Japanese grand strategy

[WiTP_Dude]

Most of these machine guns were very light weapons. They had very few heavy machine guns. I think a lot of them were "homemade" quality too.

[mogami]

Hi, I know the Chinese went from bad to good. If anyone can tell me how that 3.8 million was actually deployed I would use that data. In the end it won't help the Japanese much.

[Tophat]

Thats true if its a 3.8 million man monolithic force united in one goal,it ain't. Nationalists and Communists are saving some of the best equitment for eachother when tthe Fate of china will be decided. Warlords are looking to preserve their forces in being and aquiring better equitment to enhance their position and importance.
So the nationalists advance on the japanese with one eye......other eye on the communits and the eyes in the back of their heads on the "loyal" warlords to make sure they follow and support the drive against the japs!
Sounds like a winning and effective command structure to me! Roll those japs outs china!

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: Tophat

i'm sorry,but there is noway possible that any uniform table of organization or equitment allotment was inplace in any of the Chinese formations!
Some of these chinese divisions Gen.StilWell describes were battalions called divisions so as not to disgrace or put in lesser regard the little tinpot Warlord incharge of them! Are you taking any of this into account?

Love the using of Divisions in France before D-day....look at some of those staic divisions organization level.....it'd be lavish in equitment compared to anumber of chinese formations!

You've hit on one of the most frustraiting truths about the Chinese Army(s) in this war.
There was no such thing as a fixed OB. Especially among the units commanded by
Chiang's "Warlord" allies. A 10,000 man force could be a "Division" of 3 3,000 man
Regiments; or a "Corps" of 3 3,000 man "Divisions"; on occasion even an "Army" of
3 3,000 man "Corps". Mostly it seemed to depend on the "ego trip" of the Comman-
ding Officer, and what "Rank" he wanted to claim.

About the best a game can do is create "Average" units based on a percentage of
overall strength. I suggest "percentage" because of the built-in inefficiancy of such
a poligot conglomeration. Possibly as many as 1 in 5 of the "men" on Chinese "ration
strength" was either a figment of the commander's imagination or so young or old as
to be worthless for the fighting front. A "Total Chinese Strength" of 3.9 million men
might translate into 3.1 million actual soldiers.

On the good side, the "engineering strength" could be enormous (for simpler tasks, at
any rate) by the simple expediant of drafting a few hundred thousand local peasants.
Fortifying a Chinese City or town for the Chinese could be a pretty rapid process. And
with a population base of half a billion, Japanese "control" was never more than super-
ficial. They could protect key installations and supply routes, but every time they ag-
grivated the local peasantry they sent another flock of new recruits off to join Chaing
or Mao. It was this never-ending supply of potential soldiers that made China a "Tar
Baby" the Japanese couldn't conquer and couldn't get unstuck from.

Only a portion of this force had much offensive capability, but the sheer mass provides
a lot of defensive capability. China had almost 100,000,000 men of military age to draw
on---more than the entire population of Japan. That's a statistic that's hard to get
around---especially for the Japanese Army which is only "modern" in comparison to
the Chinese; and which was now also involved in a conflict with much of the rest of
the world.

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, One major change in deployent I've already doen was to place the 2 Soviets div that were located there back on top of the Soviet oil center on the Island they share with Japan that before Japan only had to waltz up to capture or land a single SNLF ontop of.
Now there are 500AV there. Also while the border is manned by light units the Japanese can push back with ease behind this weak front is a stack of Soviets over 1k Av next to a city with another 1k AV worth of Soviets next to a city with another 1k AV worth of Soviets. before the border and both cioties could be taken in a single turn using a frontal attack and amph landing on the empty cities cutting off a large number of Soviets. Now the Amph attack fails and the frontal attack runs right into a mass of Soviets. Because the cities fell so fast Soviet airpower was not a factor. Now it is.
The first turn the Japanese Attack they have to hope they damage the 84 Soviet subs in port. Because they will be at sea the following turn. (what if bad weather stops the port attack?)
There are no Soviet cities unmanned and the airfields all have units on them to prevent 1 turn captures via paratroops.
We will have to have a test where the japanese attack to see impact of the changes but i don't think the japanese can attack the Soviets now without a massive influx of troops from outside manchuria and a much longer commitment in time.

