One Month at War - a Summary (ZonkerH vs ADavidB)
Moderators: wdolson, Don Bowen, mogami
One Month at War - a Summary (ZonkerH vs ADavidB)
ZonkerH and I are playing a scenario 15 game. We started at v1.40, with both sub doctrines off, a non-historical start, and surprise on. I agreed that I wouldn’t move my forces during the first turn with the exception of my task forces already at sea. We have now completed the first game month and I thought that I would share some of my observations.
First off, in general the game has been reasonably well behaved. Sure, I get the occasional CTD after I do a save, but never when I am finishing a turn. I’ve also noticed the occasional “ghost” unit appear, but they haven’t impacted anything. Movement in China continues to be a bit of a chancy thing, but I am slowly getting used to being very explicit in my movement orders so that isn’t hampering me too much.
As expected, Zonker hammered my forces in Hawaii pretty hard. He also did something that I haven’t seen happen before – he got a second strike off against the port. He did it by a very cleaver approach – he left a third of his air forces on “naval attack – port attack alternate”, just in case I sent my carriers to Hawaiian waters to try to catch him by surprise.
I then made one mistake that I’ve learned from – as I sent my ships scurrying away, I set the float planes on my cruiser/destroyer force to “naval attack/search” instead of “ASW”. This meant that the next turn, because Zonker had sent the KB west towards Johnston Island, and my cruisers were sailing S/SW away from Pearl Harbour, the float planes from the cruisers tried to attack the KB. As Zonker wrote afterwards, it would have been “embarrassing” if one of those bi-planes dropped a bomb on a flight deck, however his CAP shot them all down, and in response his naval air attack forces sank several of my cruisers and destroyers and damaged the rest. If I had set those search planes to ASW they might not have alerted the KB to the presence of my TF.
With the KB sailing slowly westwards, I didn’t bother to try to defend Makin and Tarawa, so Zonker took them without bother. Subsequently the rest of the Eastern Pacific stayed fairly quiet with the exception of a few of Zonker’s subs that attempted to interdict my shipping lanes.
The Philippines were also hit hard. Zonker took the usual approach of having CVLs sail along the western as well as the eastern coasts of the Philippines, so my fleeing task forces were hammered fairly well. He also captured Davao and Cagayan quickly which allowed him to set up air interdiction in that area. I wasn’t able to interfere with Zonker’s attacks on Davao and Cagayan because he has taken a very systematic approach to his invasions in the Philippines and the D.E.I – he covers each invasion with both air cover and surface forces.
I was able to surprise Zonker once with a surface combat force when he forgot to leave a covering force while an invasion force was unloading, but since his troops were already ashore, I was only able to sink his transports and not stop the invasion. The other time I was able to surprise him was in the Banda Sea, when he was a bit careless with one of his CVLs and I was able to sneak a carrier TF right up next to it without being seen and sink his carrier without any damage to my TF. But now that Zonker has seen that trick, he is more cautious and has reinforced that region.
Zonker has used a similar approach to taking Malaya. He maintains a force advantage at each location he attacks, and he uses Zeros to prevent my combat air from interfering with him. He now has me pinning in Singapore and there is no way that I can either bring in reinforcements or supplies. Zonker has moved in a similarly systematically manner in Luzon. I still hold Naga, Manila and Bataan, but there is no way to reinforce them, and more importantly no way to re-supply them. So Zonker is slowly depleting my supplies through bombardment attacks and air attacks.
Since we have both submarine doctrines off, I have used my subs very aggressively most everywhere. Zonker has used his ASW forces equally aggressively and has sunk a number of my subs. I’m willing to accept this trade off because although Zonker’s ASW forces are causing me losses, they are more importantly spending time hunting subs rather than doing “fast transport” attacks. Also, my old, short-ranged subs will become less useful as the distances they need to travel increase. And yes, my subs have scored few hits which are always a bonus.
In China Zonker has attacked at two locations – Yenen and Changsha. Zonker just took Changsha a couple of game-days ago, and I’m still holding Yenen, although Zonker is trying to manoeuvre to be able to cut off my troops there. One odd thing that I’ve noticed in these Chinese battles is that the HQs tend to take the bulk of the casualties. So after a while I end up with HQs with all the support troops damaged. This seems a very strange model to me – I would expect that the front line combat troops would take casualties first.
I’ve let Zonker move pretty much at will in the Solomons. He took Rabaul fairly quickly by using overwhelming force and also by dropping off forces to cut off any possible escape by my troops. I had considered interfering with that invasion by means of the carrier TF that eventually sank his CVL in the Banda Sea, but I decided that it was too hard to sustain any operations in the Solomons at this time, and I also didn’t know where the KB was. So therefore (and eventually fortunately), I sent that carrier TF off to Western Australia and its “small victory”.
Subsequently, Zonker also went after and took Shortlands and Lunga unopposed, well ahead of the historical schedule. Again, this was part of the decision I had to make about where to take a stand. Sure, Zonker didn’t use a lot of force in these two invasions, and most of his major forces are still in the PI/DEI area, but I didn’t want to risk my limited strength in a region where I can’t realistically sustain operations at this time.
This points out an important aspect of the Allied limitations in the first few months of the War – effectively, any useful Allied forces are a long ways from the front lines, and more importantly, absolutely essential supplies are an equally long way from the front lines, and move forward much more slowly. It is too easy to “out run” your supply lines at this stage of the game. Equally important is the fact that most of the Allied transport capacity is a long ways from where the supplies sit, and must be moved back quickly and carefully to avoid enemy operations, so to eventually be in a position to start to supply future Allied operations.
In light of the AARs that have documented invasions of India, I have been very conservative there and am trying to plan strategies that I believe will be able to thwart any serious invasions. As part of this I have been deliberately trying to conserve forces and maintain a mobile reserve. This has in particular involved trying to conserve air power. It is too easy at this point for Zonker to overwhelm my air forces if I allow him to attack them piecemeal. So I am attempting to build up strength in order to be able to respond to future serious attacks with significant localized force of my own. The Allied aircraft might not be the greatest planes on the map, but a hundred of them at one time and one place in the air will cause casualties in any Japanese force. The key is to not let Zonker get 3 or 4 to 1 local air superiority.
