Skip Mac and Monty. Where are McClellan's Fanboys?

[EUBanana]

Well... lemme rephrase then

...do you think Lee was as good a general as his reputation demands, or was he just competent compared to Union generals?

Or was he really more like average, given he fumbled the ball when faced with some opposition that was actually competent.

The competent Union generals seemed focused on the west, where the incompetent Rebel generals were, funny that. [;)]

[moses]

Lee held off a superior Union army for four years. You have to assume he knew what he was doing. As for Getty'sburg I suspect that he just thought that the Union Army was beaten after the first two days. A crazy decision if you had a birds eye view of the union position that day. Maybe not so crazy seen through the fog of war and all to human wishful thinking.

[Tom Hunter]

I don't think Picketts charge was a crazy decision except (perhaps) in retrospect.

Lee was a great general. Not as good as some of the modern Confederate sympathizers would make him but still one of the better generals in history.

I re-read the dual biography of Lee and Grant recently one of the things that struck me is that after the wilderness both Grant and Lee were very upset. The were both used to fighting people they knew they were going to beat, and beat very badly. When Lee relized that he was not going to beat Grant he was very upset, and he really did know that he was going to lose the war to Grant shortly after they first met in the field. Grant was also very disturbed because the manuevers and generalship that had smashed his opponents in the past did not work on Lee. Everyone else who fought Grant lost in weeks or months, there was never a long period where the end was not in sight. It took Grant almost a year to beat Lee and for a considerable part of that year Grant could not tell exactley how he was going to win, he was just running on the faith that he would.

I find these two fascinating if you have not guessed.

[anarchyintheuk]

I don't think Lee's decision was that crazy. AP Hill's corps was pretty much used up. Longstreet was still sulking and after Lee had seen how slow his corps was to attack the day before, I don't think he trusted him much. Had Early's corps done any fighting prior to this? Take that into consideration and throw in a serious case of the scoots and it was almost inevitable. [8|]

[Hornblower]

I still maintain that he honestly felt one more push would end the war. He had, or so he thought, the Union army on the ropes

[mogami]

ORIGINAL: anarchyintheuk

I don't think Lee's decision was that crazy. AP Hill's corps was pretty much used up. Longstreet was still sulking and after Lee had seen how slow his corps was to attack the day before, I don't think he trusted him much. Had Early's corps done any fighting prior to this? Take that into consideration and throw in a serious case of the scoots and it was almost inevitable. [8|]

Hi, Where does the notion that Longstreet sulked at Gettysburg come from? From Confederate magzines in the 1880's. Lee never mentioned this in his reports or after the war.
Picketts division was not on the field on the 2nd Day. Just who wrecked Sickles Corps?
Have you ever noticed what time Longstreets Corps was provided water? How far they had to move prior to the attacks on the 2nd day.

Lee had around 75,000 men prior to the battle. The AOP was close to 100,000
Once the AOP began to dig in the battle was over.
Lee had been present on the field at Fredericksburg. There should have been no mystery concenring what the result of a frontal attack would be.
Day 3 at Gettysburg is a repeat of Malvern Hill (which was simply a repeat of the previous days)

In all prior offensive battles Lee had always divided the Army and used part to pin and the rest to flank the enemy. It was his SOP. He did not even try at Gettysburg. Stuart is always blamed for this but Lee retained at least a brigade of Cav with the Army the entire campaign. Check what it was doing on days 1,2,3 (nothing) Stuart arrived on day 2 and was sent to flank the AOP without infantry support (and was stopped by Custer)

I think Lee was too tired and excited to stop and consider alternate courses. Since no one in the South would ever critise him other persons had to be at fault. By that time Longstreet was a Repubican.

[DrewMatrix]

do you think Lee was as good a general as his reputation demands

I think Lee was a superb general. He was one kind of superb general (or at least in the situation he found himself he was superb for that situation).

