Don't worry my offensive will come probably much sooner than you think.
Again I have to wonder what the point of the mod is. If the goal is a totally static front why not just put everyone in static mode and not allow anything to move unless they pay PP's. If you really do get the thing set up where Japan can do nothing (and it looks like you'll get that done) and after a year China can do very little (I have real doubts) then what have you achieved? A really boring theater which nontheless requires significant attention from the players.
It would seem that the only players who will want this are players who don't want to be bothered by China. These players would just be better off agreeing not to fight in China. Then they wouldn't have to waste time on the theater.
Why are there no Chinese bases further than Sining?
Moderators: Joel Billings, wdolson, Don Bowen, mogami
RE: Mogami's last attempt.
You can't just ignore it because it becomes important much later in the war.
If you go down the house rules path, you get into a whole variety of other issues such as pulling troops out for other areas which leads to more house rules etc ... Japan has to at least defend what is there and prepare their wall to keep the bombers away from industry that they rely on to generate the supply to feed the boys.
If you go down the house rules path, you get into a whole variety of other issues such as pulling troops out for other areas which leads to more house rules etc ... Japan has to at least defend what is there and prepare their wall to keep the bombers away from industry that they rely on to generate the supply to feed the boys.
RE: Mogami's last attempt.
Hi, Moses your last post is very revealing.
It was exactly because that situation existed that the Pacific War was fought.
So any scenario that creates that situation has in fact done a great job.
Once again WITP is not about "The Great Land War in Asia"
But I think I will do a partial map mod first just to for that.
Once the patial map mod has Japanese players wishing they could cut off Chinese outside supply because they can't win the land war the "balance" will be right.
In this mod the Japanese will have full access to every unit in the Japanese OOB. He will have to pay PP to move units from Manchuria or Home Islands but everything in SAA will be put back into China Army. The entire IJAAF will be on hand as well as the bulk of the IJNAF.
Japan will get all the oil and resource it needs (it is still buying it)
Game will begin in June 1941. (The lines had not changed between then and Dec only Japan would ave had that much more time to conduct the first offensive since units would not be departing for the South)
It was exactly because that situation existed that the Pacific War was fought.
So any scenario that creates that situation has in fact done a great job.
Once again WITP is not about "The Great Land War in Asia"
But I think I will do a partial map mod first just to for that.
Once the patial map mod has Japanese players wishing they could cut off Chinese outside supply because they can't win the land war the "balance" will be right.
In this mod the Japanese will have full access to every unit in the Japanese OOB. He will have to pay PP to move units from Manchuria or Home Islands but everything in SAA will be put back into China Army. The entire IJAAF will be on hand as well as the bulk of the IJNAF.
Japan will get all the oil and resource it needs (it is still buying it)
Game will begin in June 1941. (The lines had not changed between then and Dec only Japan would ave had that much more time to conduct the first offensive since units would not be departing for the South)
I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!
RE: Mogami's last attempt.
I won't argue that its not accurate. I think you acknowledged in a previous post that the strentgh of the Chinese force is to an extent a designers decision. (I realize there are historical facts but we can interpet them differently).
I accept that your design decision is that Japan should not make any progress angianst a competant Chinese opponent. (Its your mod and you may well be correct in your historical assessment) Now I doubt that you can do this so that a Chinese player will not roll over Japan in late 42 and 43. Thats just based on my experience testing Chinea scenarios but again I may be wrong maybe you can do it.
I just commented that if you achieve this it's going to be a fairly non-eventful theater. Now again you may be correct that that was the historical situation and its your mod so OK. Still for players who want this they will have to do a lot of work each turn just to keep an eye on each other. And nothing much will happen for their effort.
Might just be easier to turn the thing off. Make everything static until someone pays PP's to move it.
Its your Mod. I would prefer something where Japan might make progress with a great plan, some luck and a willingness to pay in lives in a way which exceed what happened. In place of a static equilibrium I would prefer a more dynamic equilibrium where with two equal players you would expect a stalemate. But where it was possible for either side to do better.
The current scenario 15 is not that far from this point in my opinion which is why I have suggested changes which might move the scenario so that it was MORE difficult for Japan to make progress but not impossible.
I accept that your design decision is that Japan should not make any progress angianst a competant Chinese opponent. (Its your mod and you may well be correct in your historical assessment) Now I doubt that you can do this so that a Chinese player will not roll over Japan in late 42 and 43. Thats just based on my experience testing Chinea scenarios but again I may be wrong maybe you can do it.
