Japanese grand strategy

[Rossj]

I read several posts regarding an ahistorical strategy in which the japanese player would knock the soviets, chinese and brits out of the war by forcing them off the map. There were two camps on the debate:

One group stated that the games was designed to be a contest between the U.S. and Japan and everything else was a side show. Thus the edge of the board strategy was good gamesmanship, but otherwise absurd.

The other group felt that the game design should allow for alternative japanese strategies.

Clearly a game this immense should allow for other strategic directions and it can be done without gutting the current game.

Here's some ideas on what could be done:
1) have the west most map rows (4 or 5) off limits to japanese ground and naval forces. This keeps these powers in play and forces japan to maintain armies on the borders
2) beef-up chinese garrison requirements and add garrison requirements for russia, india, austrailia and all major oil/resource producing areas...penalty for not garrisoning resource areas means loss of resources...for not garrisoning china, austrailia, russia means partisan units...or maybe garrison units are frozen in place unless relplaced by an appropriate number of assault points.
3) upgrade china oob to historical levels, but they can only conduct offensive operations to recapture cities that they start the game with. Lift this restriction in 1945 or when the allies reach a certain victory point level.
4) In the start up phase for scenario 15, have the japanese player declare whether or not he is making the non aggresion treaty with the soviets. If he does, Japan can't invade russia unless the japanese reach a certain number of victory points. If he doesn't, the japanese player gets 1000VP (or whatever is right), can invade when he wants, but has to increase the size of the Kwangtung Garrison to 9000AP (or whatever is right).

[mogami]

Hi, I'm working on a modified scenario 15. Of course what I modify reflects my opinions of the war. But for general comparison lets use the Soviets

In scenario 15 they have 3xTank Bde with total AV of 210

In my scenario they have 3x Tank Div with a total AV of 1500 (plus 2 Mech Div missing from Scneario 15 and a Airborne Bde missing from Scenario 15)

If the Allied splits 1 Div he has 3 units that are each twice as strong as the units in scenario 15.
(rather then 3x70AV he will have 9x140 AV units)

This does not unbalance the scenario because the Allied player cannot start a war with the Japanese. The Japanese player has to start it by under garrisoning or direct attack.
The Japanese player can still defeat the Soviets. But it will not be a quick operation and he will need to commit a sizable force from outside to do it.

The Chinese will also be much harder.

On top of all this bases are worth nothing.

The scenario is meant for 2 humans who are ignoring Auto victory and set on playing till one of them admits defeat. When I play it as Japan I will surrender when

1.Japan is out of supply.
2. Home Islands are being bombed by Allied heavy bombers carrying normal loads
3. No production
4. The Allied player has 2x the VP

I will surrender if only 2 conditions are met if Allied player agrees I can retain the Emperor.

I will surrender if any 3 cities in Japan are occupied by Allies and one of these cities is Tokyo (regardless of any other conditions)

Japan wins the war if
The Allied player resigns (Allies grant a settlement favorable to Japan in return for Japan returning some of the conquered territory but retaining rights in China and possision of some of the SRA resources or being granted shipments)

The Allied player runs out of turns before forcing me to surrender

There are no draws possible.

[mogami]

Hi, Here is OB I am using (shows changes from WITP scenario 15)

Far Eastern Front

1st (Red Banner) Army

26th Rifle Corps
21st Rifle Division
22nd Rifle Division
26th Rifle Division

59th Rifle Corps
39th Rifle Division
59th Rifle Division

30th Mechanized Corps
58th Tank Division (Bde) 375 Tanks (53)
60th Tank Division (Bde) 375 Tanks (53)
239th Mechanized Division (Mot Bde) 275 Tanks (0)
29th Motorcycle Regiment (missing)

8th Cavalry Division
1st Rifle Brigade
4th Rifle Brigade
5th Rifle Brigade
105th Fortified Sector
4th Spassk-Ussuriiskaya Air Defense Regional Brigade
50th Artillery Regiment
273rd Artillery Regiment
165th RGK Howitzer Regiment
199th RGK Super Heavy Howitzer Regiment
549th RGK Super Heavy Howitzer Regiment
3rd Armored Train Battalion
115th Anti-Aircraft Battalion
129th Anti-Aircraft Battalion
29th Engineer Battalion


