Why are there no Chinese bases further than Sining?

[pasternakski]

ORIGINAL: Mogami
In the end, if you enjoy it and are having fun doing it then by all means go for it. I'm more interested in your knowing the actual history then in how you play a game.

Yo, bro.

[mogami]

ORIGINAL: moses

Here's an interesting fact form my game with WITP_Dude to add to the discusion:

I now have 14 divisions in Chungking as Japan. These are for the most part units which took Changsa in Dec. Attacked down the rail line fighting repeated actions against the chinese forces. They finally made it to wuchow where the fought a protracted battle for that city. Then they redeploed back toward the river crossing near changsa, went off road for a while to flank the enemy positions and finally defeated the Chinese force there. They march north from here to Chungking and have been fighting there for 4 or 5 days. It is late april 1942.

I just checked their status. All are within a squad or two of MTOE strength. My worst division has 13 disrupted squads!!!

Really I'm not trying to make people mad but this is a problem in my opinion. I think it should be possible to defeat China and I think that once you do so you should be able to benifit from such a victory. But after such a protracted campaign my troops should be at the point of utter exhaustion. Really at some point prior to my troops reaching Chungking, it should have been neccessary for me to pause for at least a week or two in order to regain disruption, morale, replace squads, or something. But I have moved pretty much non-stop with no ill-effects.

Hi, Is the game where no fighting occurs but in China. Are the units getting replacements? With no loss or replacements required anywhere but China? In otherwords is China the only active front?
By April 1942 other fronts would have consumed replacements that are instead going to China in your game.

[WiTP_Dude]

It really depends how many squads and other equipment he has in the pool. If it's a huge amount, I think it doesn't matter because it could easily cover Malay, the Phillipines, ect. If there isn't much there, then this a legitimate point.

[moses]

I've had replacments on everywhere but China is the only active front. But lets be clear about a couple points:

1.) China has not had unlimited supply. Per agreement with WITP_Dude I have moved one shipment per month of 49,000 supply to China for a total of 245,000 SP during the game. I think we both thought that this would be needed for Japan to continue any type of sustained offensive. In fact a huge part of this supply is still sitting at the docks unused. It is possible that some supply has seeped in from Hanoi or from Russia but I have made no effort to enhance this effect by for example basing large forces near the russian border in order to draw supplies.

2.) My point was mainly about the fact that my units were in such good shape. It is possible that with other theaters active the units would not be still at MTOE strength. But the small number of disrupted units would be the same. This is the astonishing point. 14 divisions most of which have been in heavy sustained combat for over four months have a combined total of 30 to 40 disrupted squads. This would not change in any way had we been playing a full game.

3.) The game was specifically designed to test this theater. Every effort was made to conduct the campaign in a way that was consistant with full map play. Now this cannot be done perfectly but every effort was made to balance the situation with respect to full map play.

4.) My losses in China have been very low as indicated by the VP total. I think I'm at about 66 army loss pts now. Most of these resulted from the retreat of a few small Japanese units that occured from to to time. Given the very low losses that I have sustained there is no reason to think that the replacement situation would have been any different in a full map game.

[mogami]

Hi, Holy Cow 245,000 supply sent to China before May 1942???? Yike I am in May 1942
in a normal PBEM with very heavy fighting in China and most Japanese units are at 75 percent TOE (50 percent undamegd)
I had a low point of 220,000 supply total on map (everywhere) I thought it a great thing when I sent 2 convoys of 10,500 supply to China (one north one south)

[Mr.Frag]

Ever going to answer? 1.4 or 1.3? [:D]

[moses]

Reply to frag: Don't remenber being asked?? We started on 1.3 then switched to 1.4 about a month or so in.

[mogami]

Hi, Are the Japanese sending supply to units outside China? When those units get below 20k they will stop taking replacements. Only Home Defense and China will then be drawing them and Home Islands are mostly IJN and baseforce. Stuff not used by any units outside China if other units not drawing them.

[Mr.Frag]

Reply to frag: Don't remenber being asked?? We started on 1.3 then switched to 1.4 about a month or so in.

Ok, so this is prior to us reworking China to actually not be a total pushover. Thats fine. Just wanted to be sure which set you were playing. The original China layout was aimed at Allied vs AI so China couldn't kick Japan out. (most of the players coming to the game play this)

[moses]

Maybe this is high, I don't know. Japan starts with 3,000,000 or so and produces what 25,000 per turn (you know better than I do). 49,000 per month seemed reasonable to both of us at the time. But of course it was not really needed. Most is still sitting at the docks. When last I checked there was 75,000 in Shanghie and a couple locations along the coast with 20-30K each.

I can give an accounting of where all this supply sits tommorow afternoon if anyone is interested. But if I sent a little to much supply to China it really doesn't change anything. It does not explain in the least the fantastic condition of these japanese units after such a campaign.

[WiTP_Dude]

In my match with Zeta these kind of shipments of supply happened to keep the Japanese units from dropping below 100% supply on their drive to Chungking. I also had enough supply to build all those extra Pacific bases up to level 9 forts. So the supply is available.

[moses]

No but most Japanese units are still at mainland since I am not playing SRA. But still all you have to look at is the army loss VP's. 66 is a very small number. They really havn't lost enough force to require large numbers of replacements.

