At this point in the game Noumea is no option for me. As Nikodemus just suggested, China is a source of VPs like any other theater as well.
I have two choices: sit back and see whether I can win 3:1 in '44 or or try to get my points where I see a realistic chance to do so. It is not like I have won because I get those points in China. But I force my enemy to come out and play on my terms to avoid my early victory while he is not yet prepared to do so.
Why are there no Chinese bases further than Sining?
Moderators: Joel Billings, wdolson, Don Bowen, mogami
RE: Mogami's last attempt.
I have two choices: sit back and see whether I can win 3:1 in '44 or or try to get my points where I see a realistic chance to do so. It is not like I have won because I get those points in China. But I force my enemy to come out and play on my terms to avoid my early victory while he is not yet prepared to do so.
The point Mogami is making is that going for China to win is a loophole in the game, it is not realistic as China could have thrown millions more troops into the fray had it been a real issue. This is the same reason I popped up the poll about Japan players keeping required levels of troops in these cities.
If you are playing like your goal is to wipe China & India off the map to get the VP for a Jan 1, 43 auto victory, you are exploiting the weakness in the game (not real history).
Obviously it's your game to play with as you see fit, just don't expect China and India to be able to fight back.
RE: Mogami's last attempt.
I can't see why anyone thinks it is illigitimate to try to win in China. Their are no "edge" effects in China. The entire theater is on map, I really can't see what you are talking about.
Most people who win in China are not doing anything gamey at all. They just attack in a straightforward and logical way and unless the allied player has studied the combat system and the Chinese theater in detail he will be crushed.
In my game vs WITP_Dude I don't recall either of us doing anything even remotely gamey. I have not tranfered in any large force from other theaters. I pretty much just plowed ahead against a very experienced player and now after close to 5 months the end is in sight for the Chinese.
But the ground combat system is very difficult in general to understand and a very good understanding is required in order to defend China. Just in the last week I have tested and discovered rules governing unit movement around ZOC's which are not in the manual and which I have never seen discussed on the boards. (at least I think I now know these rules--My real concern is will they change with the next patch) But how many players want to spend time studying the system to find its hidden secrets.
There are problems with the ground combat system which should not be dismissed by simply saying that the theaters in which they occur are just not relavant.
Most people who win in China are not doing anything gamey at all. They just attack in a straightforward and logical way and unless the allied player has studied the combat system and the Chinese theater in detail he will be crushed.
In my game vs WITP_Dude I don't recall either of us doing anything even remotely gamey. I have not tranfered in any large force from other theaters. I pretty much just plowed ahead against a very experienced player and now after close to 5 months the end is in sight for the Chinese.
But the ground combat system is very difficult in general to understand and a very good understanding is required in order to defend China. Just in the last week I have tested and discovered rules governing unit movement around ZOC's which are not in the manual and which I have never seen discussed on the boards. (at least I think I now know these rules--My real concern is will they change with the next patch) But how many players want to spend time studying the system to find its hidden secrets.
There are problems with the ground combat system which should not be dismissed by simply saying that the theaters in which they occur are just not relavant.
RE: Mogami's last attempt.
I dont even see it as that. The reality of China wasn't a matter of military battles. In most any straight up fights, unless the Chinese could bring in massive numbers *and* operate them in a cohesive manner, the Japanese army held the edge in terms of training and in equipment and would win the day. The Chengsha example to me only proves a reality i've already seen in the game....a well led China that masses troops and coordinates it's actions can sting the Japanese army and inflict a defeat on it. I've already suffered a couple.
The Chinese army was largely a peasant army, ill equpped, ill trained and often badly led in the field. But China as a country is vast and most Chinese armies of the time lived off the land becuase they were largely men with uniforms and small arms. Few major arty peices, sophisticated weaponry much less vehicles or tanks. However given the vastness of the Chinese landscape, the Japanese army could not bring the Chinese army to decisive battle unless the latter chose too. Often, even if caught, a Chinese army could litterally "melt away" into the landscape as disgruntled/demoralized etc etc///soldiers simply thew away uniforms and weapons and went back to their villages.
That was the major source of the "stalemate" Japan couldn't win a decisive victory or bring the Chinese government to the negotiating table, thus the Japanese army had to stay in China and stay mobilized.
