Aussie Affair, Beta's Twilight

[Andy Mac]

I dont think there is a fundamnetal problem with the game you have concentrated almost the whole RAF heavy bomber force and what 3 USAAF Medium bomber gps to close one base all escorted by 2 Fighter Gps equipped with an old fighter

The problem is less about the results acheived which I think are right on the money and more about the ahistorical concnetration of force in India in 42 and the fact that as a player Raverdave has retained Tomahawks to provide ranged escorts.

I genuinely dont see this as a bug but as a player issue and given the other a historical things that happen in a game like this is an Allied player using hindsight to concnetrate his bombing force for daylight raids wrong ?

I dont think so.

And wothout heavy losses from fighter cover its a milk run (apart from the weather) for those bomber crews.

If he is flying in a thunderstorm he will take ops losses but by the looks of things nothing else is going to stop him. How many ops losses dd he take on the rangoon raid ?

I genuinely dont have a problem with this one.

[Andy Mac]

I hasten to add at least one IJ player has done the same thing to me at PM using betties or Nells its not an easy thing to overcome.

Perhaps the easiest thing is to get a fragment of another unit of the same type.

i.e. a one or two plane subunit transfer them to the base and withdraw the depleted gp into the subunit then upgrade the subunits parent and all fragments automatically recombine with the newly upgraded parent.

Its cumbersome but appears the least risky way of sorting your issue Luskan...

Andy

[mogami]

Hi,
You can disband groups
you can load airgroups onto ships even when AC are damaged.

[Raverdave]

Well in an effort to keep the game running I have asked if Luskan is happy with the above bombing hights, and hope to have a reply from him later tonight.
That is the only reson that I have come up with the minimum bomb hights....to keep the game running.
However with the exception of the issue of my planes bombing a target that has rain/thunderstorms, I don't really think that there is a problem with the damage done to the airfield.
Now if we look back on the opening movesof this game, I lost well in excess of 300+ aircraft on Dec 7th, half of those were lost in the PI....as Luskan wrote in the opening of this AAR......."My bombers hit a few malayan bases for little to no gain, and hit the airfield at singapore - again for little or no gain, although my zeros did enjoy shooting down buffaloes.
At least my raids on Clark were as devastating as the raid at pearl - which netted me 146 of Raver's aircraft destroyed on the ground alone."
(Allied) airpower when massed is like Thor's hammer....it is going to smash anything it hits..............It has happened to me and it has happened to Luskan. I think what has really got Luskan so frustrated is the fact that my bombers flew while his fighters sat on the ground because of the thunderstorm, more than the actual damage done.

[Andy Mac]

I guess fighters not flying could happen for many reasons airfield U/S from previous raids, Lack of supply, radar damaged on previous raid, poor leaders in IJA sqns, Fighter pilots with low morale not taking off as the base is rained off, emporers birthday party the night before and all pilots still drunk etc....

Japanese pilot ...."no point in putting cap up in this weather allies would never bomb in this rain"

Allied 10th Air Force "....we have a clear day in Calcutta and I dont care how many bombers crash into each other over Rangoon I want that airfield pulverised whatever the cost..."

Could happen

[mogami]

HI, The thunderstorms are not in every hex. Or are you reporting a bug?
If there is a thunderstorm in the bombers airfield there will be a cloud icon and no offensive missions will take off.
If there is a thunderstorm in the target hex there will be a cloud icon and no offensive missions will enter the hex.
If there are no cloud icons then there are no thunderstorms.


The weather status shown on the map is only a forecast of the worse weather possible. Most hexes will always be considered clear.

If you want to recreate the actual weather accuratly you should have both sides stand down all aircraft from May 15 to Oct 15 ()monsoon) from Bangkok to Dacca.

[Andy Mac]

I may have this wrong but I thought depending on morale leader etc offensive missions could fly into a thunderstorm but the chance of ops losses was much greater.

Not sure if this is realsitic but I thought it was how it was modelled...

Andy

[mogami]

Hi, I say again
In WITP offensive missions do not fly into or out of bad weather.
Bad weather is shown by placing a icon in the hex with the weather.
No icon no bad weather
If they are flying into or out of hexes with icons then it is a bug

[Luskan]

Hrm - some good ideas here. I don't want to abandon this game eithe r- but I don't want to restrict Raver in his options - he must be free to use his forces as he sees fit and as he thinks are most effective.

I have misunderstood thewhole weather forecast thing. When it says thunderstorms, my understanding was that it was a "region" of the map, not individual hexes. Stopping replacements is a possibility, but then I'd never be able to evac the 500 stranded pilots from Rangoon. I can't load destroyed aircraft onto a ship, so problem there too.

However, loading planes onto a ship to evac is a MUCH better solution to the problem as I see it. It gets my planes out, and means that Raver doesn't have to run with house rules (I have no problem with the damage done to the airfield, just the number of planes hammered on the ground - when I SWORE the weather would keep them from flying - just as Andy Mac said).

As for op losses in bad weather - there haven't been many. Maybe 1 or 2 for the allies per turn, more likely damaged by flak and cap as well.