He was willing to take enormous risks to put his opponent off balance and have a chance to win. He was fighting from a position of severe numeric and equipment/materiel inferiority. He had to take those risks. (Like Yamamoto if you think about it).

Eisenhower or Zhuvov didn't fight like that (nor did Grant). They had an edge, and pressed that edge relentlessly. They were all superb generals too, because they did _not_ take huge risks.

When you have an edge, you run the war to push that edge relentlessly. That is good generalship.

When you have a severe disadvantage you take great risks to completely reconfigure the whole state of that theater of the war. That is good generalship too when you are at a disadvantage. But would be nuts if you had the numerical edge.

For Zhukov to pull some wierd "Seven Days" maneuver in front of Berlin (dividing his troops and trying something really tricky) would have been a mistake.

What would Lee have done on the other side (running the Army of the Potomac)? No one will ever know but I would suspect he would acquit himself well but in a rather different manner.

[CSN]

Little Mac did indeed know how good his soldiers were,, he simply did not have the disposition of (Grant the Butcher). Remember that Grant drank himself to sleep everynight--McClennan did not, and would have had nightmares about such savagery as 7K killed in one-half hour, as happened at Cold Harbour.

The war was not won in the East (people) it was won in the West..Which ponders the question..What if idiots like Bragg, were never in charge-- and N.B Forrest were??

Heh, heh,, I love to stir the pot!!!

[mogami]

Hi, You are aware that
1. Grant never commanded the AOP (Meade commanded it from Gettysburg to the end)
2. Grant did not drink himself to sleep every night. Grant could not stand the sight of blood
3. The ratio of force between AOP and ANV was smaller after Gettyburg to end then it had been prior to Gettysburg. (Mac had a larger ratio then Meade did)
4. The larger loss rates (for both Armies) after Grant assumed overall command did not relfect anything other then the fact that Grant fought the war everyday. The war became a truely modern war in that it was no longer a series of "campaign seasons producing a great battle every year" But one where the opposing forces were in constant contact.

[pasternakski]

Amazing that the name Thomas Jackson is not mentioned in this thread.

[captskillet]

Lee was counting on (too heavily it seems) his Arty bombardment to soften up the Union lines enough for the attack to be a success. A heavy rain the night before had softened up the ground and rendered the several hour arty preperation pretty much useless. I dont know of too many Generals that could have lasted as long as Lee did vs the kind of odds in men and material that he faced.

[captskillet]

Thomas Jackson overated.....you must be joking....have you heard of the Valley Campaign in 1862?

[pasternakski]

ORIGINAL: captskillet

Thomas Jackson overated.....you must be joking....have you heard of the Valley Campaign in 1862?

I mention General Jackson because his survival might have been crucial to Confederate victory. Where do you get this "overrated" thing?

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: anarchyintheuk

I don't think Lee's decision was that crazy. AP Hill's corps was pretty much used up. Longstreet was still sulking and after Lee had seen how slow his corps was to attack the day before, I don't think he trusted him much. Had Early's corps done any fighting prior to this? Take that into consideration and throw in a serious case of the scoots and it was almost inevitable. [8|]

You need to bone up on your history.....Early was a Division Commander in Ewell's Corps
And while it is referred to as Pickets Charge, the bulk of the troops were from Heth's
and Pender's Divisions of Hill's Corps (battered on Day One, but out of the line and
resting on Day Two).....Picket's boys provided the spearhead, and pushed the farthest.

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: CSN

Little Mac did indeed know how good his soldiers were,, he simply did not have the disposition of (Grant the Butcher). Remember that Grant drank himself to sleep everynight--McClennan did not, and would have had nightmares about such savagery as 7K killed in one-half hour, as happened at Cold Harbour.

You call Grant a "Butcher"..., but if he had been in command of the Army of the Potomac
at Sharpsburg the war would have been over in 1863.....How many hundred thousand
lives would that have saved on both sides?....Lincoln was right when he heard rumors
of Grant's drinking and quipped "find out what brand he drinks and send a barrel to my
other Generals"....."I can't spare this man..., he fights!" is a terribly revealing statement
of Lincoln's frustration with his Eastern Generals who kept getting themselves beaten
without even committing much of their army.....What he wouldn't have given for a
Helmut von Molke and a Prussian General Staff.

