Battle Report to Field Marshal Rommel

bigjim · Post by **bigjim** » Mon Jun 12, 2000 4:59 am

Herr Field Marshall

The Africa Corps is doing well now that you have sent us the Tiger and Panther's, however the the optic sights are in need of adjustments, our 88's seem to be bouncing off the Americana halftracks on NUMEROUS occassions. We have captured some of these vehicles and have noticed only 12mm armour plate with little or no slope on the sides. Our 88's should be shreading these vehicles on first contact so I fear that our men are seeing hits that didnot occurr???. We will continue to track this situation as usual our troops are in high spirits as we go from victory to victory.

Oberst Heniz Gottenhiem
Heil Hitler

victorhauser · Post by **victorhauser** » Mon Jun 12, 2000 5:45 am

I recall reading somewhere in these forums that if a round has sufficient penetration, then it might pass all the way through the target without causing significant damage. this is what you may be witnessing.

P.S. I'm guessing you are just being enthusiastic and getting into your role as a kampfgruppe commander, but please refrain from the "Heil Hitler" stuff. I, for one, find it extremely offensive.

P.P.S. This is another example of why I'm opposed to the elite designation for SS troops.

Drake666 · Post by **Drake666** » Mon Jun 12, 2000 6:58 am

The Tiger could be useing HE shells on the Halftruck. They have a very low penatration vs armour. Next time you shot at a halftruck and it dont destroy it, look at what kind of ammo was used.

Paul Vebber · Post by **Paul Vebber** » Mon Jun 12, 2000 7:28 am

Remember that horizontal aspect is just as good as slope in the vertical...

Are they bouncing of (ie the message says "ricochet" of simply penetrating and not hitting anything vital?

There is a lower limit of 5% on "ricochets" meaning there is at least a 5% chance that any hit will be ineffective, whether by actually bouncing or by sinply hitting the "edges" of the target. There is also a 95% maximum, menaing even if you do get an 89% angle, there is at least a 5% chance the round will still "bite".

Actually HTs are treated the same as tanks, so they are more vulnerable than they should be. Putting an 88mm hole anywhere in the rear 2/3 is going to have little effect. Unless you are the unlucky trooper on the other side of the 12mm...

[This message has been edited by Paul Vebber (edited 06-11-2000).]

bigjim · Post by **bigjim** » Mon Jun 12, 2000 9:45 pm

P.S. I'm guessing you are just being enthusiastic and getting into your role as a kampfgruppe commander, but please refrain from the "Heil Hitler" stuff. I, for one, find it extremely offensive.

P.P.S. This is another example of why I'm opposed to the elite designation for SS troops.[/B][/QUOTE]
Sorry didnot mean to offend but the truth is that HE did exist and this game simulates a time when HE was alive, however I respect your opinion and wonder what your age is??? (since when I was born HE was still alive)
AAs to the HalfTrack situation I guess I failed to think about the "pass through" that must be happening as I am not getting the richochet message.

BigJim

Dean Robb · Post by **Dean Robb** » Mon Jun 12, 2000 9:49 pm

Originally posted by bigjim:
AAs to the HalfTrack situation I guess I failed to think about the "pass through" that must be happening as I am not getting the richochet message.

Your clue here is the report "Pen 150, Arm 20" (or whatever values). When the pentration exceeds the armor value, but no other damage is reported, you may assume a thru-n-thru.

victorhauser · Post by **victorhauser** » Tue Jun 13, 2000 12:21 am

Here We Go Again...

Originally posted by bigjim:

Sorry didnot mean to offend but the truth is that HE did exist and this game simulates a time when HE was alive, however I respect your opinion and wonder what your age is??? (since when I was born HE was still alive)

BigJim

I was born in the early 1950s, but I don't think my age has anything to do with realizing that the Nazis are possibly the worst human plague ever inflicted upon our species. The only "HE" I recognize is God, certainly not Adolph Hitler.

I am absolutely in favor of enthusiasm and enjoyment when it comes to gaming. And it is wise advice that somebody here in these forums gave when they suggested separating the horrible reality of war from the game itself and just play the game. But there is still a line of civility, decorum, and grace that we should not cross, even in fun. There is nothing funny about the Nazis. And, in my opinion, even "roleplaying" is dangerous when it involves Nazis (the movie "Apt Pupil" comes to mind).

I would love to focus solely on the wonderful game SPWAW. Call me a reactionary, call me what you will, but I still react strongly when I see our playing go out of bounds. Then I call out "foul".

In the Spirit of Harmonius Gaming,
Victor

bigjim · Post by **bigjim** » Tue Jun 13, 2000 6:47 am

Originally posted by victorhauser:
Here We Go Again...

I was born in the early 1950s, but I don't think my age has anything to do with realizing that the Nazis are possibly the worst human plague ever inflicted upon our species. The only "HE" I recognize is God, certainly not Adolph Hitler.