[mogami]

Hi, The listed weather is only a forecast. And it is only a forecast of the worse weather conditions possible for the following turn for hexes inside the zone. It is not existing weather in every hex in the zone. If the bad weather does occur inside a particular hex it will be shown by placing a cloud icon on the hex. Weather conditions can change per phase.
It might be bad in the AM but clear in the PM.
To prevent offensive air missions the weather has to be bad in either the bombers airfield or the target.
Recon/patrol/CAP flies in all weather.

[WhoCares]

Lesson learned: never cancel all defensive missions, whatever the conditions might be.

I think the AI had taught me that lesson before. Now I always keep a CAP in the air (at least in contested areas), and also important LR-CAPS, e.g. over landing parties. Maybe that's the reason why ~50% of my Zeros went down to Ops losses... [:(]
(now, it is disputable, whether it is better to let the pilots die in a crash landing than having your airgroups trashed on an undefended airfield - considering that experienced pilots are one of your most valuable assets in-game; psychological it is definatly better to see them in the air during an attack [:)])

[Capt. Harlock]

Stopping replacements is a possibility, but then I'd never be able to evac the 500 stranded pilots from Rangoon. I can't load destroyed aircraft onto a ship, so problem there too.

But from what Mogami says, you *can* load damaged aircraft. Perhaps you and Raver could declare that the B-25's cannot fly anti-ship missions for a week or so -- the quartermaster forgot to ship the proper ordnance. This should allow you to evacuate the air units with acceptable losses.

[Gen.Hoepner]

For what i've experienced so far i believe that storms prevent you from flying an air mission only if they are settled on your base, not on the destination Hex. When a storm rises up on the hex you're bombing this will heavily increase the chances of not locating the target and the damage suffered by the bombed hex is often smaller.

[Raverdave]

So Luskan's reply explains it............I have not been seeing ANY storms over either my airfield or Rangoon when the attacks went in, yet Luskan thought that he was. I can confirm that when the cloud Icon is over any of my airfields, nothing flys.

On with the war!

[2ndACR]

I have repeatedly seen raids fly into t-storms in my games. Both my raids and raids from my opponents. T-storms will cancel raids from your base, but they do not seem to deter raids going into them.

It is quite irritating when the T-storm prevents your CAP from flying, yet his a/c come in and plaster you. I guess I read the rules wrong. I thought it was supposed to work that way.

[mogami]

Hi, Weather does not stop CAP or recon or Patrol. It only stops offensive missions.
Bombing, Naval Strikes and Sweeps.

If you have a save where an offensive mission leaves or enters a hex with a cloud icon in it send it to MNeer1@woh.rr.com

[PzB74]

Been having a lot of this against Wobbly - it's a lottery - and the guy with the biggest hammer usually wins. As the Allies got a lot of long range bombers, this isn't really as exciting as it sounds. I've been hammered in early 42 several times already. One of the reasons for invading India and subduing the Allies here was that I knew that air power in this region would wreck havoc on everything I got within range of their bases as soon as enough heavies were in place.

The Jap player will either have to send in a lot of crack Zero Daitais to Rangoon to stop this menace, and even this would be a most uncertain gamble. The fact is that these Zeros are desperately needed elsewhere, so the only option as far as I'm concerned is to withdraw most of the the assets as soon as losses becomes to excessive!

It's certainly a really bad feeling to see your best squadrons get hammered in the air and on the ground for nothing.
You know the saying Luskan...no mercy for the bad if he wants it - guess that's the price we got to pay for playing the Evil Empire! [;)]

[Luskan]

All true. A turn later and not a single plane at rangoon has been repaired. Salvation won't come for them as it'll take ages to get any empty aks up there to offload them.

This turn I'm irritated that for the second time in 3 turns, a transport tf of Raver's that is unloading at Lunga detects my incoming DD raid by ESP and dodges out the way again (get the message tf1055 reacting to enemy surface combat tf) - when no allied plane, coastal watcher etc has EVER spotted that tf. How is that supposed to happen?

Even worse - I know how to get around it! Set my dds to bombard and the enemy tfs won't dodge (although my tfs won't engage as long).

[Luskan]

As for this turns results, still a bit unhappy. This time about a different feeling of imbalance (just a feeling).

262 allied heavies over rabaul at 33000 with a handful of the worst zero pilots in history to oppose still do minor damage? Too early to judge - if they were at 10000 and got this result I'd be annoyed at how underpowered they are. Rabaul probably isn't that hard to hit from 33000 feet compared to some targets.

As for the result off Lunga - I've had 2 CV divisions working with my subs since week 3 of this game to sucker Raver's ASW assets after one of my subs and away from Raver's aircover, and then blowing them to hell. I figured it would only work once - but just one of those vulnerable little ASW tfs with ships in it that haven't had AA upgrades (drool).

I know this particular tf was a fast transport tf - and wasn't really after the sub I left as bait at Lunga, but since they sank the sub while offloading troops I'm happy to call it a fair trade.