I just commented that if you achieve this it's going to be a fairly non-eventful theater. Now again you may be correct that that was the historical situation and its your mod so OK. Still for players who want this they will have to do a lot of work each turn just to keep an eye on each other. And nothing much will happen for their effort.
Might just be easier to turn the thing off. Make everything static until someone pays PP's to move it.
Its your Mod. I would prefer something where Japan might make progress with a great plan, some luck and a willingness to pay in lives in a way which exceed what happened. In place of a static equilibrium I would prefer a more dynamic equilibrium where with two equal players you would expect a stalemate. But where it was possible for either side to do better.
The current scenario 15 is not that far from this point in my opinion which is why I have suggested changes which might move the scenario so that it was MORE difficult for Japan to make progress but not impossible.
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Bradley7735
- Posts: 2073
- Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2004 8:51 pm
RE: Mogami's last attempt.
I tried to go on the offensive in China (as the allies). I moved 3 engineer units from India to China. I moved hundreds of heavy and medium bombers from India to China.
I attacked Canton (4 IJN divisions plus support) with 75% of the available chinese forces and all the bombers. (playing the AI, you don't have to worry about being outflanked).
I couldn't make a dent in the forts at Canton in months of trying. If I were playing a human, I'd have lost ground in Burma (no heavies to use), and I'd have lost all my northern cities in China.
I think you could add several chinese divisions to the game and it wouldn't make a difference as to whether a competent allied player could roll over a competent Japan player. (but, I may suck at the game so maybe I'm wrong)
I attacked Canton (4 IJN divisions plus support) with 75% of the available chinese forces and all the bombers. (playing the AI, you don't have to worry about being outflanked).
I couldn't make a dent in the forts at Canton in months of trying. If I were playing a human, I'd have lost ground in Burma (no heavies to use), and I'd have lost all my northern cities in China.
I think you could add several chinese divisions to the game and it wouldn't make a difference as to whether a competent allied player could roll over a competent Japan player. (but, I may suck at the game so maybe I'm wrong)
The older I get, the better I was.
RE: Mogami's last attempt.
Hi, I really don't see where it is an improvement to change the improbable Japanese victory in China from taking a few months to taking 12 months and costing more.
I think the attempt should cost a lot and then fail. The reason I think that is because that is the result Japan had been getting for the last year in China and the result Japan got over the next 3 years in China.
Here is the situation in a nut shell. (I have to post often or my machine freezes and everyone know I am a terrible typist and need to edit everything a dozen times so hang in there)
I think it is very important that both sides understand what brought on the Pacific War that this game is about.
Please excuse me I don't mean to imply that I alone understand the correct way to design scenarios or games or interpet history.
IN 1930 China extended all the way to the in game Soviet border. The Japanese Army in Manchuria was there as a result of Japan having the rights to build and maintain a railway.
What we call China Army in the game was once a part of the Kwantung Army or Guandong Army. In the beginning it was just 1 regualar division and several Bn of Railroad guards.
This Army pretty much went "renagade" between 1928 and 1932. Taking over Manchuria and growing. It established it's own government in Manchuria.
As the Army grew in size it constantly occupied more area of China. The Chinese government and the international community never recognized the legality of any of Japan's expansion. The Japanese Army was out from under control of the Emperor and the civilian government in Japan.
Everyone is aware of the divided nature of China. The Soviet UNion was worried that Japan would attack their Far Eastern Area (and Japan did in 1938 and 1939 and was clobbered both times) So they began arming and training the Chinese to fight the Japanese to keep the Japanese occupied.
I'm not quite up on the politics that resulted un Germany training and equiping the Chinese but they did. Some 40 divisions and Chinese officers went to school in Germany. Chinese pilots were taught by the Luftwaffe. And the Chinese organized a Tank Bde along German lines (but with a strange assortment of vechicles)
I think the attempt should cost a lot and then fail. The reason I think that is because that is the result Japan had been getting for the last year in China and the result Japan got over the next 3 years in China.
Here is the situation in a nut shell. (I have to post often or my machine freezes and everyone know I am a terrible typist and need to edit everything a dozen times so hang in there)
I think it is very important that both sides understand what brought on the Pacific War that this game is about.
Please excuse me I don't mean to imply that I alone understand the correct way to design scenarios or games or interpet history.
