Also China is not so defenceless as some think. Right now you have 72 Corps vs 20 or so JP divisons. At the start a lot of the Chinese divisions are not where you would like them and have poor morale and experience. Over time however both of these problems correct themselves and this theater becomes much more balanced.
The key is to survive the initial Japanese onslaught which is difficult unless you practically have a PHD in WITP with a major in Land operations. But even in 1.3 it is possible for China to defend if he knows what to do. I would never play WITP_Dude again in China even in version 1.3. (Actually I might but I would expect to make nowhere near the progress that I have in our current game.) I would think playing him under version 1.4 would be a daunting challange.
A doubling of the Chinese Corps strength, as some have proposed, would make it virtually impossible for Japan to do anything, even very limited offensive as were historically possible. China can sit behind a rock solid defence and build experience and morale. Then once forts are all up to 9 and experience and morale are where you want them you mass 40 corps at a single point and just drive Japan out.
I really don't think it will be possible for Japan to hold the line against China much into 1943. But even if they do stop the Chinese onslaught you still have the problem of the allies supporting a mass bomber campaign from China.
Just my opinion.
Why are there no Chinese bases further than Sining?
Moderators: Joel Billings, wdolson, Don Bowen, mogami
RE: Why are there no Chinese bases further than Sining?
Moses this is probably what would have happened if Politics hadnt got in the way of the Chinese so thats fair enough.
Problem is Allied players will abuse this new strength to actually attack when they should not.....
Andy
Problem is Allied players will abuse this new strength to actually attack when they should not.....
Andy
RE: Why are there no Chinese bases further than Sining?
Hi, Can you provide me with just 1 example of successfull Japanese offensive before 1944 directed at a Chinese held city that succeeded in taking the objective?
The 1944 offensive required the weaking of the Manchuria garrison. (The Soviets began movement of troops as soon as the Japanese began transfer but they did not attack untill 1945( but in WITP terms the Japanese still had the required garrison)
They then succeeded in taking the city of Changsha. But this was the 4th try since 1941
It required 3 years and a massive reinforcement to do what Japanese players in WITP do in 2 weeks. (The Japanese used 360,000 troops to take Changsha. Their offensive then stalled)
As I've pointed out before The AI will play the same.
2 humans can decide before they start how they want to treat the game.
If you want to beat up the AI either side it's your choice.
If you want historic behaviour in China versus the AI it's your choice.
If you don't like a scenario edit it to what you like.
There never has been any valid reason for anyone to post a complaint about OOB issues.
Just make them the way you want.
It is nice to post where the OOB is incorrect or something but to complain? In a game that requires 1000 hours to play I think if there was something I disagreed with I'd spend 1 or 2 hours making it conform to my idea.
(not directed at anyone personally)
The 1944 offensive required the weaking of the Manchuria garrison. (The Soviets began movement of troops as soon as the Japanese began transfer but they did not attack untill 1945( but in WITP terms the Japanese still had the required garrison)
They then succeeded in taking the city of Changsha. But this was the 4th try since 1941
It required 3 years and a massive reinforcement to do what Japanese players in WITP do in 2 weeks. (The Japanese used 360,000 troops to take Changsha. Their offensive then stalled)
As I've pointed out before The AI will play the same.
2 humans can decide before they start how they want to treat the game.
If you want to beat up the AI either side it's your choice.
If you want historic behaviour in China versus the AI it's your choice.
If you don't like a scenario edit it to what you like.
There never has been any valid reason for anyone to post a complaint about OOB issues.
Just make them the way you want.
It is nice to post where the OOB is incorrect or something but to complain? In a game that requires 1000 hours to play I think if there was something I disagreed with I'd spend 1 or 2 hours making it conform to my idea.
(not directed at anyone personally)
I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!
RE: Why are there no Chinese bases further than Sining?
No, I'm not an expert on the war. The fact that they did launch a limited offensive in 44 and that some allied leaders thought China might collapse at various points does indicate some offensive capability.