So as we go into the second month of the War, I continue to “lick my wounds” and to try to provide an elastic defence of my territories. Probably Zonker’s most worrying move at this point is his early foray into the Eastern Solomons, and its potential for eventually cutting the supply lines between North America and Australia. I will have to keep an eye on that area. I will also continue to try to take advantage of any slip-ups by Zonker, and I may well be able to surprise him again from time-to-time.
Dave Baranyi
First off, in general the game has been reasonably well behaved. Sure, I get the occasional CTD after I do a save, but never when I am finishing a turn. I’ve also noticed the occasional “ghost” unit appear, but they haven’t impacted anything. Movement in China continues to be a bit of a chancy thing, but I am slowly getting used to being very explicit in my movement orders so that isn’t hampering me too much.
As expected, Zonker hammered my forces in Hawaii pretty hard. He also did something that I haven’t seen happen before – he got a second strike off against the port. He did it by a very cleaver approach – he left a third of his air forces on “naval attack – port attack alternate”, just in case I sent my carriers to Hawaiian waters to try to catch him by surprise.
I then made one mistake that I’ve learned from – as I sent my ships scurrying away, I set the float planes on my cruiser/destroyer force to “naval attack/search” instead of “ASW”. This meant that the next turn, because Zonker had sent the KB west towards Johnston Island, and my cruisers were sailing S/SW away from Pearl Harbour, the float planes from the cruisers tried to attack the KB. As Zonker wrote afterwards, it would have been “embarrassing” if one of those bi-planes dropped a bomb on a flight deck, however his CAP shot them all down, and in response his naval air attack forces sank several of my cruisers and destroyers and damaged the rest. If I had set those search planes to ASW they might not have alerted the KB to the presence of my TF.
With the KB sailing slowly westwards, I didn’t bother to try to defend Makin and Tarawa, so Zonker took them without bother. Subsequently the rest of the Eastern Pacific stayed fairly quiet with the exception of a few of Zonker’s subs that attempted to interdict my shipping lanes.
The Philippines were also hit hard. Zonker took the usual approach of having CVLs sail along the western as well as the eastern coasts of the Philippines, so my fleeing task forces were hammered fairly well. He also captured Davao and Cagayan quickly which allowed him to set up air interdiction in that area. I wasn’t able to interfere with Zonker’s attacks on Davao and Cagayan because he has taken a very systematic approach to his invasions in the Philippines and the D.E.I – he covers each invasion with both air cover and surface forces.
I was able to surprise Zonker once with a surface combat force when he forgot to leave a covering force while an invasion force was unloading, but since his troops were already ashore, I was only able to sink his transports and not stop the invasion. The other time I was able to surprise him was in the Banda Sea, when he was a bit careless with one of his CVLs and I was able to sneak a carrier TF right up next to it without being seen and sink his carrier without any damage to my TF. But now that Zonker has seen that trick, he is more cautious and has reinforced that region.
Zonker has used a similar approach to taking Malaya. He maintains a force advantage at each location he attacks, and he uses Zeros to prevent my combat air from interfering with him. He now has me pinning in Singapore and there is no way that I can either bring in reinforcements or supplies. Zonker has moved in a similarly systematically manner in Luzon. I still hold Naga, Manila and Bataan, but there is no way to reinforce them, and more importantly no way to re-supply them. So Zonker is slowly depleting my supplies through bombardment attacks and air attacks.
Since we have both submarine doctrines off, I have used my subs very aggressively most everywhere. Zonker has used his ASW forces equally aggressively and has sunk a number of my subs. I’m willing to accept this trade off because although Zonker’s ASW forces are causing me losses, they are more importantly spending time hunting subs rather than doing “fast transport” attacks. Also, my old, short-ranged subs will become less useful as the distances they need to travel increase. And yes, my subs have scored few hits which are always a bonus.
In China Zonker has attacked at two locations – Yenen and Changsha. Zonker just took Changsha a couple of game-days ago, and I’m still holding Yenen, although Zonker is trying to manoeuvre to be able to cut off my troops there. One odd thing that I’ve noticed in these Chinese battles is that the HQs tend to take the bulk of the casualties. So after a while I end up with HQs with all the support troops damaged. This seems a very strange model to me – I would expect that the front line combat troops would take casualties first.
I’ve let Zonker move pretty much at will in the Solomons. He took Rabaul fairly quickly by using overwhelming force and also by dropping off forces to cut off any possible escape by my troops. I had considered interfering with that invasion by means of the carrier TF that eventually sank his CVL in the Banda Sea, but I decided that it was too hard to sustain any operations in the Solomons at this time, and I also didn’t know where the KB was. So therefore (and eventually fortunately), I sent that carrier TF off to Western Australia and its “small victory”.
Subsequently, Zonker also went after and took Shortlands and Lunga unopposed, well ahead of the historical schedule. Again, this was part of the decision I had to make about where to take a stand. Sure, Zonker didn’t use a lot of force in these two invasions, and most of his major forces are still in the PI/DEI area, but I didn’t want to risk my limited strength in a region where I can’t realistically sustain operations at this time.
This points out an important aspect of the Allied limitations in the first few months of the War – effectively, any useful Allied forces are a long ways from the front lines, and more importantly, absolutely essential supplies are an equally long way from the front lines, and move forward much more slowly. It is too easy to “out run” your supply lines at this stage of the game. Equally important is the fact that most of the Allied transport capacity is a long ways from where the supplies sit, and must be moved back quickly and carefully to avoid enemy operations, so to eventually be in a position to start to supply future Allied operations.
In light of the AARs that have documented invasions of India, I have been very conservative there and am trying to plan strategies that I believe will be able to thwart any serious invasions. As part of this I have been deliberately trying to conserve forces and maintain a mobile reserve. This has in particular involved trying to conserve air power. It is too easy at this point for Zonker to overwhelm my air forces if I allow him to attack them piecemeal. So I am attempting to build up strength in order to be able to respond to future serious attacks with significant localized force of my own. The Allied aircraft might not be the greatest planes on the map, but a hundred of them at one time and one place in the air will cause casualties in any Japanese force. The key is to not let Zonker get 3 or 4 to 1 local air superiority.
