Fuel - Looking for conclusion

[Zakhal()]

Originally posted by Adnan Meshuggi:
Maybe for the US player it is interesting to limit the jap fuel consumption, but for me as a mostly „jap“ player, (well they lost the campaign and i like to perform better) it would be stupid, maybe even a gamestopper

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As for myself i would enjoy to play japs with the extra challenge of fuel-shortage. Especially against AI, which usually is always lacking.

[moore4807]

just my $.02 worth,
Currently in Pacwar- we have an abbreviated system for convoys delivering fuel-supplies-etc. We also have a way to increase these items by specific TF's... are we changing the system???

If I want Rabaul or Truk to be fueled up unhistorically then I should have to create and use my TK's in TF (or by plane). The only question I can see is TK capacity and the port capabilities to handle it. (subject to tank farm capacity, bombing etc.)or the TK as a sitting duck in-port, dispensing fuel and occupying port space... That would make most of this point redundant-ie; 15k ton tanker arriving = 15k fuel to port.

I acknowledge that while it does allow for super bases, it also makes a juicy target for bombing AND once I find out where the ships are fueling - look out, here come de subs!

just my thoughts
Jim

[Supervisor]

I concur with Joel Billings in his comments above. I've been playing a long campaign as the Japanese and you are not going to be able to operate out of Truk as is feared by some here. The Japanese have a very hard time repairing normal wear and tear to their fleets. Also, before losses to Allied air power, subs and surface, you've got barely enough merchant marine to deploy forces forward from Truk and keep them supplied.

In the long campaigns, the dynamics of the situation work heavily against the Japanese. No matter how well you do tactically and operationally, the Allies build and build and build. In the short campaigns fuel supplies at Truck will be the least of Japanese logistical nightmares. I'm not sure the Japanese need any more handicaps.

[Paul Goodman]

Jim: I think you already know this, but I am confused by your first paragraph. Anything in PACWAR is totally irrelevant to this game and the WitP game to follow.

I think I am now in the Mogami camp. His analysis is excellent. However, I have one caveat. We all acknowledge the excellence of Frank's "Guadalcanal". The book dwells at length on ammunition and food for the Japanese garrison. This occurs over and over in the book. However, only once does he mention fuel as a consideration in anything other than a tactical matter (duration of task forces at sea without tanker refueling) and that could be construed either way. It seems to me that, if fuel was a significant factor, it would have been brought out in this book.


I also don't think a Truk expressway for capital ships would work. Too many excellent opportunities for ambush by submarine and aircraft carriers.

Paul

[Adnan Meshuggi]

Originally posted by Zakhal():


As for myself i would enjoy to play japs with the extra challenge of fuel-shortage. Especially against AI, which usually is always lacking.

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True, but i think we should have a choice and i don´t like the idea of calculating my fuel, maybe if the game can make some calculating and show me the aspects, fine... but i think, this is much difficultier to program as a preselection how much fuel you want for your scenario....

I too, want some scenarios with less fuel, because they are harder to play. BUT (big but) i also want scenarios with unlimited or enough fuel (in TRUK)...

And reading most posts here it sound for me like the jap shouldn´t move at all (okay i overestimate it <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> )

[mogami]

Greetings, I will try not to get nitpicky. We have seen that the 2 BB 4CA TF can run down 3 times per month (45k tons fuel) at 16 knots except for the high speed runs while in air range of Gaudalcanal. If the game engine runs the TF at a higher speed while on transit several side effects will occur. More fuel will be used and more time will be saved. (meaning it could occur more often) Wear and tear on the ships is to be expected. I served 10 years at sea and rarely were every ship board system at 100 percent. (the US Navy works around this problem with redundant systems on board if the main is down go to the secondary) I personally know nothing about Japanese shipboard maintenance. But from looking at the records of movement for the heavy units during WW2 it seems they went to Truk because the IJN had stationed their repair ships there. The repair ships are logically also going to be there during the game since the Japanese player would hardly choose to risk them down at Rabaul, in range of Allied air. Truk remains the logical choice therefore for the heavy units. Truk only has a 2500 ton dry dock so the large ships when they needed time in dry dock have to return to their home base. (all Japanese ships have a home base) Kure being the only one capable of handling the super BB's (where they were built) and only one of them at a time could be in dry dock.
If I was the Japanese commander during the high intensity period, I would only worry about system damage in 2 areas. Main gunnery and propulsion. Every thing can be repaired after the show is over. If the offensive fails there will naturally be a period of inactivity again while the material for the next try stockpiles.
It is a big ocean and the sub/CV threat has several things mitigating in favor of the IJN. The US would not know when it was to start. (I am not speaking of an unlimited fuel scenario but one where the Japanese player has taken the time to stockpile his needs before commencing) Trying to cover all the approaches all the time the US ships would also suffer system damage (perhaps for nothing) subs would have to take station close to the target area (unless there are enough US subs in theater to cordon a vast area they might miss the IJN moving. Since they would have to be in the target area they would have the problem of this is when the IJN are moving at top speed.
I think that in the actual event the IJN planned to operate the heavy units from Truk.
The 4 fast BB (Kongo, Hiei, Kirishima, Haruna)
can base out of Raubal (they are really Battle Cruisers but I promised not to nitpick) But they also would need to return to Japan for any yard work. Well, actually it appears everything but a few class of DD do. Do the play testers have a steady stream of ships coming and going during the long scenarios or are repair facilities on board handling it?

[Dunedain]

This issue of speed of TF's is interesting. Does the player have any control over
how fast a TF moves? There could be many situations on longer voyages where the
player wants the TF to move at best speed, due to time being a factor in the operation.
Other times, the player may want the TF to move at it's most efficient cruising
speed to keep fuel consumption to a minimum, so the TF can extend it's operational
range as far as possible without the need to refuel.

Of course, the TF would automatically accelerate to battle speed when any enemy
ships or aircraft were spotted or combat operations begun. But it would be very
useful for the player to be able to specify what speed for the TF to travel at
at during certain legs of the voyage, both on the outbound and return parts of
the trip.

Also, it would be important for the player to know what the optimum cruising
speed for each ship type was, so he could make an informed decision about what
speed he wants the TF to sail at.

[moore4807]

Paul,
I agree that this game is not a Pacwar update... but in my mind the game system is certainly relevant because we are graduating to a new game platform on the same subject (Pacific War) by the same producer (G.G.)... UV and WitP are sight unseen by me , so my suggestion was in response to Joel's initial post to the fuel and possible changes to the process with only Pacwar as my experience to guide me here.

Mogami's posts are certainly impressive, factual and knowledgeable. I do not dispute anything about cruising ranges and consumption factors with a seafaring man (VBG), however the "average" wargamer probably will not want to engage in slide rule computation as did the real commanders did in WWII. My choice is for a click of the mouse switch and let the computer handle it!
The problem I see with all of this is the theory here. Using Truk and fuel as an example, ask the Who/What/When/Where/Why questions... If you make a base line using these factors, someone will ALWAYS find something wrong, disputed, or incorrect. Just look at the OOB's/updates for SPWaW! (Ver 7.1 and counting- VBG) Now allow me as a player to alter the historical geography or dynamics of this fuel question, we go right back into the hopeless quest of satisfying everyone (= no one...)
So whats already there as a (old) system may not be broke, need a little tweaking -sure but playablility is the name of the game-hence my suggestion...
Still just my $.02's worth err... maybe a quarter now.
VBG
Jim