But I'm not arguing with you that the game is too easy for Japan between to equally experience opponents. IT IS CLEARLY TO EASY FOR JAPAN TO MAKE EARLY PROGRESS. I'm not yelling here[:D] I just want to be clear that I AGREE WITH YOU ON THIS POINT.
The game clearly does not simulate the stalemate that existed for much of the war.
Where I may differ is in my view that it is not inconcievable to me that Japan could have made progress had they done things differently.
Is it possible that a great plan combined with an infusion of resourses and a willingness to take lots of losses might have allowed a successful offensive? I don't know the answer and I don't think it is really knowable although everyone can have their opinion. From a game perspective however I think that its better if both sides have some chance to do better than history.
I think greatly increasing the OOB strength of China will not give you the static equilibrium that you desire. It will in my opinion give you a stalemate in early 42 followed by a chinese romp through asia sometime in late 42/early 43.
But I'm not arguing with you that the game is too easy for Japan between to equally experience opponents. IT IS CLEARLY TO EASY FOR JAPAN TO MAKE EARLY PROGRESS. I'm not yelling here[:D] I just want to be clear that I AGREE WITH YOU ON THIS POINT.
The game clearly does not simulate the stalemate that existed for much of the war.
Where I may differ is in my view that it is not inconcievable to me that Japan could have made progress had they done things differently.
Is it possible that a great plan combined with an infusion of resourses and a willingness to take lots of losses might have allowed a successful offensive? I don't know the answer and I don't think it is really knowable although everyone can have their opinion. From a game perspective however I think that its better if both sides have some chance to do better than history.
I think greatly increasing the OOB strength of China will not give you the static equilibrium that you desire. It will in my opinion give you a stalemate in early 42 followed by a chinese romp through asia sometime in late 42/early 43.
RE: Why are there no Chinese bases further than Sining?
Hi, It will give you whatever you agree to.
If you say before you begin to keep quiet it will keep quiet. If you say free for all it will be a free for all.
Vinager Joe is the wrong person to use for Allied beliefs.
But then the Allies were so worried about China versus the Japanese they asked for 40 Chinese divisions to move to India. (in 1941 and they kept on asking)
Japan can still go on the offensive. But now they will have to be making a major effort.
They better prepare their units before they begin because in my mod the Chinese will be prepared and dug in (for defenese) The Japanese will also be prepared (for defense)
But I'll make the 4 Japanese Div that attacked Changsha in Dec 1941 100 percent ready to do that.
If you say before you begin to keep quiet it will keep quiet. If you say free for all it will be a free for all.
Vinager Joe is the wrong person to use for Allied beliefs.
But then the Allies were so worried about China versus the Japanese they asked for 40 Chinese divisions to move to India. (in 1941 and they kept on asking)
Japan can still go on the offensive. But now they will have to be making a major effort.
They better prepare their units before they begin because in my mod the Chinese will be prepared and dug in (for defenese) The Japanese will also be prepared (for defense)
But I'll make the 4 Japanese Div that attacked Changsha in Dec 1941 100 percent ready to do that.
I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!
RE: Why are there no Chinese bases further than Sining?
There will be no Japanese offensive. Give me double strength 4 division corps in China and the best player will not be able to take a single city of mine. You can add half the SRA divisions to Chian and it will make no diference. If he tries an offensive he will be crushed like a bug.
4 months later my troops will be rolling.---- I know ---I'm just gaming the system. I should know better than to use my divisions to take cities and stuff.
This is just a mod your doing ,correct?
4 months later my troops will be rolling.---- I know ---I'm just gaming the system. I should know better than to use my divisions to take cities and stuff.
This is just a mod your doing ,correct?
RE: Why are there no Chinese bases further than Sining?
Hi, You do know you are not required to use any files you don't like. You can edit them yourself.
In the beginning WITP was a game about the Pacific War.
China had to be included for many reasons. It was a storehouse of Japanese combat strength
A supply source
And located between major areas of importance in Pacific War.
Japanese forces in China were included because they might be drawn apon for service elsewhere.
Japan was strong enough to maintain it's position in China and even improve it.