So as we go into the second month of the War, I continue to “lick my wounds” and to try to provide an elastic defence of my territories. Probably Zonker’s most worrying move at this point is his early foray into the Eastern Solomons, and its potential for eventually cutting the supply lines between North America and Australia. I will have to keep an eye on that area. I will also continue to try to take advantage of any slip-ups by Zonker, and I may well be able to surprise him again from time-to-time.
Dave Baranyi
- ZonkerHarris
- Posts: 83
- Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2004 1:14 pm
- Location: Walden Puddle
RE: One Month at War - a Summary (ZonkerH vs ADavidB)
Dave's summed up the game to date pretty well, so I don't have too much to add to that discussion. As he said, I've been taking a fairly methodical approach to my advances and have tried to leave as little as possible to chance. A good thing, too, I think, as he's done a good job of picking his moments to counterattack. I've also tried to keep things fairly reasonable in terms of what could have happened in the real world. Accordingly, I didn't go invading the entire map on turn 1 as some folks seem to do.
Overall, I'm pretty happy with the state of the game. My Zeros, Bettys and Nells control the Java and China seas, Rabaul and Tarawa are operational and building up nicely, and I've got a bit of a head start on seizing territory that will prove useful in the future. I still have to take Sumatra, Java and perhaps Timor, but other than that I own all of the major bases in the NEI, or will in the next few turns. Oil is flowing back to the Home Islands, and my industries are coming along nicely. I have some work to do in reducing Singapore, Manila and Bataan, and some less-challenging mopping up to do in the Philippines as well.
The loss of Ryujo stings, of course, but Shoho has joined the fleet and is off to rendezvous with her first assignment, so I should be able to keep my commitments covered. I wouldn't have minded losing Ryujo so much if she'd done some damage in return -- 13 of her Kates had a shot at the Lexington, but not one of their torpedos hit. I doubt that they'd have sunk the tough old ex-BC, but sending her to the yards for a few months would really have helped things. But for all that's gone on, Kido Butai is in good shape and lurking out of sight at a location (or locations) near where Dave might be tempted to try another little raid.
The real question, of course, is where the war will be decided. (I won't try to answer it in this post, for obvious reasons.) I've been reading the same AARs as Dave about invasions of India, and they certainly present an interesting option. Then again, there are other interesting targets around. But the clock's clearly running. The turn I ran tonight featured the first significant B-17 raid of the war, and while it was just a nuisance, I don't expect the Allies' heavy bombers to remain in that category for long.
From my perspective, the main lesson learned is that there's a big step up from playing against the AI as Japan to playing Japan against a human. I will certainly do a much better job of it in my next game. (That combined historical scenario that a bunch of folks are working on in the scenario design forum looks interesting.)
Overall, I'm pretty happy with the state of the game. My Zeros, Bettys and Nells control the Java and China seas, Rabaul and Tarawa are operational and building up nicely, and I've got a bit of a head start on seizing territory that will prove useful in the future. I still have to take Sumatra, Java and perhaps Timor, but other than that I own all of the major bases in the NEI, or will in the next few turns. Oil is flowing back to the Home Islands, and my industries are coming along nicely. I have some work to do in reducing Singapore, Manila and Bataan, and some less-challenging mopping up to do in the Philippines as well.
The loss of Ryujo stings, of course, but Shoho has joined the fleet and is off to rendezvous with her first assignment, so I should be able to keep my commitments covered. I wouldn't have minded losing Ryujo so much if she'd done some damage in return -- 13 of her Kates had a shot at the Lexington, but not one of their torpedos hit. I doubt that they'd have sunk the tough old ex-BC, but sending her to the yards for a few months would really have helped things. But for all that's gone on, Kido Butai is in good shape and lurking out of sight at a location (or locations) near where Dave might be tempted to try another little raid.
The real question, of course, is where the war will be decided. (I won't try to answer it in this post, for obvious reasons.) I've been reading the same AARs as Dave about invasions of India, and they certainly present an interesting option. Then again, there are other interesting targets around. But the clock's clearly running. The turn I ran tonight featured the first significant B-17 raid of the war, and while it was just a nuisance, I don't expect the Allies' heavy bombers to remain in that category for long.
From my perspective, the main lesson learned is that there's a big step up from playing against the AI as Japan to playing Japan against a human. I will certainly do a much better job of it in my next game. (That combined historical scenario that a bunch of folks are working on in the scenario design forum looks interesting.)
"All right you primitive screwheads, listen up. See this? This is my boomstick!"
- Tom Hunter
- Posts: 2194
- Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2004 1:57 am
RE: One Month at War - a Summary (ZonkerH vs ADavidB)
I like this sort of AAR the endless scrolling through combat reports gives too much useless information.
Where was the first heavy bomber attack?
In Wobbly Vs PnzB I think Wobbly committed very heavily in Burma. In fact I think he still holds it give or take a bit. I doubt that anyone will make that kind of mistake again (I won't) Blackwatch and I are about 3 game weeks ahead its interesting to see the similarities and also differences in our games. Keep posting.
Tom
Where was the first heavy bomber attack?
In Wobbly Vs PnzB I think Wobbly committed very heavily in Burma. In fact I think he still holds it give or take a bit. I doubt that anyone will make that kind of mistake again (I won't) Blackwatch and I are about 3 game weeks ahead its interesting to see the similarities and also differences in our games. Keep posting.
Tom
RE: One Month at War - a Summary (ZonkerH vs ADavidB)
ORIGINAL: Tom Hunter
I like this sort of AAR the endless scrolling through combat reports gives too much useless information.
Where was the first heavy bomber attack?
In Wobbly Vs PnzB I think Wobbly committed very heavily in Burma. In fact I think he still holds it give or take a bit. I doubt that anyone will make that kind of mistake again (I won't) Blackwatch and I are about 3 game weeks ahead its interesting to see the similarities and also differences in our games. Keep posting.