As to whether nor not the Chinese could have brought in "Millions more men" i cant say with certainy though i doubt such a thing could have been done quickly nor without training and weapons would this "army" have been of much use. (hence the importance of supply sources such as the Burma road)
There was a light at the end of the tunnel however....some Chinese divisions were reorganzied along American lines, retrained and most importantly, re-equipped. These "new" Chinese formations, when properly supplied and employing proper tactics eventually proved more than a match for even veteran Japanese formations that were used to surrounding, outflanking and demoralizing/breaking up their Chinese opponents. What they found instead to their heavy cost were hard fighting Chinese units that would not panic if flanked/sourrounded but would instead form a box for maximum firepower and make Japanese probes and assaults pay in blood.
These Chinese learned that they could meet the Japanese enemy on the field and beat them without having to posses overwhelming numbers.
The game falls short in portraying the logistical reality of China because, like Burma, China has unique attributes and the game must use a general system that covers the entire war. Thus Chinese "cities" and "supply routes" hold even greater importance because the game treats them as traditional based supply centers and hubs and Japanese players can exploit this. There is no provision for Chinese armies to be diserpsed and then rebuilt. (A suggestion i had a long time ago was that there be a "regeneration routine" added for China that has lost Chinese units be reformed and rebuilt in a rear area.....largely squads and maybe a few heavy weapons with middling exp)
Similar in concept to the Hanoi VM divisions that get formed should China "Invade" Indo-China)
I liked this idea better than supply bonuses and increases because such things might result in an overpowered China that actually can attempt to drive Japan from the mainland. Sounds implausible but as i'm finding out the hard way....China has ALOT more units than i had at first contemplated when i launched on my current strategy.
[EDIT]
My dasterdly, sneaky and all around poop headed Austrialo-Chinese-Kangeroo opponent has reminded me that the provision for Chinese rebuilding was instituted but at 30% of TOE 30 days after destruction.
damn i'm good....even if i dont remember what i did..... [:'(]
The Chinese army was largely a peasant army, ill equpped, ill trained and often badly led in the field. But China as a country is vast and most Chinese armies of the time lived off the land becuase they were largely men with uniforms and small arms. Few major arty peices, sophisticated weaponry much less vehicles or tanks. However given the vastness of the Chinese landscape, the Japanese army could not bring the Chinese army to decisive battle unless the latter chose too. Often, even if caught, a Chinese army could litterally "melt away" into the landscape as disgruntled/demoralized etc etc///soldiers simply thew away uniforms and weapons and went back to their villages.
That was the major source of the "stalemate" Japan couldn't win a decisive victory or bring the Chinese government to the negotiating table, thus the Japanese army had to stay in China and stay mobilized.
As to whether nor not the Chinese could have brought in "Millions more men" i cant say with certainy though i doubt such a thing could have been done quickly nor without training and weapons would this "army" have been of much use. (hence the importance of supply sources such as the Burma road)
There was a light at the end of the tunnel however....some Chinese divisions were reorganzied along American lines, retrained and most importantly, re-equipped. These "new" Chinese formations, when properly supplied and employing proper tactics eventually proved more than a match for even veteran Japanese formations that were used to surrounding, outflanking and demoralizing/breaking up their Chinese opponents. What they found instead to their heavy cost were hard fighting Chinese units that would not panic if flanked/sourrounded but would instead form a box for maximum firepower and make Japanese probes and assaults pay in blood.
These Chinese learned that they could meet the Japanese enemy on the field and beat them without having to posses overwhelming numbers.
The game falls short in portraying the logistical reality of China because, like Burma, China has unique attributes and the game must use a general system that covers the entire war. Thus Chinese "cities" and "supply routes" hold even greater importance because the game treats them as traditional based supply centers and hubs and Japanese players can exploit this. There is no provision for Chinese armies to be diserpsed and then rebuilt. (A suggestion i had a long time ago was that there be a "regeneration routine" added for China that has lost Chinese units be reformed and rebuilt in a rear area.....largely squads and maybe a few heavy weapons with middling exp)
Similar in concept to the Hanoi VM divisions that get formed should China "Invade" Indo-China)
I liked this idea better than supply bonuses and increases because such things might result in an overpowered China that actually can attempt to drive Japan from the mainland. Sounds implausible but as i'm finding out the hard way....China has ALOT more units than i had at first contemplated when i launched on my current strategy.
[EDIT]
My dasterdly, sneaky and all around poop headed Austrialo-Chinese-Kangeroo opponent has reminded me that the provision for Chinese rebuilding was instituted but at 30% of TOE 30 days after destruction.
damn i'm good....even if i dont remember what i did..... [:'(]
RE: Mogami's last attempt.
