Alternative to "surprise" first turn

[Hirohito]

Hello All,
I have been thinking a lot about an altervative to the "gamey" first turn if you use the japanese surprise option. Everyone agrees that allowing the japanese fleets to just sail as far as they want to go unmolested isn't "historical". Someone once said to me the house rules were put in place because the japanese did not have invisible, flying boats. Point taken.

So, what could be done to make the first move more like what really would happen, not just in terms of KB sailing out to PH but in other theatres as well.

I think the solution is to start the game on November 25th instead of December 7th. And then have a set of rules to guide what moves each side can make. For the allied player the rules would be:
1. No orders to units in PH.
2. Any orders in China to Chinese forces
3. TFs can sail between any two allied ports and anywhere within allied territorial waters.
4. No TFs can be created beyond the historical ones that existed on Dec 7.
5. Air units outisde of PH and china can be given search and recon orders as long as they don't overfly japanese held territory.
6. If the allied side spots japanese forces enroute to allied targets with definite hostile intent then the allied player can give any orders she wishes.

Rules for the japanese player:
1. Give any orders you want, just know that if the allies spot you they can respond.

How difficult would it be to create a scenario like this? I would think that the campaign game scenario could be modified to start on november 25th with KB leaving port streaming towards PH and all other fleets at their historical positions on november 25th.

Does anyone know the editors well enough to comment on this?

Thanks,
Hirohito

[Tankerace]

The earliest you can have a scenario is December 1, 1941. Any earlier, and the pilots and leaders get all screwy (Hence why Matrix is making some code changes for War Plan Orange). Still, it may be feasible enough to work, even if it is 6 days later than when you wanted to start it.

[mlees]

However, there might still be combat occuring before the actual DOW. I think that the game engine automatically starts with the Allied forces hostile (and reacting) to IJ forces. Some Allied air units start the game set to "naval attack". (These would have to be switched to "standdown" or "search".) CAP or LRCAP engaging search planes and so forth. I am not sure that you can get around that...

[Andrew Brown]

ORIGINAL: Hirohito

Hello All,
I have been thinking a lot about an altervative to the "gamey" first turn if you use the japanese surprise option. Everyone agrees that allowing the japanese fleets to just sail as far as they want to go unmolested isn't "historical". Someone once said to me the house rules were put in place because the japanese did not have invisible, flying boats. Point taken.

So, what could be done to make the first move more like what really would happen, not just in terms of KB sailing out to PH but in other theatres as well.

I think the solution is to start the game on November 25th instead of December 7th. And then have a set of rules to guide what moves each side can make. For the allied player the rules would be:
1. No orders to units in PH.
2. Any orders in China to Chinese forces
3. TFs can sail between any two allied ports and anywhere within allied territorial waters.
4. No TFs can be created beyond the historical ones that existed on Dec 7.
5. Air units outisde of PH and china can be given search and recon orders as long as they don't overfly japanese held territory.
6. If the allied side spots japanese forces enroute to allied targets with definite hostile intent then the allied player can give any orders she wishes.

Rules for the japanese player:
1. Give any orders you want, just know that if the allies spot you they can respond.

How difficult would it be to create a scenario like this? I would think that the campaign game scenario could be modified to start on november 25th with KB leaving port streaming towards PH and all other fleets at their historical positions on november 25th.

Does anyone know the editors well enough to comment on this?

Thanks,
Hirohito

I have had exactly this thought before as well. It would be the best way to start a game IMHO. the Japanese player would have some extra choices to make - the more bold moves they attempt, the more chance that they are spotted by the Allies beforehand, thus losing the element of surprise. With an earlier start date and strict house rules it MIGHT work in PBEM. Not sure though.

The trick is how to decide your point 6. Possibly something along the lines of: If a Japanese TF is spotted X (not sure about the right number) hexes from an Allied base, Allied response is triggered.

When I was originally thinking about this I envisaged a two-stage trigger: When one Japanese TF is spotted too close to an Allied base, then all Allied forces are free to move, but they cannot attack Japanese forces (i.e. war is not declared by the Allies) until either the Japanese attack the Allies, or a second 'trigger' TF is spotted.