2nd (Red Banner) Army

3rd Rifle Division
12th Rifle Division
59th Tank Division (Bde)375 Tanks (53)
69th Mechanized Division (Mot Bde) 275 Tanks (0)
Ust-Bureiskii Fortified Sector
101st Fortified Sector
1st Kuibyshevskaya Air Defense Regional Brigade
42nd Artillery Regiment
114th RGK Howitzer Regiment
550th RGK Super Heavy Howitzer Regiment
2nd Heavy Pontoon-Bridge Regiment
36th Pontoon-Bridge Regiment
2nd Armored Train Battalion
5th Armored Railcar Battalion


15th Army

18th Rifle Corps
34th Rifle Division
202nd Airbone Brigade (missing)

2nd Birobidzhanskaya Air Defense Regional Brigade
102nd Fortified Sector
52nd Artillery Regiment
76th Artillery Regiment
3rd Heavy Pontoon-Bridge Regiment
11th Pontoon-Bridge Regiment
16th Pontoon-Bridge Regiment
129th Sapper Battalion
110th Anti-Aircraft Battalion


25th Army

39th Rifle Corps
32nd Rifle Division
40th Rifle Division
92nd Rifle Division

105th Rifle Division
5th Voroshilov-Ussuriiskaya Air Defense Regional Brigade
106th Fortified Sector
107th Fortified Sector
108th Fortified Sector
110th Fortified Sector
111th Fortified Sector
282nd Artillery Regiment
548th Artillery Regiment
215th Howitzer Regiment
386th Howitzer Regiment
59th Anti-Aircraft Battalion
32nd Engineer Regiment
69th Sapper Battalion
9th Armored Train Battalion


Front Reserves

Special Rifle Corps (Located on Sakhalin Island)
79th Rifle Division
101st Mountain Rifle Division

35th Rifle Division
66th Rifle Division
78th Rifle Division
5th Air Defense Brigade
3rd Komsomolsk-on-Amur Air Defense Regional Brigade
103rd Fortified Sector
104th Fortified Sector
109th Fortified Sector
66th Armored Train Regiment
187th Artillery Regiment
181st RGK Howitzer Regiment
372nd RGK Howitzer Regiment
411th RGK Howitzer Regiment
26th Engineer Regiment
362nd Artillery Battalion
367th Artillery Battalion
21st Mortar Battalion
22nd Mortar Battalion
70th Anti-Aircraft Battalion
60th Sapper Battalion

[mogami]

Hi, It is slow going because I have to translate everything from Russian to figure out type of tanks and locations

30th Mech Corps

"Formation:Corps began to be formed during March 1941 in the Far East - 60th tank division in Birobidzhana region, remaining divisions in the Primorskiy Kray. 58-4 tank division was created on the base of the 3rd legkotankovoy brigade. During March 1941. the 42nd individual legkotankovaya brigade is preobrazovana into 122-1 tank regiment 239-1 of motorized division. On the base of this regiment and some other parts since the beginning of the war tank division was formed by 112-4. Corps had a regular quantity of tanks (more than 1000); however, in it not there was not one T -34 or KV."



But I have a list of every officer from CO down to Sanitation Officer for each Coprs/Div/Regt/Bn in the Far East. If I can just sort the mess out.

I'd like to find one for the Chinese but that will take even longer to translate.

[moses]

When I did the Russia only game it was originally to prove that Russia could not be easily defeated as Hirohito kept claiming. Every experienced player kept saying that Japan would be crushed and Hirohito kept insisting that it was easy. My PBEM partner was ill for a couple weeks so I did the test. Opps it was real easy.

So to Mogami, keep in mind that I was supporting the conventional wisdom at that point and not trying to slam the game as some seem to think. If you read that thread you will see.

With that in mind:

Its very important when doing your scenario to give Russia some ability to react to the initial Japanese deployment. This is what makes it so easy to conquer Russia. I can mass 15 divisions at any point I want and you can do nothing until I cross the border. Even with the current OOB it would be much more difficult to take Russia if they were able to see my guys lining up and just move their force to meet it. If you only change the OOB but do not give them some reaction ability then it just means that I have to bring a few more divisions.