China was included as well but it was not made strong enough to bother the Japanese and it was thought they were able to hold enough to make China contribute to over all war without becoming the focus of the war.
Now the size of Chinese units was and remains a matter of designer balance. There is not data to support Chinese TOE for every Chinese unit compared to data for Japanese.
China will always reflect the designer of the scenario.
As far as I can tell the current scenario 15 is off by around 50 percent.
But it still does not make China a monster. The Chinese are tied to their supply sources
Before the japanese could take these away with ease.
Now the Chinese can defend them. They can defend them in hexes outside the city. This means the Chinese will be much harder to surround. And the japanese cannot stop supply production just by moving into the hex. The Chinese can throw all but major efforts out.
However a city that can support 1000 AV for example will fall if 2000 AV move there unless outside supply is on hand (because this 2000AV force would end up fighting like 500AV when it ran out of supply)
If the Japanese move a lot of supply close enough to where the Chinese can reach it and then do not defend it then I suppose the Chinese could make a larger offensive.
SInce both sides will start dug in and preped for the hex they are located in the battles will favour the defender and only spending time to prepare an attack will help off set this.
The Japanese can still move faster.
The Chinese will consume supply faster. This is only offset if they retian their supply cities.
If they move away from them and allow the Japanese to take them the loss to them will be larger then before. If they could not support the old OB they willbe in twice the trouble if they lose their cities now. (unless the scenario designers adds supply)
In the beginning WITP was a game about the Pacific War.
China had to be included for many reasons. It was a storehouse of Japanese combat strength
A supply source
And located between major areas of importance in Pacific War.
Japanese forces in China were included because they might be drawn apon for service elsewhere.
Japan was strong enough to maintain it's position in China and even improve it.
China was included as well but it was not made strong enough to bother the Japanese and it was thought they were able to hold enough to make China contribute to over all war without becoming the focus of the war.
Now the size of Chinese units was and remains a matter of designer balance. There is not data to support Chinese TOE for every Chinese unit compared to data for Japanese.
China will always reflect the designer of the scenario.
As far as I can tell the current scenario 15 is off by around 50 percent.
But it still does not make China a monster. The Chinese are tied to their supply sources
Before the japanese could take these away with ease.
Now the Chinese can defend them. They can defend them in hexes outside the city. This means the Chinese will be much harder to surround. And the japanese cannot stop supply production just by moving into the hex. The Chinese can throw all but major efforts out.
However a city that can support 1000 AV for example will fall if 2000 AV move there unless outside supply is on hand (because this 2000AV force would end up fighting like 500AV when it ran out of supply)
If the Japanese move a lot of supply close enough to where the Chinese can reach it and then do not defend it then I suppose the Chinese could make a larger offensive.
SInce both sides will start dug in and preped for the hex they are located in the battles will favour the defender and only spending time to prepare an attack will help off set this.
The Japanese can still move faster.
The Chinese will consume supply faster. This is only offset if they retian their supply cities.
If they move away from them and allow the Japanese to take them the loss to them will be larger then before. If they could not support the old OB they willbe in twice the trouble if they lose their cities now. (unless the scenario designers adds supply)
I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!
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DrewMatrix
- Posts: 1429
- Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2004 2:49 pm
RE: Why are there no Chinese bases further than Sining?
By beefing up China, Japan is forced to put more thought into the theatre,
In the game if you beef up China to about the numbers they had historically the Allied player will actually try to use those units. In Real Life the Chinese would fight defensively if pushed but were very reluctant to take the offensive, and certainly wouldn't help each other out (ie the Chinese should not be viewed as "one side" let alone the same side as the allies.
I presume The Management limited the Chinese OB just so the Allies would not launch a huge, coordinated offensive with all the Chinese working in concert with the SEAC Brit/Indians.
How about:
Lots more Chinese in the OB (up to the histgoric levels). That would make it harder for the Japanese to role up the Chinese.