Tom
The B-17s hit Rangoon. I pulled out of Eastern Burma quickly. While it is easy to hold Rangoon against the AI - just pull everything that moves out of India and ship it all to Rangoon - against a human opponent that is a recipe for disaster.
The rate Zonker and I are going, we ought to be in early February soon in "real time". (The weather is lousy up here, so it's easy for me to find the time to turn around turns.)
Thanks for the comments.
Dave Baranyi
- ZonkerHarris
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- Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2004 1:14 pm
- Location: Walden Puddle
RE: One Month at War - a Summary (ZonkerH vs ADavidB)
I was a bit late in starting the siege of Singapore, but it looks like it's going to be a short one. My first deliberate attack went in at one-to-one odds and knocked the forts down to level 6. Better still, my units were in good enough shape to continue the attack directly; another one-to-one on the next turn cut another level off the forts. The siege of Manila will take a little longer, my first attacks resulted in a bit more disruption, so I'll have to bombard for a turn before pressing the attack there.
Dave's B-17s visited Rangoon again (flying from Calcutta, I believe). I have a plan or two for dealing with them in the short term; I'm just not at all sure that it will work.
Dave's B-17s visited Rangoon again (flying from Calcutta, I believe). I have a plan or two for dealing with them in the short term; I'm just not at all sure that it will work.
"All right you primitive screwheads, listen up. See this? This is my boomstick!"
- Tom Hunter
- Posts: 2194
- Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2004 1:57 am
RE: One Month at War - a Summary (ZonkerH vs ADavidB)
If you look at my AAR with Blackwatch you will see the same kind of attack coming into the Rangoon area in our case it was Moulmein because I am holding Rangoon.
The allies only have a handful of bases that can really handle the heavy bombers and Calcutta is the best supplied so its very likely that the Japanese advance into Burma will meet heavies.
Blackwatch has pushed the number of Zeros in the area up a lot and I had to slow the bombing because of damaged planes we will see what happens after maintance catches up with the damage.
Its interesting to read your AAR since our games are running at about the same month. It sounds like Blackwatchhas beaten me up more since both Repulse and Enterprise are on the bottom and most of my BBs are under repair due to his 4 turn strike on Pearl Harbor.
The allies only have a handful of bases that can really handle the heavy bombers and Calcutta is the best supplied so its very likely that the Japanese advance into Burma will meet heavies.
Blackwatch has pushed the number of Zeros in the area up a lot and I had to slow the bombing because of damaged planes we will see what happens after maintance catches up with the damage.
Its interesting to read your AAR since our games are running at about the same month. It sounds like Blackwatchhas beaten me up more since both Repulse and Enterprise are on the bottom and most of my BBs are under repair due to his 4 turn strike on Pearl Harbor.
RE: One Month at War - a Summary (ZonkerH vs ADavidB)
Dave's B-17s visited Rangoon again (flying from Calcutta, I believe). I have a plan or two for dealing with them in the short term; I'm just not at all sure that it will work.
Hey, you can go ahead and send unescorted Bettys and Nells to bomb India, I don't have any fighters..... [:D]
Dave
- ZonkerHarris
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RE: One Month at War - a Summary (ZonkerH vs ADavidB)
Yes, I'm sure you don't -- but I hope that my plans are a bit more cunning than that.
Dave tried another CV raid today, hoping that I'd left Kwajalein open. Nothing came of it -- most of his carrier planes failed to find the island (it's the green thing in the middle of the big blue thing [:D]) while a few Seagulls snuck under the Zeros and dropped their bombs on seawater. Sadly, his ships will surely run off to the east before they pay any price for their meddling, but that's OK.
Larger issues were being decided at the time. Yenen fell, adding some additional resources and industry to the Empire. And the battle for Singapore is nearly over. My third day of attacks went in at 4-to-1, and reduced the forts to level 4. Manila's days are similarly numbered, and the GHQ staff is busy drawing up plans for future operations.
Dave tried another CV raid today, hoping that I'd left Kwajalein open. Nothing came of it -- most of his carrier planes failed to find the island (it's the green thing in the middle of the big blue thing [:D]) while a few Seagulls snuck under the Zeros and dropped their bombs on seawater. Sadly, his ships will surely run off to the east before they pay any price for their meddling, but that's OK.
Larger issues were being decided at the time. Yenen fell, adding some additional resources and industry to the Empire. And the battle for Singapore is nearly over. My third day of attacks went in at 4-to-1, and reduced the forts to level 4. Manila's days are similarly numbered, and the GHQ staff is busy drawing up plans for future operations.
"All right you primitive screwheads, listen up. See this? This is my boomstick!"
RE: One Month at War - a Summary (ZonkerH vs ADavidB)
Dave tried another CV raid today, hoping that I'd left Kwajalein open. Nothing came of it -- most of his carrier planes failed to find the island (it's the green thing in the middle of the big blue thing ) while a few Seagulls snuck under the Zeros and dropped their bombs on seawater. Sadly, his ships will surely run off to the east before they pay any price for their meddling, but that's OK.
I've placed a big order for Mil-Spec glasses, including prescription sunglasses for my Dauntless pilots. (I've also warned them that unless they learn to fly better, I'm reassigning them to the "tender mercies" of MacArthur...)
But Zonker is right, he shouldn't bother with my stunt pilots out in the Pacific, it's much more important for him to concentrate all of his forces on creating grounds for future war crimes trials in the Philippines and Malaya.
Dave Baranyi
(goes off whistling the Colonel Boogie march...)
- ZonkerHarris
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RE: One Month at War - a Summary (ZonkerH vs ADavidB)
The bridge on the river Kwai will have to wait a while, but Luzon took a big step towards co-prosperity when Manila was liberated by my victorious troops.
Better still, the defenders appear to have surrendered en masse rather than fight on in a hopeless cause. A wise move on their part, and useful to me as I'll now be able to concentrate more force on Bataan sooner than I had thought. The attacks on Singapore continue, and while I only got a 1-1 this turn, the forts were reduced again, which means that this city, too will soon be under new managment.