Lots of ways to allow Russia reaction so I will not elaborate further.

[mogami]

Hi, I agree Japanese can still defeat Soviets. That is ok. But now it takes a lot more effort.
Before Japan faced 3x70AV Tank Bde
The correct OOB is 3x500AV Tank Div and 2x500 AV Mech Div
Also there is going to be 2x the Arty and 3x the engineers (combat I'm not counting the added construction engineers)
plus a airborne Bde (with transports)
A motorcycle Rgt (whoopie)

And the major units will be deployed inside supply cities with the fortified Divisions covering the frontier. (level 9 forts) currently the fortified Div are CD units with 108 inf sqds they should have 240 infantry sqds. The units are also missing items from TOE.


2xCL
22xDD
84xSubmarines
150xPC/PG
68xMSW
transports

[Milman]

plus a airborne Bde (with transports)

This is main reason why you don't want to attack Russia without big preperations and reinforcement to Kwangtung .

Edit: Great job Mogami .

[Toast]

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, I agree Japanese can still defeat Soviets. That is ok. But now it takes a lot more effort.

I have to disagree that it is "OK" if the Japanese can defeat the Soviets. This is completely un-historical. The Japanese Army was a light infantry army with no ability to defeat a modern well-equipped European-style army. If the game allows the Japanese to defeat the Soviets, then the simulation is severely flawed.

I think it would be interesting to see if the Japanese have a chance to defeat the Soviets if they can react to a Japanese build-up. The only way I know to simulate this is run a test game and have the Japanese encroach on Soveit territry and have a "house-rule" that no one can attack for 7 days after the encroachment. That will let the Soviets redeploy and set up a proper defense against the Japanese. Just as a test to see if the game model is OK, but the rule not allowing the Soviets to move until the Japanese invade give the Japanese an un-historical advantage. Just a thought.

I think allowing the Soviets to move within their territry and perform certain defensive missions is what might be called for here.

[moses]

Yeah thats my view. The OOB changes are fine but its still unfair that Japan can sneak up and blindside the soviet without him being able to react.

I don't think it should be imposible for Japan to win in Russia but it should be awful difficult. It should require great skill, a srcrew-up or two by the Russian, an influx of Japanese troops from other areas, Lots of casualties, a campaign that lasts at least 4 or 5 months, and some luck.

[mogami]

Hi, I said it is ok for the Japanese to defeat the Soviets. I didn't say it was easy or even realistic. And after I am done with my mod I'd like to see a Japanese player try it.

If the 5 Soviet Mech/Tank Units get together they form a force worth 2500 AV before any infantry or Arty or Engineer units are added.

(Thats about 8 Japanese Div worth to get 1-1)

The Soviets will be level 9 dug in and 100 prepared for the hex they are in.
The Soviet supply sources will be defended outside the hex so production of supply will continue

The Japanese have a little over 8k AV in Manchuria at start. The Soviets will have around that much (I'll post the actual total when I'm done) But it will all be at 100 percent dug in and supplied with a surplus of supply.




Edit Japan has 8869 AV on Dec 7
Soviets have 20x Rifle Div 300AV each (6k)
3xRifle Bde 150AV each (450)
3xTank Bde 70AV each (210)
2xMot Bde 110AV each (220)
50 AV in eng
6850 AV in combat units
1210 in CD
8060 total
New OB+ 2100 IN Tank/Mech
+ 200 In Airborne/Motorcycle
+ 200 In Engineer
9350 AV in combat units
1500 in Fortified Div
10850 total

So in my mod Soviets go from a minus 800AV to a plus 2000 AV

[Oleg Mastruko]

Mogami is this your "private mod" or will these changes be in official patch v1.5?

O.

[mogami]

Hi, Currently I'm doing it myself. Eventually there will be so many mods done by many people and before you start a game you just find one you like. (And then you find someone who agrees to play it)

I'm not trying to balance it. It is going to be a hard war for Japan. (And I intend on being Japan)

[Kereguelen]

ORIGINAL: Mogami

And the major units will be deployed inside supply cities with the fortified Divisions covering the frontier. (level 9 forts) currently the fortified Div are CD units with 108 inf sqds they should have 240 infantry sqds. The units are also missing items from TOE.

