Petition for Battleships in Starshatter

Starshatter: The Gathering Storm extends the classic space sim by combining fighter and starship combat in a single dynamic campaign game.
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Diabolico
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RE: Request to Pheaggy

Post by Diabolico »

Apart from obviously possibly carring fighters what type of weaponry + speed + defence balance should a battleship have in comparison to destroyer Caps ect.

Battleships (BBs) in SS are ment for Massive firepower and armour/shields - as SS has shown that the bigger (or more) gun wins the match (try a Zolon destroyer versus a Devastator cruiser and you will see what I mean), because in SS it is all about passing the enemy armour, shields and PDB guns (wich SS anti capital to Capital ship missiles failure mostly to do - wich is why you can't compare SS to 21st century Naval combat - as a single harpoon from a ship or even from a fighter can cripple a ship today, contrary to SS).
A BB in SS could take a carrier escorted formation of enemy capital ships as I have demonstrated by building several missions where I've putted a cruiser as the BB. A BB would probably have less damage in the end of the engagement, wich would justify it, so it can keep fighting.

A BB battlegroup would surely be composed of a BB, 1 or 2 cruisers, an escort Carrier, and an assortment of Destroyers and/or frigates, probably as we saw in the later half of WW2 - wich is not an example by itself, as WW2 happened about 4000 years before SS time... there were no shields and the enemy force could mostly be applied only from surface to surface or air to surface (as a BB had destroyer escorts wich made it very hard for subs to even get close to the flagships).
In SS , enemy force can be applied from all possible directions [:'(] and this is worth considering [:-] [:D]!
Yeah, but to continue the ww2 comparison, you need a good CLAA in there to cover the battleship or it will get cut to ribbons by fighter-bombers.

Again, you should compare what is comparable and WW2 naval combat isn't year 6000 space combat...
Compare it rather with B5 mods, Star Wars, Battlecruiser Milennium, Starfleet Command, etc... even in Star Treck (wich is reputed to be "reasonably more science than fiction universe", when compared to Star Wars - wich is rather more fiction than science universe - in both universes they have BBs).
But if you do want to compare, think of the BBs that protected the Allied
vital convoys and the enemy German BBs that raided them, individually and without their escorts.
Offcourse, they were eventually all sank, like the Bismark and Graf Spee, or sabotaged in Port, like the Tirpitz.

But they do have a role on all Space sims (like the ones I've mentioned and other...).

=S=
Burzmali
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RE: Request to Pheaggy

Post by Burzmali »

Diabolico, the crux of the matter is that the distance that fighter-carried anti-ship missiles can be launched is so great, and the time required to launch an entire volley of 8 is so short that nothing short of making the BBs on pair with the Zolon ships in shield strength (which would make them effectively invunerable) or giving them so much PD weaponry that figthers couldn't launch from a CV 100 km away without getting cut to ribbons would solve the problem.
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Diabolico
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RE: Request to Pheaggy

Post by Diabolico »

... or escort BBs with carriers, but then I would be comparing with WW2 naval techniques, wouldn't I?[;)][:D][:'(]
Yeah, BBs with proper point defense is a must and even if Alliance ships have weaker shields than Zolon ships, they could compensate by having more armour to live longer.
Even existig Milo ships don't have enough PDB (look below for instance...)
... as DamoclesX says : "there is no balance, in war, there never was". I add that : "on some occasions there appears to be some balance" but there is always room for exceptions and for grandeur (look at SW's Death Star - or even the USA Military of Today... see what I mean? There is always a Death Star some time, some place in history).
Ditto! [8D]

=S=
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Diabolico
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This one is nice!!!

Post by Diabolico »

This one looks fine.. and plenty of PDB... [:D]
.. hhmm good inspiration for Milo! [&o]
=S=

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crazyeddie22
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RE: This one is nice!!!

Post by crazyeddie22 »

I personally dont think BB would add anything to the game. Fleet combat is already complicated enough without the addition of another behemoth to screw things up. If i could remember what i did with my old missions id post one and youd see what i mean when it comes to manic Ship battles with just carrriers.


Btw you guys should feel lucky with having a mission editor... i remember doing big missions by writing elements and scripting movements in notepad.


cheers.


john "crazy-eddie" edmunds
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DamoclesX
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RE: This one is nice!!!

Post by DamoclesX »

I will see you dead and your counrty in flames before I let milo violate ss with those hack/eyed designs[:D]


No offence ment to the actual model, but I hate those ships with the white hot intensity of a million suns


Have a nice day[:D]
Jason Blaz
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crazyeddie22
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RE: This one is nice!!!