Further east, Dave's carrier TF seems to have gotten lost -- it's heading northwest from Kwajalein. Numerous IJN officers and sailors have volunteered to provide directions to the wayward yankees (which will have to be delivered by torpedo, since our radio frequencies aren't compatible).
Better still, the defenders appear to have surrendered en masse rather than fight on in a hopeless cause. A wise move on their part, and useful to me as I'll now be able to concentrate more force on Bataan sooner than I had thought. The attacks on Singapore continue, and while I only got a 1-1 this turn, the forts were reduced again, which means that this city, too will soon be under new managment.Further east, Dave's carrier TF seems to have gotten lost -- it's heading northwest from Kwajalein. Numerous IJN officers and sailors have volunteered to provide directions to the wayward yankees (which will have to be delivered by torpedo, since our radio frequencies aren't compatible).
"All right you primitive screwheads, listen up. See this? This is my boomstick!"
RE: One Month at War - a Summary (ZonkerH vs ADavidB)
Further east, Dave's carrier TF seems to have gotten lost -- it's heading northwest from Kwajalein. Numerous IJN officers and sailors have volunteered to provide directions to the wayward yankees (which will have to be delivered by torpedo, since our radio frequencies aren't compatible).
Some Army guy named Tracy asked me to test out some planes for him. It's crowded on board, but they ought to fly, and you do have a lot of targets there in Tokyo, and he only wants 30 seconds...[;)]
Dave Baranyi
- ZonkerHarris
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RE: One Month at War - a Summary (ZonkerH vs ADavidB)
After the last turn, when I'd spotted Dave's CV heading northwest from Kwajalein towards Tokyo, I asked him by email if he'd managed to get B-25s on board. I was more correct than I thought, even though I was thinking about the wrong TF.
What pops up during the recon phase this turn, but another USN CV trying to sneak around Hokkaido. I'm not quite sure what Dave was up to -- was this carrier planning on joining up with the other one for a strike at Tokyo, or perhaps was he hoping to slip a TF unnoticed into the Sea of Japan and cause some trouble there? It doesn't matter much now, thanks to a sharp-eyed recon pilot who called in a few Kates to attack what turned out to be the Saratoga. They were unescorted and flying at long range (and therefore only carrying bombs), but despite all that they managed two hits, one of which scored a "flight deck penetration" and hopefully added on a few more points of system damage. It'll be interesting to see what the Sara does next -- an ignominious retreat eastwards, or a banzai-like suicidal charge towards the foe.
Oh, and I took Singapore and bagged another 81,000 enemy ground troops.
What pops up during the recon phase this turn, but another USN CV trying to sneak around Hokkaido. I'm not quite sure what Dave was up to -- was this carrier planning on joining up with the other one for a strike at Tokyo, or perhaps was he hoping to slip a TF unnoticed into the Sea of Japan and cause some trouble there? It doesn't matter much now, thanks to a sharp-eyed recon pilot who called in a few Kates to attack what turned out to be the Saratoga. They were unescorted and flying at long range (and therefore only carrying bombs), but despite all that they managed two hits, one of which scored a "flight deck penetration" and hopefully added on a few more points of system damage. It'll be interesting to see what the Sara does next -- an ignominious retreat eastwards, or a banzai-like suicidal charge towards the foe.
Oh, and I took Singapore and bagged another 81,000 enemy ground troops.

"All right you primitive screwheads, listen up. See this? This is my boomstick!"
RE: One Month at War - a Summary (ZonkerH vs ADavidB)
It'll be interesting to see what the Sara does next -- an ignominious retreat eastwards, or a banzai-like suicidal charge towards the foe.
I've got the perfect "opportunity" for those prima donna air crews on those carriers - I'm going to transfer them to the Merchant Marine and put them on the Murmansk run on gasoline transports...[:@]
Oh well, I guess now that Zonker knows how ineffectual my capabilities really are, he'll realize that he doesn't have to worry about attacks from the East any more...[8D]
Dave
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- Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2004 1:14 pm
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RE: One Month at War - a Summary (ZonkerH vs ADavidB)
And now a quiet day after all that drama. The USN has vanished to the east again, but with Malaya conquered and resistance collapsing Luzon, I'm rearranging my forces and accellerating some plans. I took Gili Gili and Lae without opposition and recon flights appear to show that Port Moresby has been evacuated.
Decisions, decisions . . .
Decisions, decisions . . .
"All right you primitive screwheads, listen up. See this? This is my boomstick!"
Now six weeks into the War - a Summary (ZonkerH vs ADavidB)
Zonker and I have now been at it in scenario 15, v1.40 for 6 weeks game-time. He has achieved many of his initial objectives and is now setting up for the next stage of the game. Some things are going fairly historically, in other cases Zonker is taking good advantage of his historical knowledge to do better than history.
To a good extent, I've been modeling my play after the historical situation, mainly because I'm not really confident that I understand the true game potential of the Japanese, and also because I'm not confident that my forces can do much more anyway. So while I'm not copying the Allied actions exactly, I am keeping them foremost in mind.
From this, for example, comes my strategy of "raids", similar to what the Allies tried during the first couple of months of the war. I can't face the Japanese head-to-head at this stage, and I don't want throw away my forces. I'm also regrouping as best as possible. The US pulled its naval forces out of the Philippines and so have I - why waste obsolete cruisers and destroyers in hopeless battles when they can be used for raiding (and have been used as such successfully already)?
Likewise, there is no point in leaving air assets where they can't get supplies and are always at a significant numerical disadvantage. Supply points that are used to repair planes could be used instead to supply ground troops, and it takes longer for the Japanese to establish local superiority against ground troops than it does against air forces. Sure, there is a trade-off here - having some fighter CAP does slow down the rate that the Japanese player can reduce supply through bombing, but there is no reasonable way for the Allied player to get effective numbers of aircraft into the Philippines, so what air groups can be used there are overwhelmed almost instantly anyway.
