demise of board games?

[coregames]

Who in the WiF forum thinks computers will lead to the nearly complete demise of board games?

[Zap]

The only event that would save the board game is, the world losing all power sources. Thus, not being able to power up a computer we would all be forced to go back to board games.

[fahdiz]

ORIGINAL: coregames

Who in the WiF forum thinks computers will lead to the nearly complete demise of board games?

I most certainly hope this will not be the case. As long as there is a demand for them, they will continue to exist - and as long as there are people who like gaming face to face, over a few beers as part of a social event, and people who like to actually touch physical objects when they play a game, then there will be demand.

They could become substantially more expensive, though.

[pasternakski]

Board wargaming is alive and well where I come from. As usual in the publishing world, some companies are doing all right, others not so well. The numbers show a significant increase in sales over the past two years or so. This is mostly attributable to the emergence of excellent new publishers like Avalanche Press and re-emergence of relative old timers like GMT with excellent products.

There is nothing in computer gaming, for me, that can compete with a good, solidly designed paper and cardboard simulation game on an interesting subject.

[Greyshaft]

Great discussion guys but it probably belongs in the General Discussion Forum so non-WiF gamers can contribute.

[geozero]

Board games are cheaper to develop, but not necessarily to produce. Almost anyone with minimal art skills and a graphics program can design a boardgame. There are millions of printing shops all over the world that could print out the boards and pieces.

PC games on the other hand require extensive knowledge of computer code programming. This has become almost a specialized field. Why do you think it takes years for a new war game to come out on a PC? It's not that the "idea" or "creative" process takes long, it's the programming!

For example, let's say you wanted to make a "Battle of Britain" game. There are many sources out there for data and even other games. But you could quickly "create" a board games, pieces and rules in a matter of weeks or a few months. You could then print this out and be ready to sell commercially in under a year. Try doing that with a PC version. The AI alone can take months if not years to code.

The only thing PC games make better gaming experiance, can connect you to other gamers litterally world wide, and many come with built-in design editors which make the whole gaming experience that much better. But as long as there are game creators and designers out there you will see board games. They are much easier to make IMO although more limited to commercial success due to the proliferation of PC's, etc.

Perhaps if there were better gaming design PC programs that allowed you to make board games into PC versions, then you would see hundreds of new games. Only decent ones out there are Aide De Camp, Cyberboard and Vassal.

[Zap]

Geozero, its not only the interconnection between players. The time calculation of battle factors, movemnt factors, ect., is minimized when a PC is invovled. This, in my opinion, increases the enjoyment of a game. Particularly, a game the scope of a War in the Pacific. I started with board games. I enjoyed them. And would play a board game again if the right circumstances were present. You don't have to dust off the pieces with a PC game

[Nordic Twilight]

The great advantage of board wargames is as already touched upon, is the social aspect and the interaction between people. It is much more difficult ( though not impossible ) to do this with computer orientated games.

The great advantage of computer games is the book keeping / logistical element is run smoothly by your digitised 'aide-de-camps', who take the mundane but vital leg work out of the equation and allow the players to concentrate on strategy.[8D]

Take WitP..... you are not going to get a much more realistic portrayal of the conflict than this, but imagine having to work out fuel usage/endurance/ammo/supplies etc etc if it was a board wargame, and together with Uncommon Valour ( WitP's smaller but highly commendable little brother ), they are both firmly entrenched as my favourite wargame's.[&o]

I played SPI's War in Europe for years, and although enjoyable, was too generalised to be 'realistic'. WiF came the closest for me to WWII's grand strategy and was an excellent historical simulation with the odd frightener in it if your opponent did something different.
I loved the 'Ships In Flames' add-on as it made Naval Operations absolutely riveting, and at times times so scary that I felt I might 'keel over'[;)]

As time went on with BWiF, the book keeping aspect did become a chore......a necessary chore but a chore none the less, and I felt one really needed a little 'aide-de-camp', instead of the piles of aide memoires and little 'Don't Forget....' notes.[>:]

Both have there pros and cons......lets use both to enhance our hobby and interest in military history[:D]

[EnPeaSea]

ORIGINAL: coregames

Who in the WiF forum thinks computers will lead to the nearly complete demise of board games?

I that simple board games like checkers, monopoly, and scrabble are not going to disappear anytime soon. However, complex board games with extensive book-keeping will probably continue to diminish.

[CatLord]

Simple boardgames are still a must in my family. We are regularly playing the "Colons of Katane" each time we are all together (this christmas for example) despite all of us being now working or finishing our studies, and having kids.

I cannot see myself playing games on computers with my bro and sisters, but I am seriously thinking abount buying Illuminati or Vinci for the next time we see each other. To change from the usual Super Cluedo at least [:'(]

Cat

[Veldor]

ORIGINAL: EnPeaSea
I that simple board games like checkers, monopoly, and scrabble are not going to disappear anytime soon. However, complex board games with extensive book-keeping will probably continue to diminish.