I didn't start the game with the intention to wipe out China or India. That would be like start a game of chess and planning to end it with a base line mate.
I started and put my efforts according what I saw fit. And I did it according to the rules, fulfilling garrison requirements and paying PPs for the few units I took from Kwangtung Army. See, I am abroaching October '42 - others sacked China, Russia, India and Hawaii in about the same time [&o]
I started and put my efforts according what I saw fit. And I did it according to the rules, fulfilling garrison requirements and paying PPs for the few units I took from Kwangtung Army. See, I am abroaching October '42 - others sacked China, Russia, India and Hawaii in about the same time [&o]
RE: Mogami's last attempt.
I have a question of all Japanese players. It seems most are just playing the game for an auto victory. So what happens if you do no get the auto victory? I here everyone talk about getting the auto victory. I rarely here people talk about the struggle it was for the Japanese to last as long as they did. That is why people should play as the Japanese not to get a magical point number. As Mogami said it is War in The Pacific. If people are going to play with a auto victory in mind, why not have a 12/7/41 to 1/1/43 game where this could happen. I just have a feeling that a lot of players who play for the auto victory are going to be so let down if they do not get a auto victory that they will not want to play past 1/1/43.
"Ours was the first revolution in the history of mankind that truly reversed the course of government, and with three little words: 'We the people.' 'We the people' tell the government what to do, it doesn't tell us." -Ronald Reagan
RE: Mogami's last attempt.
Personally I dont play for the auto victory because i tend to prefer cautious play that preserves my forces. The only way to get the auto-victory....if at all (and i'm not sure it's possible without generous help from the Allied player) is to go pell mell sort like with WitP_Dude's blitz campaign but besides being incredibly entertaining it also showed the trap of such a strategy in that those spectacular gains cost alot of points making the score much more even.
I'm not even sure why i bothered launching an offensive in China now that i think of it...other than to have something to do I guess. Given how hard i'm having to work for it now i'm kind of regretting it. [:'(]
I'm not even sure why i bothered launching an offensive in China now that i think of it...other than to have something to do I guess. Given how hard i'm having to work for it now i'm kind of regretting it. [:'(]
RE: Mogami's last attempt.
How many folks are talking about the 1.4 version of the scenario where China has been bulked out to not be quite a pushover? The joys of scenario design, you can't tune them until people play them and you see whats wrong.
RE: Mogami's last attempt.
me ME ME ME ME ME ME
Yennen was a tough fight.
However i did win in the end. Should be hearing from Drongo any day now ready to negotiate peace in China.
any day now......
you'll see.....
Yennen was a tough fight.
However i did win in the end. Should be hearing from Drongo any day now ready to negotiate peace in China.
any day now......
you'll see.....
RE: Mogami's last attempt.
I would play a game starting in 7/1/42, 1/1/43 or 1/1/44 if I would just concentrate on the defensive war.
And for someone who is playing such a game the very first time, it it far more enjoying and satisfying to see his troops advance on all fronts than seeing his attacks of 100+ bombers being shot down for a single 250kg bomb bouncing of a BB [8|]
Edit:
My game started in August, so 1.4 came a little late. I might start a new one with 1.5 and once this one has reach '43 (not so easy to throw away five month' work without a decisive victory reached [;)])
And for someone who is playing such a game the very first time, it it far more enjoying and satisfying to see his troops advance on all fronts than seeing his attacks of 100+ bombers being shot down for a single 250kg bomb bouncing of a BB [8|]
Edit:
My game started in August, so 1.4 came a little late. I might start a new one with 1.5 and once this one has reach '43 (not so easy to throw away five month' work without a decisive victory reached [;)])
RE: Mogami's last attempt.
I was having fun....until Drongo did all that unit splitting thingy making all those units all over the place. Sure felt like a quagmire though [:D]
RE: Mogami's last attempt.
ORIGINAL: AmiralLaurent
I will also raise all forts on the frontline to 9 (on both sides) as the front hasn't changed for a while.
Good point, why hasn't this been done already?
________________________________________
I feal so dirty when I sink convoys with 4E bombers, makes porn feal wholsome. - Brady, Founding Member of the Japanese Fanboy Club
RE: Mogami's last attempt.
The problem is a poor ground combat model and not play balance. If you keep simply upgrading the Chinese defences it will not produce the historical stalemate you will just start getting games where the Chinese route Japan in early 43.