[mogami]

Hi, It does when you compare it to what Japanese units look like in games where supply and replacements are not so abundant. I have 6 games as Japan going. My units are not in the condition yours have maintained.
I will conceed that part of it is your better handling of units in China but part of it has to be supply/replacements
Also units simply fight better and recover disruption and fatigue faster when there is a supply surplus.
I am failing to take Chinese bases because my units have less then 100 percent supply so they don't fight at 100 percent. As soon as I can scrap together 50k per month for China I'll let you know if things improve.

[moses]

Reply to WITP_DUDE

Yeah I really think it is a myth in the game that Japan is so short of supply. I understand that historically they were but in the game I have never had a problem. Maybe its because I don't tinker with production much and so I don't use supply in that way. I have always had plenty of supply in full map games the only problem being to make sure it gets to the needed locations.

49,000 SP per month seemed very reasonable to me but if I did the game over I would reduce it to see if it mattered.

[DrewMatrix]

re China as an edge of the map ploy:

If Japan invades the US there is a massive influx of troops (a moving forward in time for troops that would appear later) to limit the ability of Japan to exploit the small number of troops the US is ready to send to the Pacific in, say, May 1942. By making this conditional on a Japanese invasion of the West Coast the US doesn't actually have these troops on the map. If the Allied player had them he could (unrealistically) send all those troops (training or earmarked for Europe) to the Pacific even if Japan should not invade Portland in May of 1942. (another map edge anomaly).

So I suggest you insert into the game a massive influx in the East should the Japanese push to the edge of the map in that area.

What would really happen if the Japanese overan China? How about a (substantial) boost in garrison requirements. And any city that fall short of garrison requirements (even if it has no industry or resources) starts to produce Chinese corps. Maybe 3 per turn? Forever. I mean, how long can it take to kill 3 Corps of Chinese, per city, per turn, forever?

And for Russia, what would really happen? Remember the Japanese tried themselves against the Soviets just before the game begins (at Nomnohan) and found that they had the fear, if not of God, at least of Soviet Armor and Soviet Artillery (the Japanese don't really have Armor. Or Artillery. Look at their OB)

Should Japan invade Russia then:
1) No auto victory for Japan (the reason being that now they have to wait, regardless of how sucessful they are in India and the Pacific) until Stalin had obliterated Berlin. Then they have to negotiate with Stalin after violating their non-aggression pact. Me, I would just commit seppuku. Cleaner.

2) Assuming no Seppuku, the Japanese have to deal with Stalin. They sit and build and in mid 1945 they deal with maybe 30% the Soviet Army that was used in Europe. (Remember by mid 1945 "Soviet Armor" translates into Japanese as "Stalin I and Stalin II")

3) Did I mention that the US will have some troops and ships free in Mid 1945 after the war in Europe is over?

4) So in June of 1945, you, having given up the option of instant victory, have to fight to the death against enough of the Red Army to pave the map and all the ships and Aircraft the US has built for both theaters since 7/12/1941.

Should be hilarious.

[WiTP_Dude]

Where do you use all your suppy? It seems like you should have enough since you aren't invading that many places. Do you upgrade your industries a lot?

[mogami]

Hi, All this ignores history. Are there enough CHinese units on map in place and in condition to dupllicate the 3rd battle of Changsha where 300,000 Chinese defeat 120,000 Japanese between Dec 24th and Jan 15th without lessening the defense of any other Chinese base?

Before WITP is finished with China there will be. SOme scenario designer is going to redo China and when it is adopted for play the whole issue will go away. China will not provide easy VP in 1942.
Then I will be telling Allied players that the CHinese did not attack the Japanese for political reasons and they should not do it or the Japanese player will lose the game in 1943.

[moses]

AAARGGG. Finally get a discussion going ref this topic and wife is going to kill me if I don't quit. I be sure to continue this tomorrow. Thank you for your interest.

[moses]

One more Post: Yes I agree completely that all this ignores history. I want it to match history better but it should occur natuarally from the game situation and not by admonishing players not to do things because they are ahistorical.

It should not be so easy in China nor in Russia or India. But as is Russia is a lost cause for the allies as I have clearly demonstrated. And China is only going to be held by a very very knowlegable allied player. This is not as it should be.

[mogami]

Hi, Both the Soviet and Chinese OB in the game are incomplete. In North China in 1941 the Communists had over 300,000 troops. (They had 400,000 the year before but during the attack of 100 Regts lost many. It took the Japanese most of 1940 to restore the situation in the north. This was the last time the Communists made a major effort against the Japanese. They conserved their strength for the Civil War but did continue to ambush and harrass the Japanese in a further 11,000 skirmish and minor battle. The Japanese never tried to take the North after the battle of 100 Regts) They are not in WITP. There is no Soviet Fleet
I don't think Japanese players want the 90+ submarines that were there active in 1941.
Fixing the OB will fix the problems.

Except of course we will then have the Chinese problem. They will win the war because they will agree not to fight their Civil War and be the manpower for the Allies.
Just march 500,000 of them to India and dump supply on them for a year.

If Japanese players wish to go all out in China that is fair. But China should be China and not "fixed" to make it act like China.
We will give it it's real (but unused) power to place against Japans real (but unused) power and let it rip.


There were 1.2 million armed Chinese Communists by 1945

China lost around 3 million troops in combat/ Japan over 1 million
To lose 3 million in combat and have 3 million in the field at the end means the Army in China was around 3 times the size used in WITP. The Japanese in WITP are about accurate.