Combined Historical Scenario - Aircraft

[jcjordan]

Some stats for A/C being talked about from some sources but would still like to verify things like man/dur
C54
Max 275 Man 10 Pay 30000 limited upgrade from C47's
Cruise 203 Dur 35 Avail 7/42
Climb 1500 End 900 Rate 5
Alt 22000 Arm 0 Range 3100

P66 Vanguard Chinese
M 340 M 30 200 Arm 2x.50cal, 4x.30cal
C 290 D 28 2/40 Upgrade P40E China
C 2000 E 200 10
A 28000 A 0 950

P43 Lancer Chinese
M 356 M 30 200 Arm 4x.50cal
C 280 D 28 5/41 Upgrade P40E China
C 2500 E 170 10
A 36000 A 0 800

B32 Dominator
M 357 M 3 20000 Arm 2x50Nose, 2x50 Tail, 2x50bottom, 2x50 Top Front Tur
C 250 D 65 9/44 2x50 Top Rear Tur
C 1000 E 1000 20
A 35000 A 1 ? used by the 321BG - 386,387,388,389BS

[jcjordan]

Some research I've done on Indian air units OOB:
Unit, a/c, upgrade,entry,leader

No1 Indian, Lysander, Hurricane, At start, SL KK Majumdar
No2 " , Lysander, Hurricane, At start, SL AB Awan
No3 " , Lysander, Hurr/Spit Recon, At start, SL NAN Bray
No4 " , Lysander, Hurricane, 2/42, SL HU Khan
No6 " , Hurricane, Spit5 recon, 12/42, SL M Singh
No7 " , Vengence, Spit8, 12/42, SL H Chowdhuri
No8 " , Vengence, Spit8, 6/43, SL N Prasad
No9 " , Hurricane, Spit8, 1/44, SL A Khan
No10 " , Hurricane, Spit8, 3/44, SL RFT Doe (18894)

All squadrons are Indian except No10 which has commonwealth pilots. all leaders can be random except No10 which is in database or all Indians can be added.

[jcjordan]

Well the Chinese in the current matrix game is underrepresented in number but overrated in experience to me. I think that the Chinese should have a starting experience of 35-40 not 45 as in the game but increase the rate slightly. As to units it can be done one of 2 ways, if done by squadron alot of Chinese airbase units should be added but if done by group only a small increase in each airbase air support would work if needed at all. My suggestion would be to do by group & limit the max a/c in each group to a lower number than would normally be in a US group to simulate the state of repair the Chinese could maintain, that coupled with the lower exp would probably come closer to what the Chinese were. At the start of the game China was moving from Soviet a/c to US lendlease a/c. This OOB is close to what would have been the CAF in early 42 so there may be other late war units that would appear but not likely as US units would have been supplanting them. I suggest BG= 24, FG=36 or BS=12 & FS=16.

1 BG - 1 & 2BS- both SB3 to B25C
2 BG - 9BS (Veng), 11(SB3), 14(Mart139) all upgrade B25C
3 PG - 7&8FS (I15/16 to P66 to P40), 28&32FS (Hawk75 to P40)
4 PG - 21,22,23,24FS (I16 to P43 to P40)
5 PG - 17,26,29FS (Hawk75 to P40)
11PG - 41,42,43,44FS (I15 to P66 to P40)
12BG - 45,46,47BS (SB3 to B25C)
14BS - Mart B10 to B25C was part of 8 BG but other unit in group was disbanded just as war started due to spare parts shortage.
27FS - I16 to P40
30BS - SB3 to B25C

The 4PG should upgrade to P43 in Mar42 then to P40N late war. The 3PG should upgrade to P66 in Jun42 then P40 late war also, the 11PG should upgrade to P66 sometime after the 4PG.

[Herrbear]

IIRC I believe that the Chinese did not receive any P-43s or P-66s until mid-1942. They were shipped to India first and then put together and flown to China.

[Lemurs!]

Watch adding to many Indian squadrons (or ground units for that matter) since several air units were kept on anti insurgancy duty on the NorthWest frontier through the war.

Also, the allies already have to many squadrons as many squadrons were pulled out or never reformed.

Mike

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: Lemurs!

Watch adding to many Indian squadrons (or ground units for that matter) since several air units were kept on anti insurgancy duty on the NorthWest frontier through the war.

Also, the allies already have to many squadrons as many squadrons were pulled out or never reformed.

Mike

Not sure why withdrawls aren't more universal. Not just expanded ship withdrawl to deal with other navies and merchants but AirUs and LandUs.

[Lemurs!]

We have for the most part talked about additional allied aircraft.
Now, on to Japan!

We need to clone the Grace as a dive bomber, which it historically was, and put it in as the upgrade for the Judy.
The maxbombload should be 1765 or 2000lbs, and the air to sea weapon load should be 1 x 500kg SAP bomb.

Probably the E16 float bomber could be added, again with a 500kg bomb.

I really, really wish that 2by3 or Matrix would have added a simple 3 level modifier box in the editor. Wow, that made no sense. What i would like is a way to show a plus or minus 1 (or maybe 2) to the mnvr rating of all fighters.

example: A6m2 average, good, poor
That would be from sea level to 10,000ft , from 10,000ft to 20,000 ft and 20,000ft on up.