The border is not held in strength but the japanese need to reduce the forts or achive 11 to 1 odds to take the hex. (250AV dug in level 9)

Fixing the obvious current problems will certainly help; but I must still maintain that for
the sake of the GAME the Allied Player should be permitted to "play" the Russians.
If you "fix" the deployment, you solve the current problems. But out there somewhere
is a Japanese player hunting dilligently for a "loophole" that will allow him to use the
system to bend reality again. Let the Allied Player have the responsibility of dealing
with this. If he sees the Japanese moving to mass against the USSR, he can counter-
mass the Soviets to meet the threat. Again, give both sides a realistic representation
of their historic capabilities, then let the players play the game.

For one example of historic restraints, the Japanese Army was simply incapable of
mounting a major offensive in a Siberian winter. They might be able to move some
troops (an infantry army has a lot of flexibility in this regard), but supporting equipment
and supply? Forget it. The Russians had had no choice but to learn to live and work
in their climate, but aside from the Skandinavians and the Canucks no one else had
needed to face up to and overcome such problems.

[Tomo]

IJA had 355 infantry divisions, 4 tank divisions, 4 anti air divisions and 13 air divisions.
About 1/3 infantry divisions are only number(existed only on paper) though.

[Halsey]

I've also brought this up a few times Mike. Just give the Russians the ability to move their troops in Russia. This allows them to counter aggressive gestures by the Japanese by the use of their mobility. Then they wouldn't need so much beefing up by mods. As long as the Russian Army remains static, the IJA will always be able to exploit the fixed deployment. I believe this one has fallen on deaf ears...[:(]

[moses]

You are both correct.

Two reasons why I was able to defeat Russia in less than a month (mop up takes month or two more.

1.) I could mass right next to the russian forces step into B (city in the middle of the front) and before russia had any ability to react retreat all the forces there leading to a progressive collapse of the russian front.

2.) The bloodlessness of the game for the attacker vs. the carnage inflicted on the defender. After the couple seeming bloody battles to take B (going from the combat reports) the defending russian forces are truly decimated with almost no remaining combat capability. (low morale, high fatigue and disruption, 30+% elements killed with a large part of the rest disabled. Japans units wre barely scratched. Literally nothing killed. A few disabled squads, a little fatigue. They just plow right on without have to pause. Russia has no chance to recover.

[AmiralLaurent]

My mod to stop the "using the edge of the map" method would be to create bases on the edge of the map over the Soviet railway and west of Karachi. Put there huge units of Fort types, so that Japanese player can never take them (because they would have 30000 assault values) and the Allied player can't use them either (because they will be of the fort type and can't move). Create each turn supplies in this base just to feed the units there and transfer the supply bonus now in Karachi and this Soviet base I can't remember.

Then all reinforcements arrive in these new bases rather than on Karachi or Soviet bases.

So Allied units will have a place to retreat and rebuild even if Siberia or India are lost. Japanese will have to keep units here as Allied armies will be gathering there. And slowly building supplies to allow a new offensive.

As for China, i have still to find if v1.4 is still allowing the Japanese to crush them. As the whole country is on the map, I won't create a huge Fort unit on the rear. But maybe Fort units in some/many Chinese base, simulating the units Tchang-Hai Chek was keeping in reserve for the Civil War once the Japanese were gone. We don't want the Japanese to crush the Chine and don't want the other way too.