Hi,

not really sure if the Russian Fortified Regions ("Ukreplennye Raiyony") really had division strenght (or if all of them had this strenght). Have no OOB's for those suject to the Far Eastern front, but at least some along the border to Germany (or rather Poland) were somewhat weaker, having only 3 independent machine gun-artillery battalions ("otdelny pulemetno-artilleriiski batalonov"), each with about 650 men, 8 82mm Mortars, 8 50mm Mortars, 8 45mm ATG, 8 76mm Guns (later 12 76mm Guns), 32 LMG, 32 MMG. Maybe those along the border to Manchuria were stronger but I think there was no fixed strenght for the Fortified Regions (however they should not have many infantry squads as their strenght lay in their machine guns as their name implies; each machine gun platoon had only 13 soldiers, 2 LMG, 2 MMG, seems that due to their static function they did not need many men).

K

[ChezDaJez]

You have probably already seen this but Orbat.com has a Chinese OOB. It isn't very detailed (lacking commanders, TOE, etc). There is also a link on the site for a more detailed order of battle but I don't have access priveledges.

Here's the link:

http://orbat.com/site/history/historica ... a1941.html


CHez

[ChezDaJez]

I think it would be interesting to see if the Japanese have a chance to defeat the Soviets if they can react to a Japanese build-up. The only way I know to simulate this is run a test game and have the Japanese encroach on Soveit territry and have a "house-rule" that no one can attack for 7 days after the encroachment. That will let the Soviets redeploy and set up a proper defense against the Japanese. Just as a test to see if the game model is OK, but the rule not allowing the Soviets to move until the Japanese invade give the Japanese an un-historical advantage. Just a thought.

I don't think Hitler waited 7 days for the Russians to redeploy.[:D]

Actually, allowing the Allied player to decide where to place Russian troops at the start of a scenario might be a good idea. Also allowing the Russian to move 1-2 units each turn would allow him to respond in a limited way to any perceived buildup near Russian territory by the Japanese. Russian would never be allowed to cross the border until after war declared.

Chez

[2ndACR]

Hey Mogami,

How about tossing some of your Russian/China OOB enhancements towards the Mega Mod being worked on in the Scenario Forum. That would be a huge plus.

[ChezDaJez]

I'm not trying to balance it. It is going to be a hard war for Japan.

Just the way it should be! Historically possible but not likely.

Chez

[Toast]

ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez


I don't think Hitler waited 7 days for the Russians to redeploy.[:D]

My point here is that rules don't allow the Russians to move at all until activated. Their intelligence in Manchuria was very good and they would have known about any build-up of forces there by the Japanese. The only reason Stalin allowed Zhukov to pull forces from Siberia to the Moscow front was because of the excellant intelligence provided by Ricahrd Sorge. I think that historically, any re-delpoyments to Manchuria would have been detected by the Soviets and they would have responded by redeploying to better defensive positions. The only way to simulate this in the game is to activate them by crossing the border and then giving them time to deploy to the situation. It is gamey, I admit but given the constraint of the rules it is the only way to do it. I was mainly interested to see if the current OOB the Soviets have would be sufficient to fight the Jpanese to a standstill if they can prepare defensively. I don't know if that is the case but I think it is worth looking into.

[Andrew Brown]

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR

Hey Mogami,

How about tossing some of your Russian/China OOB enhancements towards the Mega Mod being worked on in the Scenario Forum. That would be a huge plus.

I second that.

Mogami - how reliable are the sources that you are using for the Soviet and Chinese OOB? Are you including or excluding the forces sent West when Germany invaded? I am especially interested if you have ANY OOB information for forces - Chinese or Soviet - in the Sinkiang area of Western China, because I have added this region into my map mod, but I wasn't able to find any information about forces in the area.

Any information you have could be very useful.

Andrew

[ChezDaJez]

I agree with your point. I just couldn't resist the tongue-in-cheek reply![;)]

As far as intelligence goes, Stalin had excellent intelligence giving him the time that the Germans would attack. He just chose to not believe it.

Chez