I'm undecided about the overall effectiveness of my strategy to split my troops in Luzon. On one hand this has forced Zonker to split his forces and to commit more forces than were done historically, but he will likely eliminate all my forces in Luzon within a few weeks anyway. The key point in my mind was that I didn't want to get all my forces bottled up in Bataan. Unlike the real situation, in which the Japanese had to fight their way down a peninsula and then face an island fortress, Bataan in the game is simply one hex that isn't well fortified, doesn't have a useable port and has only one way in or out. In retrospect, Manila would probably have been a better location for a "last stand" and I'll likely try to make it my main focus of defense the next time, albeit I'll still try holding actions in Clark Field and elsewhere.
The campaign in Malaya went pretty much as expected. Zonker brought in overwhelming force, and my troops ran out of supply. In addition, there really just aren't enough good troops there to do anything. And Zonker made it impossible for me to maintain any sort of air defense in Singapore. Once again, Buffalos aren't bad planes against Japanese Army planes, but they are hopeless against Zeros. And since Zonker took a predominantly "land only" approach to the conquest of Malaya there were no easily available naval targets against which to use the British bombers, which eliminated any reason to keep them in Singapore.
I've pulled back in Burma to a first line of defense. I'm still of two minds as to what to do with the troops in Burma. On one hand, I could have pulled some back for the defense of India, but on the other hand the troops in Burma are so lousy that it is almost pointless. The reality of the situation is that the Burmese jungle will be the main force stopping the Japanese from attempting a land attack on India.
This, of course, brings up the whole issue of a potential Japanese combined arms campaign against India. The one truism of both WitP and UV before it is that any base that can be reached by sea can have its air bases closed by naval bombardment. This makes the defense of Allied naval bases very difficult unless there are supporting air bases nearby that are protected from naval bombardment. This is where India has a lot of potential for defense - there are many inland bases that could be developed to significant air base levels. The question is - can they be developed before a serious Japanese attack occurs? Timing is everything - in theory the Japanese player could send early attacks to India, including landings, and the forces available in India are fairly weak and spread out. But a premature invasion could leave Japanese forces in locations that are tough to supply. On the other hand, the longer the Japanese player waits to build up a strong well-supported invasion, the longer the Allied player has to develop a defense in depth.
China is another odd situation. To an extent, the "dance" that Zonker and I are doing there is reminiscent of the game of "I-Go". We are maneuvering for position and attempting to avoid having troops cut off more than we are attempting serious campaigns. I am presently trying to figure out where I will want my troops to be in 3 to 6 game-months, rather than the next few game-weeks.
So, all-in-all, while I am not "happy" with the situation in which I find myself six weeks into the War, I don't feel that I've made any major mistakes from which I can't recover. On the other hand, Zonker hasn't made any obvious major mistakes either, which bodes for a long campaign where the outcome is still in totally in doubt.
Dave Baranyi
To a good extent, I've been modeling my play after the historical situation, mainly because I'm not really confident that I understand the true game potential of the Japanese, and also because I'm not confident that my forces can do much more anyway. So while I'm not copying the Allied actions exactly, I am keeping them foremost in mind.
From this, for example, comes my strategy of "raids", similar to what the Allies tried during the first couple of months of the war. I can't face the Japanese head-to-head at this stage, and I don't want throw away my forces. I'm also regrouping as best as possible. The US pulled its naval forces out of the Philippines and so have I - why waste obsolete cruisers and destroyers in hopeless battles when they can be used for raiding (and have been used as such successfully already)?
Likewise, there is no point in leaving air assets where they can't get supplies and are always at a significant numerical disadvantage. Supply points that are used to repair planes could be used instead to supply ground troops, and it takes longer for the Japanese to establish local superiority against ground troops than it does against air forces. Sure, there is a trade-off here - having some fighter CAP does slow down the rate that the Japanese player can reduce supply through bombing, but there is no reasonable way for the Allied player to get effective numbers of aircraft into the Philippines, so what air groups can be used there are overwhelmed almost instantly anyway.
I'm undecided about the overall effectiveness of my strategy to split my troops in Luzon. On one hand this has forced Zonker to split his forces and to commit more forces than were done historically, but he will likely eliminate all my forces in Luzon within a few weeks anyway. The key point in my mind was that I didn't want to get all my forces bottled up in Bataan. Unlike the real situation, in which the Japanese had to fight their way down a peninsula and then face an island fortress, Bataan in the game is simply one hex that isn't well fortified, doesn't have a useable port and has only one way in or out. In retrospect, Manila would probably have been a better location for a "last stand" and I'll likely try to make it my main focus of defense the next time, albeit I'll still try holding actions in Clark Field and elsewhere.
The campaign in Malaya went pretty much as expected. Zonker brought in overwhelming force, and my troops ran out of supply. In addition, there really just aren't enough good troops there to do anything. And Zonker made it impossible for me to maintain any sort of air defense in Singapore. Once again, Buffalos aren't bad planes against Japanese Army planes, but they are hopeless against Zeros. And since Zonker took a predominantly "land only" approach to the conquest of Malaya there were no easily available naval targets against which to use the British bombers, which eliminated any reason to keep them in Singapore.
I've pulled back in Burma to a first line of defense. I'm still of two minds as to what to do with the troops in Burma. On one hand, I could have pulled some back for the defense of India, but on the other hand the troops in Burma are so lousy that it is almost pointless. The reality of the situation is that the Burmese jungle will be the main force stopping the Japanese from attempting a land attack on India.
This, of course, brings up the whole issue of a potential Japanese combined arms campaign against India. The one truism of both WitP and UV before it is that any base that can be reached by sea can have its air bases closed by naval bombardment. This makes the defense of Allied naval bases very difficult unless there are supporting air bases nearby that are protected from naval bombardment. This is where India has a lot of potential for defense - there are many inland bases that could be developed to significant air base levels. The question is - can they be developed before a serious Japanese attack occurs? Timing is everything - in theory the Japanese player could send early attacks to India, including landings, and the forces available in India are fairly weak and spread out. But a premature invasion could leave Japanese forces in locations that are tough to supply. On the other hand, the longer the Japanese player waits to build up a strong well-supported invasion, the longer the Allied player has to develop a defense in depth.