[Tankerace]

It would seem to me, a "hostile intent" would be anyone of the following:

1: Japanese ships spotted off French Indo China, heading South or South West.
2: Any Japanese ship or TF spotted near Wake Island, or past Wake Island
3: Any Japanese TF approaching 3 hexes of the PI, provided they are not transiting to the South China Sea.
4: Japanese sub in US or Hawaiian Territorial waters. Any sub spotted within 2 hexes (120nm) would ensue a de facto state of war, in that while the Allied player may not launch offensives, he is free to conduct anti submarine operations no more than 3 hexes out of Hawaii.

Just my thoughts.

[witpqs]

Just curious, have you started playing WiTP yet? Earlier you mentioned not having a suitable computer until later on, then kinda disappeared. Welcome back. [:)]

[2ndACR]

I think Raverdave is still awaiting your first turn. You did say you would play him.

Been almost 3 months and he is still waiting. That is a complicated 1st turn. My longest time for a Japanese 1st turn was only 28 hours and that was right after I got it and spent alot of time making notes.

[mlees]

Was that to witpqs, or Hirohito??

[2ndACR]

Hirohito of course. I just did not want to qoute him and forgot to reply to him.

He will know who I am talking to. He tossed down a mighty big guantlet and then slid back under his rock.

[Raverdave]

Ahhhhh Mr Hirohito has returned!

I take it that you have not forgotten about your pledge to PBEM against me ?????????????????? ( Which if I recall was going to be at the end of November 2004)

PM me for my Email address.....................................as usual I shall not hold my breath.[8|]

[mlees]

Well, from his point of view, I assume, he was met with overwhelming hostility, or unsupported criticism of his strategy suggestions. (If I may be allowed to speak for someone else...) Can be frustrating to be "drowned out" or "outscreamed" on the boards.

But, I guess, if your willing to step up to the mic, you takes your chances. I'm still smarting on guessing wrong on some of those "brady: what's this?" posts...

[2ndACR]

We need to thicken that skin of yours. Just hang around here a little longer. Some of us old dogs just will not let a bone go to waste.[:D]

[mlees]

Some of us old dogs just will not let a bone go to waste.

That's how I feel at the moment. "Meat for the grinder". Another head hanging on the trophy wall. As soon as I get an autovictory as the allied player vs AI, in '42, I will become cocky enough to let a real player b-slap me down.[;)]

[2ndACR]

Nah, some of us go really easy on Noobs in PBEM. Would not want to scare them away too soon.[:D]

Got to give them a chance to learn the ropes before you take the gloves off and really rough them up. Good opponents can be hard to find.

Of course, it us Japanese players who have a slew of opponents to choose from. You Allied players have some slim pickings for some reason. Playing the Japanese is not as hard as it seems.

[witpqs]

Actually, from what I saw he was hostile toward others. [8|][:-]

[mlees]

Could be, but I was just trying play devils advocate...

I don't think he was being strong minded just to stir the pot, I assume he feels he's justified in his strategic vision. Some folks have a stronger individualism streak in them, and vigorously defend themselves, even to the point that is beyond reasonable. (IMO) They consider it "I'm just standing up for myself...".

[Hirohito]

Hi,
I went to new york and got my computer. Then I got extremely ill. It took a long time to recuperate. To be honest, I almost died.

Now I am playing some head to head games with some friends who live nearby. I like to start up a witp club when i go somewhere.

I'm trying to learn the scenario and database editors. I want to make custom scenarios for the various strategies I have written about. The out of the box setup isn't useful for most of them. Using the theory of course that the Empire would have positioned their forces so to be most advantageous for whatever strategy they were preparing to use.

I haven't quite mastered the editors yet.

Hirohito

[Hirohito]

I got very ill and went into the hospital and almost died. Haven't had a lot of time to play witp lately.

Hirohito

[Hirohito]

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR

Hirohito of course. I just did not want to qoute him and forgot to reply to him.

He will know who I am talking to. He tossed down a mighty big guantlet and then slid back under his rock.

Actually I slid into the hospital and almost died.

[Hirohito]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Actually, from what I saw he was hostile toward others. [8|][:-]

Only in response to venemous personal attacks from people who did not have any facts to back up their accusations.