P39 average, average, poor
P51 poor, average, good
P47 average, average, good

But, for whatever reason they did not add this even though it would have been quite easy. sigh.

What this does is make many late war aircraft, from both sides, kind of pointless as they were made to fulfill a single altitude role.

We need to change the designation only of the A6m5c to A6m7. I have been meaning to do this in my mod but never got to it.

The Ki87-I probably should be added as well
1x Adv. Nakajima engine
438mph
41000ft ceiling
3100 climb
2x 30mm cannon
2x 20mm cannon

Mike

[2ndACR]

Now you are talking. Better Japanese a/c.

Start fearing the day I return to the States and can play again full time.[:-]

[TheElf]

Kikka
Jet powered J7W1
Ki-87
Ki-83

Thoughts Lemurs?

[Lemurs!]

I already have the Ki87 and Ki83.

The Kika & J7w1 were jets. Now, i know everyone wants jets but the technology was very limited for that in Japan. In BTR jet engines had their own factories and jets took twice as many engines as a piston plane to represent production difficulties.

We could create a 0 size engine factory for jet engines and create, say, a Kika which takes 4 engines (which i think would be accurate and fair) but would anyone build that uneconomical of an aircraft?

I have thought about adding a push pull Kawasaki design which could have gone into production around may '44. Very fast. Very dangerous. Have to have jedi reflexes.

The game is not set up for rockets fighters like the ki202 so i am against adding them. BTR had special rules for the rocket engines that we can add for WitP.

Mike

[TheElf]

Are you talking about the Ki-94II?

[Lemurs!]

No, the Ki94 never really flew; it was a late war desperate attempt by an army subcontractor to build a fighter plane. I have never felt it would have really ben any good, none of the army designs ever were.

I was talking about Takeo Doi's Ki 64 push-pull fighter that had half a dozen units built and being tested fully armed and armoured at 435mph in December '43. The plane was not put into production simply because it essentially used two engines for one aircraft.
But, there was nothing wrong with it and it could have gone into production in the real war, I am not talking realms of fantasy.

Mike

[Andy Mac]

Do you need to add Tempest or Meteors in as late war allied fighters as upgrades for Hurricanes that dont go the Spitfire route ?

[Lemurs!]

the hurri 2C/2D/IV is our upgrade for the hurri 2 fighters.

Most of the ground attack Commonwealth sqds at the end of the war were flying Thud 2s not Tempests. I do not know how many Tempests were used in this role in the far east, plus we are using plane slots at a rapid pace.

Mike

[TheElf]

I've always felt the Shiden and the Shiden-KAI should be represented as two different A/C. The Shiden was a vast improvement over the Zero and was available much earlier than the Shiden-KAI. I don't think the game does justice to these two A/C as it stands now.

[Hipper]

the hurri 2C/2D/IV is our upgrade for the hurri 2 fighters.

Lemurs

Have you considered the endurance factor for the Hurricane 2C

all the huricane 2's were fitted for drop tanks which were avalable in quantity in late 42
and the were used for long ranged bomber escort then ( well imphal to Mandalay ((4 hexes)) seemed to be their limit with drop tanks )

Now the drop tanks could not be used with bombs so the best option to model things would be to give the 2C extra range but no bombs and the 2D & IV bombs but no extra range !

Just my 2pennies worth great work on the scenario though !

Norman franks Hurricanes over the Arkan has pilot testemony about the long range tanks used in late 42 (after the monsoon is the best date I have) but other sources state that long range drop tanks came into widespread use use in late 42 early 43

Cheers

[Lemurs!]

Hi Hipper,

Yeah, I completely agree with you.

The only thing that has me worried is how are drop tanks modeled in the game? They are listed as seperate devices in the database so i am unsure if they are ever used.

Probably i will do it as you say though.

The only problem with this setup is people will be pissed if i lower P47 range and they will be pissed if i lower its bombload but the plane cannot do both! Same with many aircraft!

Mike

[TheElf]

Why not give the A/C that were droptank capable the longer range to reflect the drop tanks, but lower the effective bomb load so that maxwhen flying at those long ranges they are not able take bombs with them. Will that work?

Just looked at the editor after posting the paragraph above. Doesn't seem to be a way to effect thst idea. Is normal and reduced bomb load a function of endurance and max load?

[Lemurs!]

Elf,

But what about short range bombing trips? Then they should carry full bomb loads.

BTR actually used the drop tanks so that you planned missions and loads were chosen by the computer, with drop tanks replacing bombs on certain hard points as range increased.

What could have been done in a simple fashion in this game is have 3 ranges.

Short range, max bomb load.

Standard range, middle bombload.

long range, bombers get half standard bombload, fighter bombers cannot conduct any kind of ground attack/bombing missions at long range.

But, they didn't.

Mike

[Lemurs!]

Many Allied fanboys complain about the short range of allied heavy bombers; i complain about the bombload they can carry over ridiculus ranges.

B17's and B24's both replaced bombs with fuel tanks for long range missions. Some of the early war patrol missions flown by B17's were flown with just 2 or 4 500lb bombs.

Mike