Just started a PBEM on v1.4 with a home rule imposing me to garnison all road/railways and cities, but allowing me to use thirds of Mongolian Cav Div to do so. End result of this rule is to have only about a dozen INF divisions available on the frontline.
By the way, I gave orders to a brigade to go to Chengting and one to leave Chengting. The latter was faster than the former and left one day before the other arrive. Partisans use it and next turn I saw that airfield was damaged at 43%. I then checked the town and found that they had also damaged 107 of the 240 HI points of the town !!
These commies are serious guys....

[AmiralLaurent]

ORIGINAL: moses

You are both correct.

Two reasons why I was able to defeat Russia in less than a month (mop up takes month or two more.

1.) I could mass right next to the russian forces step into B (city in the middle of the front) and before russia had any ability to react retreat all the forces there leading to a progressive collapse of the russian front.

2.) The bloodlessness of the game for the attacker vs. the carnage inflicted on the defender. After the couple seeming bloody battles to take B (going from the combat reports) the defending russian forces are truly decimated with almost no remaining combat capability. (low morale, high fatigue and disruption, 30+% elements killed with a large part of the rest disabled. Japans units wre barely scratched. Literally nothing killed. A few disabled squads, a little fatigue. They just plow right on without have to pause. Russia has no chance to recover.

Wonder if this can be done in a PBEM. Yes you will still be able to take the town but I think they key in land campain for the defender is to retreat before being forced out, so losses are egal for both sides. Troops will then go to another fortified position, until attacker is too disabled to continue or supply is running out.

I think this is the best thing to do in this game but of course AI did not that at all.

[moses]

It will be no different in PBEM because russia is not allowed to move until I am on him. That's what makes the conclusions so clear in this case. If Russia could redeploy a bit then he could at least try different strategies and he might very well be able to defend the country. As it is before russia can't do anything I've already retreated his first stack.

I would doubt anyone would want to play this scenario as Russia in PBEM. You really have no options. If you could move before the attack it might be interesting.

[moses]

BTW the russians are very strong as is. When Hirohito first proposed his russia first strategy he was attacked from every angle by those who claimed that the Russian forces would crush Japan easily. Games from early playtesting were comonly referenced as proof. "So and so tried this way back when and the Russians rolled over him".

The problem is that the Russian is not allowed to react and so Japan gets an unearned free shot. Then with that free shot he is able to destroy a critical russian army at no cost in casualties to himself. It goes downhill for the russian from that point.

Also I was able to redeploy 5 China area divisions to Russia in about 3 weeks. They moved all that way and were fully ready for combat in 3 weeks!! Isn't that amazing.

[mogami]

Hi, It is not amazing that 5 Div can move that far. However if we limit units crossing to other HQ to only those that pay the PP it will not happen in 1941/42.
It's not like the troops walk all that way.

[moses]

Really!! You don't thinks its surprising that 5 divisions redeploy across all that distance during the winter and are ready for offensive action in 3 weeks!! Man you navy guys.[:D]

OK maybe if you planned it all out months in advance. Had all the supplies staged and had supplies and fuel pts in place along the route. The railheads are all preped and ready for the massive surge. Everyone has good maps and knows exactly where to go when they get there. I still don't think so but maybe. It would have to be a brilliantly conducted operation.

Anyway the russians would see the preparations months in advance. (Unless you postulate an equally brilliant deception operation). They could react a little bit. If the russian gets one week to redeploy then I cannot defeat them under the OOB in patch 1.3. (At least not quickly).

BTW before anyone gets the wrong idea. Russia cannot be defeated by Japan's starting forces. (At least not quickly). We're talking about the modified Hirohito plan where Japan shifts in 10 divisions.

With the starting forces Japan may be able to take a city by concentrating everything they have. But Russia will then have chances to counterattack and hold on. Give Russia a chance to react to Japan's concentration of force and Japan will be stopped cold at the frontier.