[von Murrin]

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, Where does the notion that Longstreet sulked at Gettysburg come from? From Confederate magzines in the 1880's. Lee never mentioned this in his reports or after the war.
Picketts division was not on the field on the 2nd Day. Just who wrecked Sickles Corps?
Have you ever noticed what time Longstreets Corps was provided water? How far they had to move prior to the attacks on the 2nd day.

It comes from the moderate delay between the intended attack time and the moment when Longstreet actually went in. Technically, he disobeyed orders as he was supposed to go right in in coordination with the attack on Culp's Hill. He spent several hours fishing for a way to make a flank hit, but finding none, just charged headlong and smoked good old Temporary Insanity Dan.[:D]

All said, the delay meant nothing. There was no Confederate Corps ever made that was going to take the Union left, and the other attack was delayed anyways. You are entirely correct in that Longstreet's flank-finding escapade was used to beat him up, to the glorification of others, post-war.

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Picketts division was not on the field on the 2nd Day. Just who wrecked Sickles Corps?
Have you ever noticed what time Longstreets Corps was provided water? How far they had to move prior to the attacks on the 2nd day.

Who wrecked Sickles Corps? That would be McLaw's Division, with help from half
of Hood's and a part of Anderson's (Hill's Corps)

[captskillet]

I guess I made an assumption I shouldn't have made Paster since the original thread was about 'overrated' generals....'scuse my ignorance. I certainly think the course of the battle at Gettysburg would have gone differently with Stonewall in charge of 2nd Corps. I also think that not having Stuart around for the balance of the battle robbed Lee of valuable 'recon & intel' gathering!

[rtrapasso]

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, You are aware that
1. Grant never commanded the AOP (Meade commanded it from Gettysburg to the end)
2. Grant did not drink himself to sleep every night. Grant could not stand the sight of blood

According to one biography of Grant, Grant was not drinking during the war (except on one occasion where he was known to have gotten drunk after a large victory).

Grant may not have even been that much of a drinker. He reputation was pre-war, and mostly seems to have come from his drinking out west, and his condition when he was farming (in Missouri, iirc). During his farming career, he often would show up looking jaundiced, sweating, and with the shakes. He was almost definitely suffering from malaria at this time, but when his ex-army buddies saw him, and they remembered his drinking out west, it got him the reputation as a confirmed alcoholic. More detailed investigation showed he was not consuming any alcohol during this period.

Certainly after the war when he was president, alcoholic beverages were routinely served at the white house and Grant consumed them. There isn't much to support any claim that he routinely got drunk (then, or during the war) - and a confirmed alcoholic is going to go this route if he is routinely consuming alcohol. Much of the reputation seems to be from detractors picking up on the pre-war rumors and reports and spreading them.

[pasternakski]

ORIGINAL: captskillet

I guess I made an assumption I shouldn't have made Paster since the original thread was about 'overrated' generals....'scuse my ignorance. I certainly think the course of the battle at Gettysburg would have gone differently with Stonewall in charge of 2nd Corps. I also think that not having Stuart around for the balance of the battle robbed Lee of valuable 'recon & intel' gathering!

I probably wasn' being clear, as usual - no apology needed.

Several writers have talked about what went wrong with the Army of Northern Virginia before Gettysburg. Some posit that Lee was another Wellington who could handle only so many troops on an extended offensive campaign (losing track of Stuart is cited as an example of this loss of control). Some say that the army had grown too large to still be the "hammer and anvil" two wing formation that was so successful in the early battles, and the breakdown into three corps significantly attenuated its combat effectiveness, particularly on offense. Some others note Jackson's loss as the beginning of the end. Several blend these various items into an overall critique.

Who knows? I guess that's why we play the games ...