Post by crazyeddie22 »

Damo, do you have any of my old ships runnin around in any format. its a longshot i know but its easier to ask you than getting hold of good ol Slaor who should have most of mine
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DamoclesX
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RE: This one is nice!!!

Post by DamoclesX »

no, I lost -everything- about 4 months ago when my computer went supernova. Not fun lol
Jason Blaz
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crazyeddie22
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RE: This one is nice!!!

Post by crazyeddie22 »

ORIGINAL: DamoclesX

no, I lost -everything- about 4 months ago when my computer went supernova. Not fun lol

damn/. that means slaor or pheagey if i can get old of them...


folks if you wanna see some nice ss ships go too www.slaor.com


full of tasy stuff that probably wont work on the current build as .DAT format didnt exist when these were made
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Diabolico
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RE: This one is nice!!!

Post by Diabolico »

)
I personally dont think BB would add anything to the game. Fleet combat is already complicated enough without the addition of another behemoth to screw things up. If i could remember what i did with my old missions id post one and youd see what i mean when it comes to manic Ship battles with just carrriers.

Fleet combat complicated? LOL... you should try Battlecruiser Milennium... [:D]
I have made fleet missions with 40 Capital ships around and stuff like that! Even played MP with it...
This game sure needs BBs and the other missing classes such as corvettes, courriers, etc.
The fact that you have trouble handling large fleet engagements doesn't mean others do. I haven't made grand Admiral twice for nothing...
Btw you guys should feel lucky with having a mission editor... i remember doing big missions by writing elements and scripting movements in notepad.

Lucky? You must be joking, right? I have paid 42 euros (about 55 USD) for the download of this game - wich is the price of a new game like IL2, Medal of Honour, etc.
For 55 USD you can buy any new PC title (or for 2 or 3 bucks more)! For this kind of money you can buy full commercial versions of new games that are easy and intuitive and where no "code hand editing" is needed.
Editing code for missions and stuff is for late nineties games... not for a full commercial version competing with many other space sims like Battlecruiser Milennium, Star Wars, Dark Space, Nexus, Hegemonia, not to mention a few others.

For this money I expect the same quality and variety than on any "current" new PC title.

Besides, the intuitive interface of SS and it's endless mission editing capabilities allow you to reproduce all known universe space engagements, with or without mods.

That's why all Spectrum of ships should be present.

Those days of "hand" mission editing are over and any commercial success has to offer :

1. Very easy and intuitive interface (like what we have now - everybody can master it easily);

2. Lots of Variety (there are some ships but the full spectrum would be appreciated. Also, there are only 20 starsystems...);

3. Good MP capabilities (they are liable to be working on it too for any new version).

Finnaly Starshatter is the property of Matrix Games and Destroyer Studios and as such, it is a commercial venture. It is no longer shareware, freeware or an adventure between friends (because if it is I want my 42 euros back![:D]).
Matrix Games nows better than loose money on complicated games and has to produce a very good space sim that can "beat the competion".
The only way to achieve this is to keep a simple interface (like the one we have now), good MP capabilities (we have still lots to do, as there are still many problems - and I play MP almost everyday on Euroserver - Thanx Doc Inferno for that![;)]) and variety!
Variety is more ships, more factions, more planets and more objects.
SS in order to become a best seller must offer all that.
SS is a great game but it is within it's reach to become the BEST GAME!
That's what I want for SS!

=S=
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Sky_walker
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RE: Milo, how to

Post by Sky_walker »

ORIGINAL: Diabolico
Remember Sky Walker that you Just made a mod for SS based on STar Wars - old Republic.
Trade federation has Battleships, in case you forgot...[;)]
But we are talking about SS - game, OF COURSE THAT I WANT Battleships IN MODS!!!!
But let milo decide how would it be in game.
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Diabolico
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RE: Milo, how to

Post by Diabolico »

Forget the original SS universe of just 20 starsystems! Think bigger! Don't think just of mods! Think of all the things you can do with the full spectrum of ships, including BB's!

[:D]

=S=
Melkor
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RE: Petition for Battleships in Starshatter

Post by Melkor »

Her's your Battleship [:'(].

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Diabolico
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RE: Petition for Battleships in Starshatter

Post by Diabolico »

Yesss!!![:D]
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DamoclesX
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RE: Petition for Battleships in Starshatter

Post by DamoclesX »

ya thats sweet
Jason Blaz
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Necromancer
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RE: This one is nice!!!