I am absolutely in favor of enthusiasm and enjoyment when it comes to gaming. And it is wise advice that somebody here in these forums gave when they suggested separating the horrible reality of war from the game itself and just play the game. But there is still a line of civility, decorum, and grace that we should not cross, even in fun. There is nothing funny about the Nazis. And, in my opinion, even "roleplaying" is dangerous when it involves Nazis (the movie "Apt Pupil" comes to mind).

I would love to focus solely on the wonderful game SPWAW. Call me a reactionary, call me what you will, but I still react strongly when I see our playing go out of bounds. Then I call out "foul".

In the Spirit of Harmonius Gaming,
Victor

Hmmm ok well for starters I think you are way over reacting and secondly ALOT of things have happened SINCE Hitlers time that have been very bad. I do not support what the Nazi's did nor do I subscribe to any kind of inhumanity to man, BUT I think your wrapper is abit tight you need to loosen up abit. History is there for all to see if they wish to read it and your attempts to rile me have worked I don't like your tone or your inferance about what I think or don't think. This is STILL a free country and I did MY bit to keep it that way (Viet Nam Vet) as you aptly noted in your first post it was just abit of roll play, but for your information officers in the German army who failed to use that salutation often didn't live long during that time.

BigJim

Desert Fox · Post by **Desert Fox** » Tue Jun 13, 2000 6:53 am

Unfortunately, I have seen those 'invincible' halftracks too. However, I don't see the halftracks taking 88s with no effect, I see my armored cars taking 75mm Sherman tank shells with no effect. I have turned off the messages, so I don't know exactly what is going on, but from the sounds, a good portion of these shells are ricocheting. Don't get me wrong, the armored cars rarely take more than one ricochet, but I still find it odd that it happens.
Perhaps just as odd is the fact that I can use the same armored cars to pound away at halftracks from 1 hex away and, even more frequently than 75mm shells bounciung off armored cars, the 20mm weapons simply do not cause the crew to bail or the halftrack to blow up. I seem to lose armored cars quicker to the .50 cals on the halftracks than one of my 20mm guns actually destroys the halftrack. Seems odd to me, anyways.
And as for that Hitler thing, I really think you are a little oppressed, victorhauser. Saying, "Heil Hitler" as a kampfgruppe commander is no different than saying, "Long live the King," as a British commander, or "Hail to the Chief" as an American commander. Yeah, Hitler was an evil dude, but few soldiers in the field knew about it, and besides that, he was the leader of the country they were fighting for. Its all about respect and patriotism not slaughtering Jews and commiting attrocities. It absolutely must be taken in context.

Tombstone · Post by **Tombstone** » Tue Jun 13, 2000 6:53 am

The past is the past. Hitler was a bad guy, yes... but I don't think it's bad to talk about him or for bigjim to 'play-act' a little. It was not in bad taste, and it's not glorifying the evil Hitler represents. I think it unfair to create an environment where people are uncomfortable to say things that pertain to something 50 years ago for fear of an old grudge... I believe in no supression, unless there is a clear intent to harm others or promote beliefs that harm others. It's like trying to tell a people that they can't speak a certain language because it was one spoken by our enemies. (Anyways, Hitler was just the over-eager whimp that Stalin beat so bad he killed himself. The real devil of WWII is Uncle Joe because he won. Hitler was crazy, evil, and more, but he was also a loser.)

Tomo

victorhauser · Post by **victorhauser** » Tue Jun 13, 2000 8:36 am

OK Enough is Enough...

My reactions are strenuous for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is because my father was a German Jew. Be that as it may, I would probably back off and lighten up more (as Jim suggests), but for the preponderence of "Germanophilia" in these posts... If the number of signatures were roughly equal measures of "Semper Fi", "Banzai", "Urrah", etc. to go along with the "PanzerMayers", then I could more easily go along with that.

But there is a seeming glorification of German military prowess over all others (and especially a reverence approaching religious adoration for the SS) that disturbs me.

However, this is an apology in open-letter format to everybody whose time I've taken reading my responses that have seemingly little to do with SPWAW. I will attempt to stay more on topic.

Sincerely,
Victor Hauser

Wild Bill · Post by **Wild Bill** » Tue Jun 13, 2000 9:45 am

I think it is indeed time to put this to rest, gentlemen.

No harm was meant by Big Jim. It was done in fun as a battle report from the field.

At the same time, having had family involved in that terrible period of time cannot help but have an effect for Victor that all of us should understand, if we could understand.

So all have spoken their mind. It is time to move on. I'm certain all of the folks on this forum understand the feelings on both sides. I think I do.

As to the matter of hits by an 88, I think Paul Vebber has dealt with that quite adequately.