But you have two different sets of VPs: The Allies lose the low (or even lower) numbers of VPs for troops killed by Japanese attacks but much larger numbers of VPs (maybe the same as US troops) if they lose a battle on offense than on defense? That would make "Mao" and "Chiang" willing to hold on defense, but make them husband their troops, not taking the offensive so they can use the troops against each other later.
The problem is you hardly ever lose troops on offense, though.
Beezle - Rapidly running out of altitude, airspeed and ideas.
RE: Why are there no Chinese bases further than Sining?
Give me double strength 4 division corps in China and the best player will not be able to take a single city of mine.
Strength matters not without supply. China will be very hard pressed to do much as they are supply limited. Japan is not supply limited so they can choose the point of attack. That is *still* a very powerful advantage. Couple to that the fact that Japan has eyes in the skys and China doesn't and it still has the makings of some rude shocks.
RE: Why are there no Chinese bases further than Sining?
Plus the scary thing is its not only about VP's although that is important. Even without the VP's the ability to free up large japanese forces in China to go elsewhere is tempting.
And thats the problem. Increase the attackers casualties just a bit and decrease the defender's just a bit. Just a little bit somehow. I think China would do OK with the changes already in place with 1.4.
But thats just my opinion.
Its not that easy in China. Dude is giving me a good fight. Had I just lost some troops in all those battles my offensive would have been long stalled.
The problem is you hardly ever lose troops on offense, though.
And thats the problem. Increase the attackers casualties just a bit and decrease the defender's just a bit. Just a little bit somehow. I think China would do OK with the changes already in place with 1.4.
But thats just my opinion.
Its not that easy in China. Dude is giving me a good fight. Had I just lost some troops in all those battles my offensive would have been long stalled.
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DrewMatrix
- Posts: 1429
- Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2004 2:49 pm
RE: Why are there no Chinese bases further than Sining?
eyes in the skys
Hmm, The Chinese do have air units. Would they be best used doing recon in threatened areas?
Higher detection levels help the attacker. Do they help the defender too?
Beezle - Rapidly running out of altitude, airspeed and ideas.
RE: Why are there no Chinese bases further than Sining?
Non-recon aircraft don't work near as well as recon aircraft, large bonus difference. China just doesn't have the boys like Japan that can keep China under sight pretty much constantly. I'm sure you've noticed just how quickly everything fades away if you stop the recon flights.
RE: Why are there no Chinese bases further than Sining?
Hi, I admit I am confused.
Increase the loss to the attacker but the method used is to not attack with the units but use the engineers and arty instead.
The reason Chinese defense fails to inflict damage to Japanese is because the Chinese units are being rooted out by engineers.
In reality (The actual war) Japanese loss were sustained after 1941 by Chinese counter attacks.
Increase Chinese AV will result in Chinese units ATTACKING Japanese units. The Chinese will also get the bennies from the attack. But they don't have the engineer units to root Japanese defenders out with. However Chinese attacks can keep the Japanese disrupted and kill enough that the Japanese player will have to question whether or not he want to sit in the same hex as 200,000 Chinese when another 200,000 Chinese are in the next hex. The hex the 200,000 Chinese he is presently fighting are going to retreat into (of their own free will) Then the Japanese player will have to move into the new hex and fight fresh Chinese. And the battle will still not be located in a Chinese supply city. (where another 100,000 Chinese are waiting. The 200,000 Chinese that just left the fisrt hex will join the defenders and rest before going back to battle or moving to a new location.
However the CHinese can't move too far from their supply (supply gets wasted moving across country. Less down roads and RR but it is still wasted. The Chinese can't afford to waste supply. By sitting in the hexes next to their supply they don't waste any and they protect it.
Chinese supply cities are gardens and the Japanese are hungry rabbits. The Chinese need to stay close to them or they will go hungry. If they lose them they will starve.
One thing that always amuses me in this game is the lack of allowing time to have any effect.
Why rush to Chungking after you take the forward supply cities? Wait a year.
If the Allied player moves heavy bombers laugh. The supply of your he might disrupt but the supply he uses to bomb you or build the airfields will mean his combat units go hungry. If you move into their hex early when they have supply they bite you. Let them run out before you mve in.