China is another odd situation. To an extent, the "dance" that Zonker and I are doing there is reminiscent of the game of "I-Go". We are maneuvering for position and attempting to avoid having troops cut off more than we are attempting serious campaigns. I am presently trying to figure out where I will want my troops to be in 3 to 6 game-months, rather than the next few game-weeks.
So, all-in-all, while I am not "happy" with the situation in which I find myself six weeks into the War, I don't feel that I've made any major mistakes from which I can't recover. On the other hand, Zonker hasn't made any obvious major mistakes either, which bodes for a long campaign where the outcome is still in totally in doubt.
Dave Baranyi
- ZonkerHarris
- Posts: 83
- Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2004 1:14 pm
- Location: Walden Puddle
RE: Now six weeks into the War - a Summary (ZonkerH vs ADavidB)
Once again I think Dave's done a good job of summing up the game to date, so I'll just add a few thoughts from my point of view. It's January 24, 1942, and so far I'm reasonably happy with the way things have gone. I think I've done a fairly efficient, workmanlike job of capturing the places Japan is supposed to capture in the first couple of months.
I've tried to be guided by the principles of Mass (in essence, bringing enough forces to the fight to win quickly, decisively and inexpensively) and Economy of Force (not using wildly disproportionate amounts of force in one location, so as to be able to accomplish additional missions). Accordingly, I reinforced my attacks on Luzon and Malaya in order to have enough mass to win relatively quickly. I also tried to apply economy of force to those attacks so that I could have enough forces left over to seize Mindanao, Borneo and Sulawesi simultaneously (or at least in rapid succession). This also worked out pretty well, and now I have a firm grip on the SRA and am in good shape to conquer Sumatra and Java.
I've done less well in a few places where the forces I committed were intially inadequate to get the job done. At Cebu Island, Rabaul and most recently at Macassar, I have found that the troops I initially assigned to the task couldn't take the base without reinforcement. That hasn't been a big problem, as I've had other troops near enough to add to the attack, but it has been an annoyance at times and has probably slowed me down somewhat. Similarly, I found that I didn't have enough troops in my initial attack to dislodge Dave's forces at Naga. I was happy enough to have them sitting there, instead of joined up with other forces at Manila or Bataan, so I didn't bother to reinforce that attack until after Manila fell.
As for Dave's plan in Luzon, I don't think it makes too much of a difference, in the end. The Allied forces in the Philippines are doomed, and there's really not much the Allied player can do about it. Bataan was a fairly unique set of circumstances, which a game at this level can't really be expected to simulate perfectly, and as it is I don't think it makes a huge difference where the last stand takes place.
For the most part, Dave has declined battle where he's able, and I don't blame him for it. If anything, I'd have been a bit less daring with my USN carriers. (In one of his recent raids he was very lucky that weather conditions prevented some of my bombers from launching.) He's keeping his forces alive and looking to fight where the odds are more in his favor. It'll be my task to bring him to battle on my terms.
Running the Japanese economy has been an interesting experience so far. At the moment, I'm in the black overall in both fuel and supplies, but slightly in the red in resources and oil. The capture of Java and Sumatra should solve that last problem. I've expanded my shipyards, armaments and vehicle industries a bit, and will probably expand them further once I have a better feel for things. I'm well on the way towards retiring the last of my Claudes, and will probably expand Betty production further so that I can replace my remaining Nells. Other than that, it's mostly a trial and error process as I watch my various pools and try to keep my tinkering to a minimum.
But the time for big choices is coming up. Where do I go? West, south, southeast, northeast? Or do I follow a Mogami-like strategy of setting up my defenses, waiting for an Allied offensive and then trying to stomp on it as hard as I can? As Dave said, the outcome is completely in doubt; the next phase or two of the war will go a long way towards shaping it.
I've tried to be guided by the principles of Mass (in essence, bringing enough forces to the fight to win quickly, decisively and inexpensively) and Economy of Force (not using wildly disproportionate amounts of force in one location, so as to be able to accomplish additional missions). Accordingly, I reinforced my attacks on Luzon and Malaya in order to have enough mass to win relatively quickly. I also tried to apply economy of force to those attacks so that I could have enough forces left over to seize Mindanao, Borneo and Sulawesi simultaneously (or at least in rapid succession). This also worked out pretty well, and now I have a firm grip on the SRA and am in good shape to conquer Sumatra and Java.
I've done less well in a few places where the forces I committed were intially inadequate to get the job done. At Cebu Island, Rabaul and most recently at Macassar, I have found that the troops I initially assigned to the task couldn't take the base without reinforcement. That hasn't been a big problem, as I've had other troops near enough to add to the attack, but it has been an annoyance at times and has probably slowed me down somewhat. Similarly, I found that I didn't have enough troops in my initial attack to dislodge Dave's forces at Naga. I was happy enough to have them sitting there, instead of joined up with other forces at Manila or Bataan, so I didn't bother to reinforce that attack until after Manila fell.
As for Dave's plan in Luzon, I don't think it makes too much of a difference, in the end. The Allied forces in the Philippines are doomed, and there's really not much the Allied player can do about it. Bataan was a fairly unique set of circumstances, which a game at this level can't really be expected to simulate perfectly, and as it is I don't think it makes a huge difference where the last stand takes place.
For the most part, Dave has declined battle where he's able, and I don't blame him for it. If anything, I'd have been a bit less daring with my USN carriers. (In one of his recent raids he was very lucky that weather conditions prevented some of my bombers from launching.) He's keeping his forces alive and looking to fight where the odds are more in his favor. It'll be my task to bring him to battle on my terms.
Running the Japanese economy has been an interesting experience so far. At the moment, I'm in the black overall in both fuel and supplies, but slightly in the red in resources and oil. The capture of Java and Sumatra should solve that last problem. I've expanded my shipyards, armaments and vehicle industries a bit, and will probably expand them further once I have a better feel for things. I'm well on the way towards retiring the last of my Claudes, and will probably expand Betty production further so that I can replace my remaining Nells. Other than that, it's mostly a trial and error process as I watch my various pools and try to keep my tinkering to a minimum.