Wild Bill
===========

------------------
In Arduis Fidelis
Wild Bill Wilder
Coordinator, Scenario Design
Matrix Games

bigjim · Post by **bigjim** » Tue Jun 13, 2000 5:24 pm

Well said Bill I will also apologize to Victor as I ment no harm, I will in respect to his feeling refrain from further role play of that manner as I have no wish to upset the community or start any type of flame war. On with the game

BigJim

Tombstone · Post by **Tombstone** » Tue Jun 13, 2000 10:55 pm

I didn't mean to sound like I was flaming anyone, I apologize as well. I do agree with you though, Vic. A lot of people are really into German WWII military prowess. What can you do though, a lot of it is not being fully informed, and a lot of it was that the wehrmacht had some really imressive moments... (I think some of it is Panzer General's fault though)
Being the bad guy isn't all that attractive, but being the bad guy and victorious sometimes is... cant blame people for being people.

Larry Holt · Post by **Larry Holt** » Tue Jun 13, 2000 11:13 pm

Regardless of any political convictions we should recognize that the German military in WWII wrote the book for modern combined arms tactics. Most (all?) military schools still seriously study German, Soviet and Japanese actions in WWII without any implication that these bad guys' political ideologies and war crimes are tolerated. (Not to slight my maternal lineage but I suppose no one studies the Italians except as a case study of what not to do.) I'm glad to see Matrix and the wargaming community here focus (& even praise if praise is due) on the tactics, weapons, etc. without any implications beyond that.

------------------
An old soldier but not yet a faded one.
OK, maybe just a bit faded.

krull · Post by **krull** » Wed Jun 14, 2000 6:42 am

Amen WB and Semper Fi!!
Roleplay can be fun but as a retired Marine
my wife says if i slip back into my old ways my wargaming days are numbered >

. SO on with the game and a patch hehehehe.

Fabs · Post by **Fabs** » Thu Jun 15, 2000 5:08 pm

I am glad that the tone of this exchange has evolved as it has, with the parties adopting a conciliatory stance. I particularly support Wild Bill's contribution.

I enjoy this forum because it supports my most favourite pastime. I have my own opinions about the political and historical aspects of the Second Warld War, but I reserve that for a different environment.

You will not find me heiling anybody, but I am convinced that Big Jim was purely indulging in a bit of fun. He should not be attacked for that.

Having said this, I have total respect for Victorhauser's sensitivity.

Many aspects of German history during that period are still subject to great controversy. Being a democrat (not as in "democratic party", but as in believing in democracy) I can not support or sympathize with any type of totalitarian regime.

Having said that, the German Military had superiority in many areas during the early and middle years of the war, and German soldiers fought mostly competently and with tenacity. It is only right that this should be reflected in the game.

Many people will have picked up different strands of opinion about German history, and will feel inclined to sympathize with sections of the German population or military apparatus by isolating them from the evils of Nazism using some appropriate formula (as in the Wehrmacht vs. Waffen SS vs. Allgemeine SS argument or the special treatment given to the Afrika Korps and Rommel).

One can disagree with them but, in a democracy, they are entitled to their opinions.

My own son, who is 12 years old and lives with his mother ( of German extraction) is one of these people. We disagree on this and I hope that growing up will give him a more balanced less ambiguous view.

However, I strongly suspect that at the root of his admiration for the German Army is his total love affair with the King Tiger tank.

What is a father to do?

[This message has been edited by Fabs (edited 06-15-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Fabs (edited 06-15-2000).]

U235 · Post by **U235** » Fri Jun 16, 2000 12:55 am

Has anyone noticed if troops riding inside a HT take casualties when there is a shell pass-through? I know the ground pounders usually dismount an there can be losses then. Just wondered if anyone ever saw the troops stay in the HT a take losses.

About the other issue mentioned here, my hats off to the folks at Matrix (and a few other companies) for showing the national flags of the participants of the conflict. To many software companies "white wash" their products, in an attempt to clean things up. While we can deeply respect the common fighting man we should always be reminded of the madness that caused the war. I think it could safely be said that every nation has some dirt on it, no country is squeaky clean.

Now let's have fun and learn, that's why we are here. You guys are the best, never seen more dedicated fans at a forum.

talon · Post by **talon** » Fri Jun 16, 2000 2:46 am

Well U-235 you may be impressed with these flags but as a german I would like to have other flags for Germany . Because of these flags its not possible to talk on this game on german forums and the game can´t be reviewed at any german wargame site because these flags are illegal in Germany . So as you plan a german file mabye the flag could be changed ?

Wild Bill · Post by **Wild Bill** » Fri Jun 16, 2000 3:26 am

That is supposed to be changed in this version. Let me verify that for you, Talon. I'll get back to this posting as soon as I know...Wild Bill

------------------
In Arduis Fidelis
Wild Bill Wilder
Coordinator, Scenario Design
Matrix Games