The reason I am going on at length here is it seems to me people forget why the Pacific War began.
Japan decided to cut the supply lines. Then the Chinese would have to come to terms because they would not be able to fight any longer.
But then as a result of Indo China the USA invoked the embargo (along with the Netherlands)
Now it was Japan that was going to run out of supply.
Rather then give up in China the Japanese decided to take the supply they needed by force.
In WITP however the Japanese have no need to start the Pacific War.
Simply put. If Japan can gain a military victory against China in 1942 there is no reason for the Pacific War.
They defeat China and then Withdraw. (After installing a new leader of the Chinese who will sign the paper.)
Then they withdraw from Indo China.
The Japanese didn't give a hoot about anything but China. (Before they paid for it)
Increase the loss to the attacker but the method used is to not attack with the units but use the engineers and arty instead.
The reason Chinese defense fails to inflict damage to Japanese is because the Chinese units are being rooted out by engineers.
In reality (The actual war) Japanese loss were sustained after 1941 by Chinese counter attacks.
Increase Chinese AV will result in Chinese units ATTACKING Japanese units. The Chinese will also get the bennies from the attack. But they don't have the engineer units to root Japanese defenders out with. However Chinese attacks can keep the Japanese disrupted and kill enough that the Japanese player will have to question whether or not he want to sit in the same hex as 200,000 Chinese when another 200,000 Chinese are in the next hex. The hex the 200,000 Chinese he is presently fighting are going to retreat into (of their own free will) Then the Japanese player will have to move into the new hex and fight fresh Chinese. And the battle will still not be located in a Chinese supply city. (where another 100,000 Chinese are waiting. The 200,000 Chinese that just left the fisrt hex will join the defenders and rest before going back to battle or moving to a new location.
However the CHinese can't move too far from their supply (supply gets wasted moving across country. Less down roads and RR but it is still wasted. The Chinese can't afford to waste supply. By sitting in the hexes next to their supply they don't waste any and they protect it.
Chinese supply cities are gardens and the Japanese are hungry rabbits. The Chinese need to stay close to them or they will go hungry. If they lose them they will starve.
One thing that always amuses me in this game is the lack of allowing time to have any effect.
Why rush to Chungking after you take the forward supply cities? Wait a year.
If the Allied player moves heavy bombers laugh. The supply of your he might disrupt but the supply he uses to bomb you or build the airfields will mean his combat units go hungry. If you move into their hex early when they have supply they bite you. Let them run out before you mve in.
The reason I am going on at length here is it seems to me people forget why the Pacific War began.
Japan decided to cut the supply lines. Then the Chinese would have to come to terms because they would not be able to fight any longer.
But then as a result of Indo China the USA invoked the embargo (along with the Netherlands)
Now it was Japan that was going to run out of supply.
Rather then give up in China the Japanese decided to take the supply they needed by force.
In WITP however the Japanese have no need to start the Pacific War.
Simply put. If Japan can gain a military victory against China in 1942 there is no reason for the Pacific War.
They defeat China and then Withdraw. (After installing a new leader of the Chinese who will sign the paper.)
Then they withdraw from Indo China.
The Japanese didn't give a hoot about anything but China. (Before they paid for it)
I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!
RE: Why are there no Chinese bases further than Sining?
Ok serious comments:
-Higher forts in Chinese cities at start
-More partisans (in some format)
-Chinese communists were better led and had much better troops (if not equipment) than in the game
-Railroad to Sian? I'd remove it
And to everyone: don't be so negative, criticism should be constructive.
-Higher forts in Chinese cities at start
-More partisans (in some format)
-Chinese communists were better led and had much better troops (if not equipment) than in the game
-Railroad to Sian? I'd remove it
And to everyone: don't be so negative, criticism should be constructive.
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DrewMatrix
- Posts: 1429
- Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2004 2:49 pm
RE: Why are there no Chinese bases further than Sining?
-Higher forts in Chinese cities at start
If the goal is to make China harder to overrun without letting China take the offensive too easily that would help and be simple to implement.