IN 1930 China extended all the way to the in game Soviet border. The Japanese Army in Manchuria was there as a result of Japan having the rights to build and maintain a railway.
What we call China Army in the game was once a part of the Kwantung Army or Guandong Army. In the beginning it was just 1 regualar division and several Bn of Railroad guards.
This Army pretty much went "renagade" between 1928 and 1932. Taking over Manchuria and growing. It established it's own government in Manchuria.
As the Army grew in size it constantly occupied more area of China. The Chinese government and the international community never recognized the legality of any of Japan's expansion. The Japanese Army was out from under control of the Emperor and the civilian government in Japan.
Everyone is aware of the divided nature of China. The Soviet UNion was worried that Japan would attack their Far Eastern Area (and Japan did in 1938 and 1939 and was clobbered both times) So they began arming and training the Chinese to fight the Japanese to keep the Japanese occupied.
I'm not quite up on the politics that resulted un Germany training and equiping the Chinese but they did. Some 40 divisions and Chinese officers went to school in Germany. Chinese pilots were taught by the Luftwaffe. And the Chinese organized a Tank Bde along German lines (but with a strange assortment of vechicles)
I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!
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Oliver Heindorf
- Posts: 1911
- Joined: Wed May 01, 2002 2:49 am
- Location: Hamburg/Deutschland
RE: Mogami's last attempt.
I wonder that in pac war china was not a problem at all ( or I missed something on it OK ) and here it is a problem. why not totally removing the cities, units and everything else and make a big hole of nothing there ? make an amount of supplies/fuel/resources/oil/HI/unit replacement pool/pilot and aircraft replacement pool drawn from the pools and all problems are gone. you simulate the china war as a monster eating up your supplies.
as human player, you can add supplies spended there, the game simualtes a progress in the war and gives you back political poiunts and victory points. more abstract but better useable. of course I have no idea which would be the right amout of what...just my idea how I would solve it if it would be my problem.
as human player, you can add supplies spended there, the game simualtes a progress in the war and gives you back political poiunts and victory points. more abstract but better useable. of course I have no idea which would be the right amout of what...just my idea how I would solve it if it would be my problem.
RE: Mogami's last attempt.
Hi, China was a joke in Pacwar but both sides had to pay to activate units each turn.
Why not make a game that actually reflect reality. Whether you like the reality or not?
Now do you want Uncle Moggie to finish his story about how the war came to be?
Why not make a game that actually reflect reality. Whether you like the reality or not?
Now do you want Uncle Moggie to finish his story about how the war came to be?
I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!
RE: Mogami's last attempt.
I couldn't make a dent in the forts at Canton in months of trying. If I were playing a human, I'd have lost ground in Burma (no heavies to use), and I'd have lost all my northern cities in China.
Did you go around Canton and block it's supply or were you just bashing your head on the wall hoping for them to run out?
RE: Mogami's last attempt.
Hi, More important. Were your units in supply? Not were they out but were they showing red?
I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!
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Kwik E Mart
- Posts: 2447
- Joined: Wed Jul 21, 2004 10:42 pm
RE: Mogami's last attempt.
ramble on...
mogami,
i apologize if this has been posted elsewhere, but i am having trouble grasping the situation with the chinese theatre.
is there any concesus on how the japanese would do in china without stripping other theatres for units? would it model history? or is it necessary for japan to strip other theatres to achieve "spectacular" results. if so, there *should* be an allied grand strategy that counters this. counter attack in malaysia? invade indochina? i'm just throwing out thoughts here...haven't studied any of these. i guess what i'm getting at is that if japan can trounce china by using *only* troops that should be guarding the russian border, and russia cannot be activated to counter this, then the game appears to be broken, IMO. perhaps the strategy of dumping every available ground unit into china is an "unbeatable" japanese strategy...i just find it difficult to imagine that drastic steps would not have been taken historically if china was on the brink of elimination, steps that are not currently available to the allied player in the game "as is"...
ramble off...
mogami,
i apologize if this has been posted elsewhere, but i am having trouble grasping the situation with the chinese theatre.
is there any concesus on how the japanese would do in china without stripping other theatres for units? would it model history? or is it necessary for japan to strip other theatres to achieve "spectacular" results. if so, there *should* be an allied grand strategy that counters this. counter attack in malaysia? invade indochina? i'm just throwing out thoughts here...haven't studied any of these. i guess what i'm getting at is that if japan can trounce china by using *only* troops that should be guarding the russian border, and russia cannot be activated to counter this, then the game appears to be broken, IMO. perhaps the strategy of dumping every available ground unit into china is an "unbeatable" japanese strategy...i just find it difficult to imagine that drastic steps would not have been taken historically if china was on the brink of elimination, steps that are not currently available to the allied player in the game "as is"...
ramble off...