All that wasted time, finally a result. Off Johnson island for SO LONG with no result - 2 to 4 CVs on station basically all the time just hoping that I'd cull an ASW TF. I even rolled extra CVs into my two cv divisions to do it this time. (had to break up my 5 divisions while I've got the first series of my big ship upgrades going). I lost 13 planes all up, but only 9 pilots. 2 of the 9 pilots were excellent pilots. The other 7 were all post pearl harbour replacements who were never up to scratch - whereas most of the other post pearl pilots have been thoroughly trained for the last 9 months of gaming to be at least competent (making their squadron average exp much higher). Still pilots in the navy replacement pool at 55 exp. I'll be doing some training soon (again). Then there will be the big CV battle, which I doubt my CV forces can survive - although that isn't the primary aim. The main aim is to maul Raver badly enough to hinder invasions long enough that I can win the game on points (gonna be close if I win the CV battle!).

Probably not a bad time to take Lunga - Raver won't be using fast transport any more until he ships in some more fast transport capable ships. Of course there are plenty in Oz, but they've got their hands ful with my subs.

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 08/08/42

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ASW attack near Lunga at 67,97

Japanese Ships
SS I-159, hits 3, on fire, heavy damage, sinks.

Allied Ships
DMS Elliot
DMS Perry
DMS Boggs
DMS Hopkins
DMS Hovey
APD Sands
APD Humphreys
APD Stringham
APD McKean
APD Little
APD Gregory
APD Colhoun
APD Manley
DD Flusser

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sub attack at 45,43

Japanese Ships
AK Yamagiri Maru
PC Shonon Maru #10
MSW Yoshino Maru

Allied Ships
SS Sailfish

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Rabaul , at 61,88

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 3

Allied aircraft
B-17E Fortress x 262

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 2 destroyed
G4M1 Betty: 10 destroyed, 20 damaged
E13A1 Jake: 1 destroyed
H8K Emily: 2 destroyed, 1 damaged


Japanese ground losses:
273 casualties reported
Guns lost 7

Airbase hits 4
Airbase supply hits 2
Runway hits 26


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 67,101 - the big all out strike.

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 76
D3A Val x 60
B5N Kate x 42

Japanese aircraft losses
D3A Val: 3 destroyed, 11 damaged
B5N Kate: 2 destroyed, 21 damaged

Allied Ships
DD Case, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
APD Gregory, Bomb hits 6, on fire, heavy damage
DD Cushing, Torpedo hits 1, on fire
DD Bagley
DMS Hopkins, Torpedo hits 1, on fire
APD Manley
DD Ralph Talbot, Bomb hits 1
DMS Elliot
DMS Perry
DD Mugford, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
DD Helm
DD Hammann
APD Sands, Bomb hits 5, on fire, heavy damage
APD McKean, Bomb hits 2, on fire
APD Colhoun, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 67,101

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 31
D3A Val x 40
B5N Kate x 20

Japanese aircraft losses
D3A Val: 3 destroyed, 10 damaged
B5N Kate: 8 destroyed, 15 damaged

Allied Ships
DD Flusser, Bomb hits 2, on fire
APD Manley, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
APD Humphreys, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
DD Cushing, Bomb hits 1, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
DMS Boggs, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
APD McKean, Bomb hits 6, on fire, heavy damage
DD Ralph Talbot, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
DD Hammann
DD Preston
DMS Hopkins, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 67,101

Japanese aircraft
B5N Kate x 15

Japanese aircraft losses
B5N Kate: 3 destroyed, 4 damaged

Allied Ships
DMS Hovey
DD Mugford, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
DD Ralph Talbot, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 67,101

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 21
D3A Val x 44
B5N Kate x 36

Japanese aircraft losses
D3A Val: 2 damaged
B5N Kate: 7 damaged

Allied Ships
DD Sims, Bomb hits 1, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
DD Bagley, Bomb hits 1, on fire
APD Manley, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
DD Cushing, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
DMS Hovey, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
DD Helm, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
DD Hammann
DD Blue, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
DD Preston
DD Case, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 67,101

Japanese aircraft
D3A Val x 19
B5N Kate x 13

Japanese aircraft losses
B5N Kate: 2 damaged

Allied Ships
APD Little
DMS Perry
APD Sands, Bomb hits 4, on fire, heavy damage
APD Stringham, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
DD Cushing, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
APD Humphreys, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage




Leaves me a little uncovered since I've got 1 division in the bay of Bengal (alone against the british is fine - but Raver's already proven he's willing to move his US fleet CVs into the Bay before . . .) and the 2nd CV division is . . . well it is ready and on station for where I expect Raver's reaction to arrive. Lots of LBA on hand - because Raver will use the allied death star approach no doubt. Good news is, I'm 99% sure I know where Raver's CVs are - mainly because I KNOW what he expects me to do with regards to a certain theatre (he's seen me do it succesfully time and time again in previous games) and I know for dead certainty he's waiting for it.

[Luskan]

Another very quiet turn. The first two aircraft came online at Rangoon this turn. yay.

I have always maintained that blowing up supplies shouldn't be as easy as it is at a fort. Now the chronic lack of supply at rangoon hampers the transferring of planes out - still ahve to rush some AK's in before Raver's new wave of bombers hits.

Don't think I'm dumb enough to hang around at Truk for Raver's b17 armada to hunt me down.