The real problem is that victories are without cost in this game system. Players are fooled into thinking the attacker is losing lots of troops by the combat display which reports lots of casualties. In fact these are almost all disruptions and the attacker losses almost nothing as long as he keeps wining.
Always I am told that China should delay and wear down Japan and wait for his supply line to lengthen. Yet In my game vs. WITP_Dude I have attacked relentlessly from the start and my divisions are still essentially at full strength. 14 divisions sit in Chungking at 100% supply and elsewhere I am awash in supplies.
Historically Japan had the capability to attack in China. The question was how willing were they to pay the cost in lives and supplies. In this game their is no cost.
The real problem is that victories are without cost in this game system. Players are fooled into thinking the attacker is losing lots of troops by the combat display which reports lots of casualties. In fact these are almost all disruptions and the attacker losses almost nothing as long as he keeps wining.
Always I am told that China should delay and wear down Japan and wait for his supply line to lengthen. Yet In my game vs. WITP_Dude I have attacked relentlessly from the start and my divisions are still essentially at full strength. 14 divisions sit in Chungking at 100% supply and elsewhere I am awash in supplies.
Historically Japan had the capability to attack in China. The question was how willing were they to pay the cost in lives and supplies. In this game their is no cost.
RE: Mogami's last attempt.
The combat system is designed for battles in the Pacific. They aren't going to redo the combat system from the ground up so other changes would be helpful. Level nine forts will make it difficult for either side to advance. Even a China that is able to rest and recoup for several months behind their level nine forts will have difficulties advancing against a prepared Japanese defense.
Also remember the point Mogami made that the Japanese had their hands full with securing railroads and cities and with gathering enough rice to feed the troops. The ability to gather large amounts of manpower for offensives was limited. This isn't reflected that well with the current garrision requirement. You have 14 divisions at Chungking with probably only a few in the rear areas.
The supply situation is also FUBAR. I was reading a little about "The Hump" and the first flights didn't even begin until July 1942 or thereabouts. In WiTP world, the Hump starts in December 1941 and it has to be done on a MASSIVE scale to have any effect. In reality, the air lift didn't carry much in the way of supplies until the middle of 1943.
Also remember the point Mogami made that the Japanese had their hands full with securing railroads and cities and with gathering enough rice to feed the troops. The ability to gather large amounts of manpower for offensives was limited. This isn't reflected that well with the current garrision requirement. You have 14 divisions at Chungking with probably only a few in the rear areas.
The supply situation is also FUBAR. I was reading a little about "The Hump" and the first flights didn't even begin until July 1942 or thereabouts. In WiTP world, the Hump starts in December 1941 and it has to be done on a MASSIVE scale to have any effect. In reality, the air lift didn't carry much in the way of supplies until the middle of 1943.
________________________________________
I feal so dirty when I sink convoys with 4E bombers, makes porn feal wholsome. - Brady, Founding Member of the Japanese Fanboy Club
RE: Mogami's last attempt.
Does the ground combat system even work for islands??? You attack an island and the combat reports show that your division takes 3 or 4 thousand casualties over a period of several days of attacks. It sounds realistic but have you actually had any of your troops killed. The answer is probably no. These are mostly disruptions as when you lose several hundred troops landing at unoccupied beaches. The reality is that you have destoryed the enemy force and taken next to zero losses in return.
VP's in the game are based on troops actually killed. Look at the loss rates that these reflect. Even discounting the large surrenders of allied troops, Japan takes insignificant losses regardless of the tempo of their operations. The only way they lose significant forces is if they miscalculate and allow one ot their units to be thrown back in retreat.
This is the case everywhere and not just in Asia.
The ground combat model is just as bad for island battles as it is in asia. People just don't notice because they believe the combat report.
VP's in the game are based on troops actually killed. Look at the loss rates that these reflect. Even discounting the large surrenders of allied troops, Japan takes insignificant losses regardless of the tempo of their operations. The only way they lose significant forces is if they miscalculate and allow one ot their units to be thrown back in retreat.
This is the case everywhere and not just in Asia.
The ground combat model is just as bad for island battles as it is in asia. People just don't notice because they believe the combat report.
RE: Why are there no Chinese bases further than Sining?
The problems encountered in WITP with results in China and against Soviets and India are the product of a mindset among certain types of players who desire to transform the game into a Japanese Empire building game.
... and that wasn't the intent of the Japanese in WWII???