Kirk Lazarus: I know who I am. I'm the dude playin' the dude, disguised as another dude!
Ron Swanson: Clear alcohols are for rich women on diets.
Ron Swanson: Clear alcohols are for rich women on diets.
RE: Mogami's last attempt.
Hi, Well it depends on the Japanese player.
Is he the type that will send units from manchuria to China without paying the PP cost to change HQ?
The really crafty Japanese player does not attack China right off. He sends units from China to Manchuria and wipes out the Soviets. Just wipes them off the map. Now he can send the entire 9k Manchurian Army to China and with it wipe China off the map. Then both Armies now free from anything to do just diddy bop over through Burma and wipe India off the Map.
Now this brilliant Japanese player has a massive force to use against the remaining Allies and nothing to worry about on the mainland from India to Siberia.
By 1 jan 1943 he should have about 20-1 point ratio and be immune to Allied counter attacks.
Is he the type that will send units from manchuria to China without paying the PP cost to change HQ?
The really crafty Japanese player does not attack China right off. He sends units from China to Manchuria and wipes out the Soviets. Just wipes them off the map. Now he can send the entire 9k Manchurian Army to China and with it wipe China off the map. Then both Armies now free from anything to do just diddy bop over through Burma and wipe India off the Map.
Now this brilliant Japanese player has a massive force to use against the remaining Allies and nothing to worry about on the mainland from India to Siberia.
By 1 jan 1943 he should have about 20-1 point ratio and be immune to Allied counter attacks.
I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!
RE: Mogami's last attempt.
Hi, I really don't see where it is an improvement to change the improbable Japanese victory in China from taking a few months to taking 12 months and costing more.
I think the attempt should cost a lot and then fail. The reason I think that is because that is the result Japan had been getting for the last year in China and the result Japan got over the next 3 years in China.
Agree almost completely. Except I think it should cost a lot and fail most of the time. I do think that if Japan takes risks, plays well, and is willing to take the losses there should be a chance of winning.
RE: Mogami's last attempt.
HI, OK must be some new math I am missing here. 70million fight 1 billion in a war of attrition and win?
As long as China keeps getting outside supplies China will keep on fighting. Losing men does not impact the number the Chinese have in the field if they keep getting material to send more.
The Japanese did the math and said "We have to stop the Chinese resupply"
Their answer and actions brought on the general Pacific War that resulted in their defeat and removal from China. And that is exactly what China planned from 1937 on.
As long as China keeps getting outside supplies China will keep on fighting. Losing men does not impact the number the Chinese have in the field if they keep getting material to send more.
The Japanese did the math and said "We have to stop the Chinese resupply"
Their answer and actions brought on the general Pacific War that resulted in their defeat and removal from China. And that is exactly what China planned from 1937 on.
I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!
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Bradley7735
- Posts: 2073
- Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2004 8:51 pm
RE: Mogami's last attempt.
Did you go around Canton and block it's supply or were you just bashing your head on the wall hoping for them to run out?
Hi, More important. Were your units in supply? Not were they out but were they showing red?
My units were in supply (not in the red). And, I was banging my head against a wall. I wasn't playing as I would vs a human. Even a moron would have out flanked me and taken most of my bases. I was just curious if it could be done. I eventually did take Canton, but it took a long time.
But, even though I'm not the best strategist, it would take a LOT of men to root out 4 Jap divisions behind 9 forts. I don't think a competent allied player could really roll over Japan if they were playing someone even half as competent. (in China)
I think giving China better defence in the early war would probably solve a lot of problems. It would require very skilled players to take land in China (Jap players), and I dont think the allied player would be able to roll over japan in the later part of the war.
bc
The older I get, the better I was.
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Hornblower
- Posts: 1361
- Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 1:02 am
- Location: New York'er relocated to Chicago
RE: Mogami's last attempt.