Well put.

Board wargames have long since reached their limits of complexity. Computer wargames do not have such limits. Witness the WiTP example. And yet even with WiTP it is possible to imagine, as technology-programming tools-etc get better, an even more complex but still intuitive game. Not so with boardgames.

In time even the social aspects of computer games will improve. Already many play with voice-chat and headsets. One day soon we might see "video chat" right in games etc. Your face displayed on your character in that FPS game. All kinds of things already in the works. Flat Screen LCD Monitors as big as a small desk and displayed like one.

Even in boardgames many companies wish to move towards technology enabled versions to increase sales and profits. Witness games like "Scene-It". These still have boards but as technology like this increases and it becomes more common place for people to have DVR's and harddrives just for their TV's you will see the new versions coming with entirely DVD-based content (ie. gameboard etc all onscreen) and no physical components.

People do like playing around their TV's because it is very common, in America, to have large screens. Since your all physically there socializing is simple. DVD games, like console games, are very simple to use. But this is still a technology replacement for boardgames. And it works so well for Trivia Games I doubt the paper card kind can survive.

So 1 by 1 ways are found to move boardgames to technology. First were wargames because of their complexity, now it is Trivia Games, not long before its almost all boardgames entirely.

And sure we will probably always have Jenga. But boardgames will continue to move towards the very simple, very social and away from the more complex.

For better or for worse, there is little that technology cannot eventually overcome.

[Siggy]

No way. No demise of board games here. We play colonists a lot. I am also in the luxerious position to have enough players for Advanced Civilization, seven ages, history of the world, and so on. I even play Squad leader.

I simply think comnputer games and board games are two different things. I play both a lot. Some boardgames are to much fun for playing on a computer. Advanced civilization for instance is far more fun as a boardgame then as a computergame. Same goes imho for games like third reich, 1830, Catan and so on. I think you people are far too pessimistic. Boardgames will never be totally replaced by computer games.

[brent_2]

Board games wont die, there's nothing quite like working across the table with a good friend and a beverage and die in your hands....there will always be people who do it.

wargaming is a little different though...you can't quite play some wargames the way you can pull out trivial pursuit at a party for example...wargaming doesn't have the acceptance, another topic entirely though...

Geozero has a point in re digital games...how many people have a game idea trolling about?? (yours truly...) but don't have all the knowledge to produce it? I can draw, I can design calculations, I can produce graphics in a computer.... but can I program a game? not right now.... It's a barrier - no question. Heck - on my desk I have legal pads covered in ideas and hours put into research, but no time to go anywhere with it...

[ravinhood]

Me either, I mean how could the world ever give up board games like, CANDYLAND and CHUTES & LADDERS?

My personal all time favorite family game is The Game of Life. We have a blast playing that, but, I swear I always have wayyyyyy too many children in that game and always land on that college fund square. lol

I'll play both as long as both exists. In fact, I'm growing tired of computer games because they are so samey (same era, same wars, same scenarios...boring) and no real improvement on the overall game or the AI.

I'm looking hard at getting the next X-box or Playstation in the future, my nephews are getting of the age of challenge now and they aren't too excited about playing computer wargames with their uncle, but, love to play a good ole console game and beat the pants off me time and time again. lol

The question might be....will consoles be the demise of computer games?

[Custer1961]

I started paper wargaming in the 70’s. By the 80’s, endless pronouncements began about the death of paper wargaming. Among the many reasons given was the rise of computer wargames. Many believed that technology would kill paper wargames.

As it turns out, I think technology not only saved paper wargaming, but also will in the future give us wargaming nirvana.

Currently, due to technology, wargamers have the capability to produce paper wargames (DTP Wargames) with a computer and printer that are on a level of early wargames. This ability is improving as technology increases. Also, the price is dropping. In fact, it has never been easier to put your own design out. To me, right now are the golden years of paper wargaiming. Go over to the Consim sight and your eyes will behold a selection of games that could never be played by one person in a lifetime.

In the future, I see nothing but true wargaming nirvana. Paper wargames lack an AI opponent (for the most part). Computer wargames lack that design-your-own game ability because of the difficulties of programming. In the future, I see someone taking a computer wargame like Shrapnel’s “The War Engine” and putting a AI and complete printing component onto the game and literally giving wargamers the ability to design your own game with an AI and even print out the components if you want. In effect, computer wargames will not be dependent on the rare and costly person with game design and programming ability and paper wargames will not be dependent on going thru a game company. Eventually anyone can make and design a wargame with AI. In the end, paper wargames will be designed with a computer program and can even be printed or just played on the computer against the AI. Paper and computer wargamers merge into one big happy clan.