[ChezDaJez]

Hi Mogami,

Here's something to consider. Don't know any of the specifics but found this on http://www.american-partisan.com/cols/2 ... 1/0209.htm

Quote:
In early November 1941, Stalin decided to move the Red Army in Siberia to the Front. It was a risky move, as the Japanese were on the move in the Pacific and he didn’t know where they were headed. Had Japan invaded the now-defenseless Siberia, history might have been changed. Nevertheless, the move allowed Stalin to throw one hundred divisions against the German lines near Moscow on 6 December 1941. The German lines dissolved, and thousands of German soldiers were taken prisoner. Unquote.

The WitP order of battle seems to reflect this accurately. Will your mod reflect this also?

Chez

[mogami]

Hi, The distance from Wuhan to the Soviet border in 3 weeks comes out to around 3-4 miles per hour. Say 1600 miles/21days/24hours=3.17mph
Say 2000 miles/21days/24hours=3.98mph

Just does not look that tough to do.

[moses]

If your driving a boat its no problem at all. On land its harder. I can walk 4MPH but not for 24 Hrs straight and not for 21 days in a row. Common now you're just messing with me.

A train is the only possible way to do it. Its not as fast as you think. If you put 5 divisions in Missouri and tried to rail them to Washington it would probably take you more than three weeks. Its a lot of work loading and unloading troops. Then you have to match the troops with the equipment. Then you have to get to the front and figure out what the heck is going on.

Moving 5 divisions 2000 miles by rail in the Russian winter and launching a full scale attack in three weeks would be a phenominal accomplishment.

[Gen.Hoepner]

How many days did Von Mainstein need to evacuate the South Army Group B from Caucasus after the fall of Stalingrad? That one, if i remember correctly, was probably the best logistical accomplishement of ever in war times, so, that example could give us the max limit out of which we cannot push this simulation. Still it would be quite strange if the Japs had the same ability of 1943 germans

[Charles2222]

ORIGINAL: Gen.Hoepner

How many days did Von Mainstein need to evacuate the South Army Group B from Caucasus after the fall of Stalingrad? That one, if i remember correctly, was probably the best logistical accomplishement of ever in war times, so, that example could give us the max limit out of which we cannot push this simulation. Still it would be quite strange if the Japs had the same ability of 1943 germans

I vaguely recall that a documentary I viewed was of the opinion that the Siberian troops marched on foot to Moscow. Now I don't know if this was the entire Siberian relief effort that was that quick or just the quickest elements.

If there is any truth to it being on foot, you would to assume they were at least the ski remnants of that army. If it were the entire army they were talking about it's probably exaggeration. One of those sort of things where the first elements come up to the Moscow Front commnder Zhukov and tell him the relief has arrived, when in fact they probably took many more weeks for all of them to arrive.

If a decent sized truck column came into my city for relief I would probably regard that as their arriving, but realizing full well that as time passed there would be more of them. If nothing else you could at least figure that the vast majority would get there to actually do some defending of Moscow should the Germans get closer, because as long as they were on their way they would have relatively free travel while the Germans would have to do at least some sporadic fighting enroute. Even without the Siberians, considering the determination to hold Moscow, the USSR probably would have held it for at least until the middle of January, giving the Siberians at least enough time to hold on to the last portions of the city and take it back.

Come to think of it, while they were the Siberian Army, I'm not sure I ever heard anyone ever proclaim with certainty where they came from. Maybe they were well due west of their usual positions when they started? Sort of a position inbetween in order to not be too far from either front (which ever body of troops are credited with making it to defend Moscow anyway).

[mogami]

Hi, In the American Civil War in 1863 on broken down tracks with broken down engines and having to go the long way the Confenderacy was able to move 2 Divisions of Longstreets Corps over 900 miles to Tennesse. The move was ordered on Sept 6 and the last unit arrived on Sept 18.
Unplanned, and over a very poor transport system. Of course 5 Japanese Div are more then 5 times as much but the rail system they moved over was built just for them.
Trains don't care what time it is. Look at the map. No part of the trip is over anything but railroad. A military Railroad built by the Japanese Army.