But the time for big choices is coming up. Where do I go? West, south, southeast, northeast? Or do I follow a Mogami-like strategy of setting up my defenses, waiting for an Allied offensive and then trying to stomp on it as hard as I can? As Dave said, the outcome is completely in doubt; the next phase or two of the war will go a long way towards shaping it.
"All right you primitive screwheads, listen up. See this? This is my boomstick!"
- Tom Hunter
- Posts: 2194
- Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2004 1:57 am
RE: Now six weeks into the War - a Summary (ZonkerH vs ADavidB)
I still hear Mission of Burma in my head every time I read your sig file. Until they add a slam dancing smiley I won't be able to emote properly.
There is a collary to your "where should I go" question which is where will the allies choose to fight both on the defensive now and on the offensive in the future. This is the big problem I have with the Mogami defense the allies can either choose to fight for territory inside the desirable perimeter or start counter attacking in Summer of 42.
ADavidB is in better shape than I am in my concurrent game but it will get interesting to compare the two very soon. We already have wide variance between your efforts in the Philipines and Blackwatches strategy of bypassing them for later. Come over and comment.
There is a collary to your "where should I go" question which is where will the allies choose to fight both on the defensive now and on the offensive in the future. This is the big problem I have with the Mogami defense the allies can either choose to fight for territory inside the desirable perimeter or start counter attacking in Summer of 42.
ADavidB is in better shape than I am in my concurrent game but it will get interesting to compare the two very soon. We already have wide variance between your efforts in the Philipines and Blackwatches strategy of bypassing them for later. Come over and comment.
RE: Now six weeks into the War - a Summary (ZonkerH vs ADavidB)
For the most part, Dave has declined battle where he's able, and I don't blame him for it. If anything, I'd have been a bit less daring with my USN carriers. (In one of his recent raids he was very lucky that weather conditions prevented some of my bombers from launching.) He's keeping his forces alive and looking to fight where the odds are more in his favor. It'll be my task to bring him to battle on my terms.
The whole point of my raids is to remind you that you can't just "ignore" my forces. I don't want you to get "complacent". [;)]
Dave
- ZonkerHarris
- Posts: 83
- Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2004 1:14 pm
- Location: Walden Puddle
RE: Now six weeks into the War - a Summary (ZonkerH vs ADavidB)
Oh, I'm not complacent -- and I've sent more forces to CentPac than Dave may think. I'm well aware that the 2d Marine Division is out there and able to stomp on a weak target. If they stick their necks out too far, though, I want to be ready to stomp on them in return, sinking some of them in their ships, beating up on the rest if they manage to land, and hopefully sinking a few USN CVs in the process.
In the mean time, I'm ashore on Sumatra and have Palembang in my sights. Dave's B-17s returned to Rangoon today, and while they did some damage they took a fair amount in return. Now if only Dave's Flying Fortresses repair as slowly as mine do when I play the Allies.
On Luzon, the noose tightens around Bataan; I also have two armies' worth of ground troops on R&R in Singapore -- they'll soon be ready for fresh operations.
In the mean time, I'm ashore on Sumatra and have Palembang in my sights. Dave's B-17s returned to Rangoon today, and while they did some damage they took a fair amount in return. Now if only Dave's Flying Fortresses repair as slowly as mine do when I play the Allies.
On Luzon, the noose tightens around Bataan; I also have two armies' worth of ground troops on R&R in Singapore -- they'll soon be ready for fresh operations.
"All right you primitive screwheads, listen up. See this? This is my boomstick!"
- ZonkerHarris
- Posts: 83
- Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2004 1:14 pm
- Location: Walden Puddle
RE: Now six weeks into the War - a Summary (ZonkerH vs ADavidB)
Rise and shine, campers, and don't forget your booties 'cause it's cold out there today. It's cold out there every day . . . That's right wood chuck chuckers, it's GROUND HOG DAY! [of 1942] [:D]
Few major developments since my last post on this game -- I've taken the last major base in Borneo, and am marching on Palembang, which my troops should reach within another turn or two. I'm also preparing the final assault on Bataan and beginning to redeploy my Singapore forces, now rested up and ready for more action.
The AVG is flying fighter sweeps over Rangoon, and I've moved a unit of Zeros there to meet them. That's at least restored parity to the loss ratio, but 1:1 losses is not a good situation for Japan. Additional plans are afoot.
Last turn, Dave sent an old USN BB to bombard Paramushiro Jima, his latest pinprick raid. It shelled a few things, but nothing really significant, before slipping away to the east again. I've got better surveillance of the area now, so he won't be able to sneak up on Hokkaido again. I've got a few surprises set up in the southern and eastern ranges of the Empire, and will hope to catch one of these raiding groups, but won't be distracted from my strategic objectives.
And with a little luck, Ground Hog Day will still be just once a year. [;)]
Few major developments since my last post on this game -- I've taken the last major base in Borneo, and am marching on Palembang, which my troops should reach within another turn or two. I'm also preparing the final assault on Bataan and beginning to redeploy my Singapore forces, now rested up and ready for more action.
The AVG is flying fighter sweeps over Rangoon, and I've moved a unit of Zeros there to meet them. That's at least restored parity to the loss ratio, but 1:1 losses is not a good situation for Japan. Additional plans are afoot.
Last turn, Dave sent an old USN BB to bombard Paramushiro Jima, his latest pinprick raid. It shelled a few things, but nothing really significant, before slipping away to the east again. I've got better surveillance of the area now, so he won't be able to sneak up on Hokkaido again. I've got a few surprises set up in the southern and eastern ranges of the Empire, and will hope to catch one of these raiding groups, but won't be distracted from my strategic objectives.
And with a little luck, Ground Hog Day will still be just once a year. [;)]
"All right you primitive screwheads, listen up. See this? This is my boomstick!"