Chinese communists were better led and had much better troops
Don't like it. You will have Mao rolling up the Chinese or (worse) actually helping Chiang.
Railroad to Sian? I'd remove it
Seems a good idea. You want really lousy point to point communications. You will still be able to advance troops (see Mogami's "Just wait a year" comment) but the rate at which supply oozes forward will slow.
Beezle - Rapidly running out of altitude, airspeed and ideas.
RE: Why are there no Chinese bases further than Sining?
ORIGINAL: sveint
Ok serious comments:
-Higher forts in Chinese cities at start
-More partisans (in some format)
-Chinese communists were better led and had much better troops (if not equipment) than in the game
-Railroad to Sian? I'd remove it
And to everyone: don't be so negative, criticism should be constructive.
I agree forts should be increased and more partisan effects added. Disagree about the railroad to Sian, however. It did exist. It's the railroad to Yenan that needs to be removed, like I wrote about six months ago.
________________________________________
I feal so dirty when I sink convoys with 4E bombers, makes porn feal wholsome. - Brady, Founding Member of the Japanese Fanboy Club
RE: Why are there no Chinese bases further than Sining?
Hi, I admit I am confused.
Increase the loss to the attacker but the method used is to not attack with the units but use the engineers and arty instead.
At this point so am I. You're confusing threads. The Changsa thread discusses what now appears to be a bug involving small forces (engineers and armor) being able to attack with great success against large forces. This is a seperate issue that is probably best left to the other thread.
I was refering in this thread to the ability of the superior force to launch long drawn out offensives essentially without loss and without burning great amounts of supply.
So for example in China after months of fighting I had all of my units still fighting at near 100% capability while the Chinese forces had been decimated by retreats. Similarly in Burma it is difficult to fight any kind of delaying action since the defending units will take large numbers of kills in each battle and while retreating. Japan on the other hand only gets a handful of disrupted units which soon recover.
The Japanese therefore never have to rest to recover, they can just attack relentlessly for months on end.
Anyway its been discussed to death in this thread.
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Andrew Brown
- Posts: 4083
- Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2000 8:00 am
- Location: Hex 82,170
- Contact:
RE: Why are there no Chinese bases further than Sining?
I would like to repeat a suggestion I made previously. While I agree that the Chinese should be provided with extra forces if they are under-represented currently, it might be a good idea to make some of their ground forces static. This would enable them to defend more effectively, but prevent the Chinese turning into an unrealistic "Yellow Steamroller" later in the war.
Making some of their forces static would be a good way of representing the disorganisation, factionalism and outright civil war that existed in China at the time.
Making some of their forces static would be a good way of representing the disorganisation, factionalism and outright civil war that existed in China at the time.
RE: Why are there no Chinese bases further than Sining?
ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown
I would like to repeat a suggestion I made previously. While I agree that the Chinese should be provided with extra forces if they are under-represented currently, it might be a good idea to make some of their ground forces static. This would enable them to defend more effectively, but prevent the Chinese turning into an unrealistic "Yellow Steamroller" later in the war.
Making some of their forces static would be a good way of representing the disorganisation, factionalism and outright civil war that existed in China at the time.
Seems like the best way to do this is little bits of supply at each base Andrew ... it gives them enough to defend (which is less supply intensive) but not enough to go on rampage. Anytime you make something static, you doom it to being cut off and killed.
RE: Why are there no Chinese bases further than Sining?
You can do anything you want in a mod but I have to wonder.
If you make China so strong that Japan cannot accomplish anything and then you make a bunch of the Chinese units static why not just make everything static and leave it at that. Units can leave China if they pay the PP cost and other then that they just sit.
Doesn't seem like its worth the effort to have to pay attention to the theater if nothing can happen except perhaps by gross oversite.
If you make China so strong that Japan cannot accomplish anything and then you make a bunch of the Chinese units static why not just make everything static and leave it at that. Units can leave China if they pay the PP cost and other then that they just sit.
Doesn't seem like its worth the effort to have to pay attention to the theater if nothing can happen except perhaps by gross oversite.