Programmers will simply compete to design the best “War Engine” program. Wargaming will be in the hands of designers, not programmers. Wargaming will not be dependent on the lengthy and costly development of each new wargame. Paper wargames will not have to pass thru “wargame companies” and will be judged in the marketplace not by a part-time game company guy.
When we stop depending on programmers to make graphics, design a game, OOB, rules and AI and simply create programs that let computer “challenged” people design and build their own wargame, the hobby will never be populated with games growing like weeds on every subject and ranging from super-complicated to super-simple.


A simple analogy:
STOP PROGRAMMING BOOKS-------START PROGRAMMING WORD PROCESSORS. LET WARGAMERS MAKE THE BOOKS.

[Veldor]

ORIGINAL: brent_2

Board games wont die, there's nothing quite like working across the table with a good friend and a beverage and die in your hands....there will always be people who do it.

Some of my favorite boardgames don't even have dice, look at Acquire.

While I understand what your saying, there are really two seperate discussions here. The demise of board wargames and the demise of ALL boardgames.

First, about trivia boardgames:
If you were to ask someone even just 5 years ago this question in regards to trivia games they would tell you something similiar to what you said above. But the fact today is, when people play Scene-It they still have a beverage in hand. They are still laughing and socializing. And possibly even more so. For those I have played it with (many who wouldn't even play trivia style games before) they find it much much more enjoyable seeing the onscreen clips and interactive questions and so forth, especially those that otherwise didn't get as much enjoyment out of trivia games because they knew less answers. Now its more fun for everyone all around.

I've yet to here someone argue why Scene-IT and further enhancements won't achieve replacing "board" trivia games.

The point is, its just too hard for most people to imagine doing things other than the ways we are already so accustomed too. After the fact, its much like an "of course so". But beforehand its always total skepticism.

PC's vs Boargames:
I wouldn't suggest that PC's alone would kill boardgaming. But technology, in general, well could.

Perhaps too though you'd have to define what a boardgame actually is. Does it have to have a cardboard "board" and dice you can throw across the room? How about an LCD coffee table that displays a monopoly board? You can even set your drink on it just like the one thats just Oak sitting in front of the TV with a monopoly board on it. Alright so you still want to "touch" something else. How about a special box you throw your dice in that has one of those laser scanners in it to read them? You could even hook that up to a PC for die-rolling in any game that decided to support it.

Physical Nature:
If the "physical nature" alone is what defines a boardgame then wouldn't a game with a lot of "gear" that you touch qualify? Couldn't "Duck Hunt" be said to be the first game like this?

You can hook an endless number of input/output devices up to computers, tvs and dvd players. Notice how much technology has improved in the last 15 years but we still mostly use the same input devices (keyboard, mouse) and output devices (monitor,printer). These are the things that are finally going to start changing and one of the main things that will improve the overall experience.

In the Future:
How bout the VRglove of Black & White fame hooked up to your TV for any of the games where you make motions? Someone is bound to find a way to integrate devices such as that to make social games a whole lot more fun than they even are today. Then playing those games without it will seem similiar to now playing a trivia game without the dvd content, disappointing and even outright boring to some.

I will likely never play an old-school trivia game again. If I play an "old-school" complex board wargame it will be out of nastolgia and not because I prefer it. I do still play Axis & Allies, RISK, Acquire, Monopoly, and a few other boardgames because, to date, technology has not yet achieved the things I've said it will.

Do you really think in the year 2105 people will still play games with cardboard (plastic or whatever) pieces? If so it would probably be as a novelty item (ie. an expensively custom carved chess set you'd rather not play with anyway). A "museum piece" if you will.

At some point in time, the demise is inevitable. It only remains to be seen whether that time is 10 years out or 100.

[pasternakski]

Disagree for reasons previously mentioned. You ought to take a look around at what's happening in the real wargaming community, where new and interesting titles are available by the dozen. What's on computer these days and where are those publishers going? HOI2? Spare me.

Besides, I have yet to have a boardgame develop a leader bug. Or any other bug, for that matter.

[Veldor]

ORIGINAL: ravinhood
I'll play both as long as both exists. In fact, I'm growing tired of computer games because they are so samey (same era, same wars, same scenarios...boring) and no real improvement on the overall game or the AI.

You make some excellent points. I agree I'm sick of computer games. But it's the fault of those who currently have to make the majority of them and not the technology. We need a set of games that really feel like something new. And AI will improve in time and as the focus of developer's change. The problem with computer games has little to do with the technology available and everything to do with the size of organizations producing most of them. This is the same reason why we still see 10 new Monopoly games from Hasbro every year for every ONE new game they actually design. Its all about what sells. And most people, for some reason, seem to want the same crap they just bought (see HOI thread).

The question might be....will consoles be the demise of computer games?

I think the distinction between what a "TV" is and what a "Computer" is, is going to become harder and harder to define as years go by.