So you are saying the Japanese player is supposed to just roll over and be cannon fodder for the Allied player. What is the point of playing the game if you aren't allowed alternate strategies? The whole appeal of the game is to see if the Japanese player can affect a different outcome and that means employing alternate strategies and avoiding historical strategic mistakes. Who wants to play a position that is preordained to lose by the developer?
The Jap player must have resources to sustain the fight and China and India have them. Isn't this why they struck in Malaysia and the SRA?
This game is marketed as portraying the entire Pacific THEATER not just the Pacific OCEAN. I believe that China and India are included in that theater. If the Jap player isn't supposed to fight the Chinese and Indians, why not just place an abstract garrison requirement on the Jap in those areas and say no combat allowed?
If this is the official Matrix position, then they badly misjudged. Just because they didn't build a realistic land combat model doesn't mean they shouldn't have!
Chez
Ret Navy AWCS (1972-1998)
VP-5, Jacksonville, Fl 1973-78
ASW Ops Center, Rota, Spain 1978-81
VP-40, Mt View, Ca 1981-87
Patrol Wing 10, Mt View, CA 1987-90
ASW Ops Center, Adak, Ak 1990-92
NRD Seattle 1992-96
VP-46, Whidbey Isl, Wa 1996-98
VP-5, Jacksonville, Fl 1973-78
ASW Ops Center, Rota, Spain 1978-81
VP-40, Mt View, Ca 1981-87
Patrol Wing 10, Mt View, CA 1987-90
ASW Ops Center, Adak, Ak 1990-92
NRD Seattle 1992-96
VP-46, Whidbey Isl, Wa 1996-98
RE: Why are there no Chinese bases further than Sining?
I don't know if this is the official position of Matrix or just Mogami's personal position. By the way the game is setup, it looks like there is supposed to be fighting in China, Siberia, and India. I don't know how they expect people who just buy the game off the digital shelf to know these areas are off limits to the Japanese player.
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I feal so dirty when I sink convoys with 4E bombers, makes porn feal wholsome. - Brady, Founding Member of the Japanese Fanboy Club
RE: Mogami's last attempt.
If that is true, then the entire ground combat system is broken. How did this happen? Where were the beta testers? I guess you are probably right about the islands but it doesn't effect the end result as much as in Asia. In Asia if you can inflict a large defeat on the enemy, then you can pretty much own the entire map in the long run. It's like dominos; get the first one to fall and the rest will follow.
________________________________________
I feal so dirty when I sink convoys with 4E bombers, makes porn feal wholsome. - Brady, Founding Member of the Japanese Fanboy Club
RE: Mogami's last attempt.
The domino effect is exactly the way to describe it which is why I worry about solving the asia problem by upgunning the Chinese. The dominoes are going to fall one way or the other. Soon we will have China driving Japan out of Russia in 1943.
It doesn't seem to effect the island battles as much because once the defender surrenders there are no more local dominos to fall. Still attacking units can take a few thousand "casualties" but are then able to load up again and hit another island as if it was a training exercise.
Wouldn't it just be a lot better if when the combat report say 600 casualties that that actually means that you have 600 less men?
It doesn't seem to effect the island battles as much because once the defender surrenders there are no more local dominos to fall. Still attacking units can take a few thousand "casualties" but are then able to load up again and hit another island as if it was a training exercise.
Wouldn't it just be a lot better if when the combat report say 600 casualties that that actually means that you have 600 less men?
RE: Mogami's last attempt.
If that is true, then the entire ground combat system is broken. How did this happen? Where were the beta testers?
Could you be a little more dramatic with your posts? They are just not quite there yet! [:D]
You ever think that perhaps the players who simply want to play a free for all without regards to history might be the ones broken and not the game itself?
Japan went to war for one reason: Oil to prevent the complete collapse of their economy
Overlooking that and pretending otherwise due to that "I must win at all costs" mentality is really rather pointless. This is a war game, not a strategy game. I think sometimes people forget that at times.
Now you all paid for the game and that entitles you to play the game as you see fit. If you want to completely ignore history, feel free. Just don't expect the history buffs to sit back and agree with things like conquering China.
If the Yanks and Brits really considered Japan that much of a threat, don't you think that Japan would have taken Priority over Germany? Remember, Germany had already lost the Battle of Britain so they were not going any further.
I'm sure we can adjust the VP around so the fall of China & India still doesn't win the game ... then what will you do? Go back and fight for the Pacific? [:)]