Post by Necromancer »

Ok...I'm done, I can sit out no more... sorry if this seems kinda harsh but I think this discussion has gone on for far to long...especially when there is no discussion to begin with... I mean think about it Diabolico, you summed it up quite nicely when you said:

"Star shatter is the property of Matrix Games and Destroyer Studios and as such, it is a commercial venture."

Yes it is; but it's not your commercial venture, so you shouldn't go around trying to influence it, this is Milo's universe, he imagined it, he implemented it, and Matrix is distributing it for him. His universe doesn't involve Ships as large as battle ships, but being the considerate developer he is, he’s allowed us, the players and modders a way to make our own universes… you don’t like the fact that there’s not any battle ships in Star Shatter, then darn it make some for yourself and post them on your site you tout so much (and don’t forget to put them in .dat format)…

So instead of influencing the original product, which is a wonderful game, influence the modding community… put them in yourself, plenty of other modders do… I think Milo did a damn good job of thinking big when he developed this title by himself, he gave you all the tools you need to make it bigger yourself, so do it. Make the ships yourself, or if you don’t have the capacity or talent to do it (not trying to make a cheap shot there) have someone do it for you. I’ve made mods in the past for star-shatter, none were earth shaking good but I did it because I could… so if you want battle ships make them… but don’t expect Milo to do it for you… he’s got plenty to work on right now as it stands re-writing the engine and all…

I’m sorry, I’m not normally one to rant (um…or for that matter post much), but I do read the forums, and somehow this particular topic just ticked me off, I’ve made suggestions for Star Shatter in the past (animated beams and long, long ago on the original Star Shatter boards for a way to scale missile explosions) and they didn’t get implemented,
But you don’t see me nagging endlessly about it…stop Diabolico you’ve got the tools to do what you want done, use them to do it but stop nagging the developer and publishers to do it for you…


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DamoclesX
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RE: This one is nice!!!

Post by DamoclesX »

On one hand I Should probably try to de-fuse this

however.. on the other hand... I really want to see how diab responds....

*steps back and gets popcorn"
Jason Blaz
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Kuokkanen
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RE: Petition for Battleships in Starshatter

Post by Kuokkanen »

Capital ships could be made to have fighter bays and fighters of their own, like SW's Nebulon B frigates, wich can carry 24 strafighters.
Escort Frigate and its 24 fighters against Escort Carrier, its 72 of fighters AND bombers... Frigate is going to lose. Did you know, Escort Carrier was made up becouse Escort Frigate could not provide enough fighters and precious ISDs are not available throughout the galaxy.
And you can't compare 21st century Naval combat with 5000 years from now.
Yes I can! But what comes to space combat between starships, I'd use submarines as today's counterpart.
why don't vessels from frigate up carry any fighters?
Becouse Starshatter is made according modern navy we have today: fighters are carried by carriers.
and I have mentioned that orbital bombardment earlier.
I was first [:'(]
Still not there [:(]
But they do have a role on all Space sims
No they don't! I have had only glimpse at Warhead, but I'm confident there is no battleship. Neither does Elite or its sequels (5 km long cruiser looks nifty though).
Matrix Games nows better than loose money on complicated games and has to produce a very good space sim that can "beat the competion".
Diabolico, WAKE UP! Matrix Games don't have much anything else to do with this game other than sell it. What comes to other Matrix games, I have understood (from various game/computer magazines) that Matrix don't make/publish games to beat competition. Games released by Matrix are not even meant for all people in the world, unlike some Half-Life 2. Download and try some demos, like Titans of Steel - Warring Suns, War in the Pacific and Starships Unlimited Divided Galaxies and see what I mean.
you don’t like the fact that there’s not any battle ships in Star Shatter, then darn it make some for yourself and post them on your site you tout so much (and don’t forget to put them in .dat format)…
Haha! [:D]
That sums it nicely!
You know what they say, don't you? About how us MechWarriors are the modern knights, how warfare has become civilized now that we have to abide by conventions and rules of war. Don't believe it.

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DamoclesX
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RE: Petition for Battleships in Starshatter

Post by DamoclesX »

Dont start to gang up on diablo.

As for BB's, they will be done, period.
Jason Blaz
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Necromancer
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RE: Petition for Battleships in Starshatter

Post by Necromancer »

I've had my say, I'm not trying to come down on the guy, not in the least bit (true I was a bit fired up when I posted -- for which I'm sorry) so no... I don't want to see him 'ganged up on either'... No hard feelings Diab. just making my opinion known.

Nec.
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