My Computer has long since allowed me to watch TV and my TV now even has a harddrive so go figure!

TV's are simple to use as is most technology that attaches to it. Part of that is because most of us have used TV's all our lives. Not true of computers but will be true of most of the younger generation out there.

Are e-mails any less thoughtful than a snail-mail letter? A hand-written letter more valuable than a typed one? Even if these distinctions have some limited value or truths to us, the value in that distinction diminishes with each passing generation.

Some of you might appreciate a car that you can actually work on yourself. 20 years ago this was still possible and you had a choice because there weren't enough positives to the newer alternative. Today that choice is basically gone, because the benefits now outweigh whats lost, and its thus STILL near to impossible for a greater majority of people to work on their own cars. But no one cares about that anymore like they use to because the added benefits have "stacked up".

There just aren't enough advantages to technological alternatives to many boardgames today. But once those advantages start to "stack up" people will care far less about the few, if any, that remain for their boardgame counterparts.

[Veldor]

ORIGINAL: pasternakski

Disagree for reasons previously mentioned. You ought to take a look around at what's happening in the real wargaming community, where new and interesting titles are available by the dozen. What's on computer these days and where are those publishers going? HOI2? Spare me.

Besides, I have yet to have a boardgame develop a leader bug. Or any other bug, for that matter.

Well, if you actually read my posts, you'd see I am not suggesting boardgaming IS dead or even IS about to die in the next year or something. My posts are about the "inevitable" eventual demise of board games and especially the more complex ones such as wargames.

I'll be the first to say Computer Games suck these days. I'd even say most Computer Wargames, if you can even call some of them that, suck these days. But these failures aren't technology failures, nor the failure of Computer Games to achieve what Boardgames do. They are simply the result of, as I said above, mostly larger companies giving the greater masses exactly what they want, the same old crap.

The comment on boardgaming was about board wargames having reached their complexity limits years ago. I'm not aware of any "new" champions that dwarf ASL and company by comparison. As far as "innovative" titles go, that is due to the afore- mentioned abilities of some very small shops to have the capacity to design and release games on their own. And even that ability WOULD NOT EXIST WITHOUT TECHNOLOGY [:D] Without the Internet to draw in every last remaining wargamer from the farthest corners of the earth, without programs like photoshop to more easily layout at least moderately attractive graphics, without many of these technological things it wouldn't be possible at all and board wargaming WOULD already have died.

If it is true that there are wargamers among the younger generations, then you will see a similiar emergence of smaller computer wargame developers in the coming years likely with that same level of innovation that can generally only be had by the small shops. That fact is true in many many industries. Technological and "relevant" Programming skills are much more common place amongst, say the 35 and under crowd than the more typical crowd probably responsible for the majority of board wargames today (guessing mostly 35 if not 45 and older). Obviously there are exceptions but I feel the general demographics hold true.

Board Wargame designers, amongst whatever other reasons, generally make board wargames because they DONT have the ability to make computer ones.

This is just not a problem that the same percentage of younger wargame designers will experience.

[ravinhood]

I don't know about you other guys, but, this is one board wargame I'm surely getting.

http://www.wargamer.com/reviews/memoir_44/

I still have all those old Milton Bradley games like "Battle-Cry", "Dogfight", and "Broadsides". Those were some of the best fun games of the 60's I played. Just nothing like having little minatures to move around and player interaction with the game as such for overall enjoyment of the game. One of my friends and I still have some goes at these old games every once in awhile and Memoir_44 looks right up our alley.

Of course it would be nice to see this game come out on the computer as well. What the ocmputer really brings to the table for me is a solo playing partner for those many times where there just isn't someone else to play against. Though I'm getting more and more into PBEM games using the computer.

Online games just take too long and I find there's just too much fussing about "house-rules" for each particular game. It's hard to find a soul that wants to play by the rules that came with the game, never seen so many that want to stack the deck in their favor. lol

RTS/FPS will probably survive online, but, turn based games will not. Most just require too much time. Whereas PBEM one can take all the time they want and have several games going at once.

If companies keep producing games like the one above, I think board wargaming will survive quite a long time. When you think of the newcomer to wargaming the 12 or 13 year old, something eye-catching, but, easy to play, yet, still takes some time to master are great games to keep the war board gaming genre alive.

Matrix you should hire these guys, or buy the license for this game, I think it would be a spectacular entry level game for those new to wargaming.


@VELDOR

SNIPER AMBUSH (TM) is our new name for what started out as our PC UP FRONT project.

More information on this title will be forthcoming, some basic game features are listed below.

Superb A.I. Computer Opponent to Play Against.


Heh, you know that statement "Superb A.I." is going to be a doozy to liveup to. This is one of those games I look forward to, but, that "Superb A.I." sort of has me skeptical.