mk 14. I say that if, IF the Mk 18 is included, to counterbalance gamey, a historical usage it should be limited to only the Tench class submarines.

Besides, as crappy as it is, the Mk 14 has a longer range and higher speed.

Very good idea, or because it only acounted for partial loads,place them in the aft tubes of earlier subs when they become available.

[Lemurs!]

Cracked an engine block at 2.5 miles? See, i would not have guessed that. I fired a .50 rifle to just over a mile and our calculations were that the round was going to lose enough momentum to start spinning.

2.5 miles is hard to actually see; what were you doing, using binoculars to walk the rounds to the right spot?

Mike

ps. I guess we should leave the ceiling value for the .50 alone then. With tracers it would be possible.

I still say the 4 mile range for the ship-ship .50 is to long.

[2ndACR]

Actually, we were shooting the .50 on our M1A1's and were using the gunners sight for the main gun to direct our fire during the day. Night fire we used tracers and the sights.

Ship to ship of 4 miles is too far though.

The .50 sniper rifles are dead accurate out to about a mile.

[akdreemer]

Question? How many slots are available? I would like to see some of the light mortars added, for instance the US 60mm mortar:

Name: 60mm Mortar
Type: 19-Army Weapon
Range: 2
Accuracy: 8
Effect: 3
Ceiling: 0
Armor: 0
Penetration: 5
Dud Rate: 0
Anti-Armor: 10
Anti-Soft: 10
Load Cost: 2
Available: 4112
Upgrade: Same
Build rate: 20

Another unit would be a US Weapon Squad which represents the organic MGs of the CO and BN.

The M8 armored car is definitely needed...

[akdreemer]

ORIGINAL: Lemurs!

Cracked an engine block at 2.5 miles? See, i would not have guessed that. I fired a .50 rifle to just over a mile and our calculations were that the round was going to lose enough momentum to start spinning.

2.5 miles is hard to actually see; what were you doing, using binoculars to walk the rounds to the right spot?

Mike

ps. I guess we should leave the ceiling value for the .50 alone then. With tracers it would be possible.

I still say the 4 mile range for the ship-ship .50 is to long.

With the Mark 1 eyeball hitting anything at 7000 feet is problematical. Anything below 3000 feet and it will get hosed. This is not just a problem with Anti-Aircraft fire, and indeed the whole range business. I am reminded of reading how the 3" AA guns in the Phillipines were unable to engage the Japanese bombers as the bombers flew higher than the guns could fire (probably due to fusing concerns and fire control). However, in the game flying at 25000 feet the Japanese bombers are being plastered by AA fire. Why not discuss max effective range as opposed to 'max' ballistic range and use historical precedents?

Another example: In an night sea battle between a Japanese force that contained the Nagato and escorts against the Minneapolis and Salt lake City, the Japanese battleship was being hit by the 6" guns of the light cruiser at the stated range of 25000 yards. Now maybe the 6" gun could fire at that range but in no way could anyone spot the fall of shot in daylight, let alone at night. From an historical perspective examine the Battle of Komandorski. The opening fire at 20,000 yards was by the heavy cruisers on each side, the CL Richmond was unable to hit anything at that range and did not fire until targets got closer.

To get to my point, i think that all of the ranges on all of the anti-aircraft and ship-board guns need to be reduced, at least the lighter guns.