ORIGINAL: Kwik E Mart
ramble on...
mogami,
i apologize if this has been posted elsewhere, but i am having trouble grasping the situation with the chinese theatre.
is there any concesus on how the japanese would do in china without stripping other theatres for units? would it model history? or is it necessary for japan to strip other theatres to achieve "spectacular" results. if so, there *should* be an allied grand strategy that counters this. counter attack in malaysia? invade indochina? i'm just throwing out thoughts here...haven't studied any of these. i guess what i'm getting at is that if japan can trounce china by using *only* troops that should be guarding the russian border, and russia cannot be activated to counter this, then the game appears to be broken, IMO. perhaps the strategy of dumping every available ground unit into china is an "unbeatable" japanese strategy...i just find it difficult to imagine that drastic steps would not have been taken historically if china was on the brink of elimination, steps that are not currently available to the allied player in the game "as is"...
ramble off...
Japanese player has to keep a certain level of assult points in Manchuko (sp?) or else the Soviets declare war..
RE: Mogami's last attempt.
I agree with moses on the flaw in just raising the Chinese OOB with alot of units will result in China doing a reverse rush on japan and roll them right out of China.
Mogami,yes there are alot of units not represented in the Chinese OOb,but alot were under local warlords and only nominally were under Nationalist control. Yes under various conditions these boys would fight the japs but the "warlord" would try and preserve his forces. The idea of "static forces',while being easier for the japanese to overcome would do 2 things. 1)Be more representative of what the Chinese were able to actually command in the field. 2) Provide an entrenched obstacle that would slowdown the japanese and make him work for it!
Mogami,you moses and most probably all the rest of us agree China is too easy as it stands now for the Japanese in scenario 15. We need to correct this and can do it so its both more historical but still playable.
Mogami,yes there are alot of units not represented in the Chinese OOb,but alot were under local warlords and only nominally were under Nationalist control. Yes under various conditions these boys would fight the japs but the "warlord" would try and preserve his forces. The idea of "static forces',while being easier for the japanese to overcome would do 2 things. 1)Be more representative of what the Chinese were able to actually command in the field. 2) Provide an entrenched obstacle that would slowdown the japanese and make him work for it!
Mogami,you moses and most probably all the rest of us agree China is too easy as it stands now for the Japanese in scenario 15. We need to correct this and can do it so its both more historical but still playable.
RE: Mogami's last attempt.
Hi, I'd like to have a few tests run before I draw any conclusions on the impact of changes to Chinese and Soviet OOB.
But it is my intent to make it more likely for China to run over Japan then for japan to run over the Chinese.
One was not done because the forces could not do it. The other was not done because the forces felt they had better things to do.
So what you need is when you play PBEM have a wild Japanese player out to conquer the world and an Allied player who just wants China to keep what it starts with.
Did I mention I'm removing all the VP for cities?
Did I mention I'm making all Chinese cities provide some supply?
Did I mention I'm redeploying Chinese units?
(other cities on map will also provide supply. The local rice harvest, fishing and stuff like that. Cities are not worth VP but they still might be important.
Did I mention that both sides begin dug in level 9? So if you move you lose a lot of defense that will take months to get back.
But it is my intent to make it more likely for China to run over Japan then for japan to run over the Chinese.
One was not done because the forces could not do it. The other was not done because the forces felt they had better things to do.
So what you need is when you play PBEM have a wild Japanese player out to conquer the world and an Allied player who just wants China to keep what it starts with.
Did I mention I'm removing all the VP for cities?
Did I mention I'm making all Chinese cities provide some supply?
Did I mention I'm redeploying Chinese units?
(other cities on map will also provide supply. The local rice harvest, fishing and stuff like that. Cities are not worth VP but they still might be important.
Did I mention that both sides begin dug in level 9? So if you move you lose a lot of defense that will take months to get back.
I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!
RE: Mogami's last attempt.
Did i mention <being respectful,i still wanna have that beer> that if you make all the chinese units fully mobile you throw historical right out the window!
RE: Mogami's last attempt.
HI, OK must be some new math I am missing here. 70million fight 1 billion in a war of attrition and win?
Lots of historical examples where large populations lose wars to smaller ones. I don't think I need to insult you by making a list.
But here's how I'm looking at it. Say you were making a game simulating the german/Russian war. Now some say its impossible for germany to win and some say if such and such had been done differently germany could have won. Now you can say that history show that Russia won and thats it. In your game russia is going to win no matter what.
But is that a very good game? I thinks its better in a game if a range of plausable possibilities can happen. I would not want to play war in russia game if victory is impossible. I would argue that it should be difficult but not imposible. Now you can come back and say well Russia won which proves it. And we go round and round.