I getting tired of playing games with different house rules all the time. I would like to get a updated list of house rules that most wir players can agree on.
any ideas what to trash, keep or add?
new house rules
RE: new house rules
These are the (more or less) standard home rules, based in Lorenzo’s home rules.
- About the Finn home rule: this rule is necessary to reflect the political situation of Finland. Too, if the Finns attack Leningrad, the city will fall even in 43 scenario. The Finn government didńt want a total war against Soviets, only the Carelian itsm.
- About the air attack home rule: is the easier way to avoid to down the readiness with repeated little air attacks.
- The Hungarian/Romanian home rule dońt affect the game, it́s optional. The German player can choose to play with it or not.
- The tank home rule(11), is needed to play historically. This way, it́s more difficult to surround Leningrad and advance into the Pripet marshes. The tanks need clear terrain to advance at full speed!
1) A corps can only make one change of its commanding HQ per turn, and always before receive extra supply.
2) To move a corps it must have at least one division sized unit in it.
3) A single hex only can be air attacked, bombed, air supplied or interdicted 3 times a turn.
4) An armored corps/army must have at least one Panzer/Tank, Motorized, PanzerGrenadier (PZG), Mechanized or Cavalry division in it to plot 5 squares of movement. If an armored corps does not have at least one mobile division in it, it can only plot 2 squares as if it were an infantry corps/army.
5) The West and Italian Front HQs must have at least two fighter air groups and one bomber air group in each at all times. The air groups can be set on training mode. The West Front air groups can be placed in OKW, but if not there then they must be in the West Front HQ.
6) All Soviet HQ's within 3 squares of the eastern edge of the map, are considered to be "in Siberia" and can't be attacked by player directed air missions, such as an airfield attacks. The air groups in these HQ's can't fight however, they must be in training mode only. This rule no longer applies once the HQ has one or more enemy corps adjacent to it.
7) Hungarian, Rumanian, and Finnish units can't be sent to the West or Italian Front HQs. Italian units can't be sent to the West Front HQ.
8) If an isolated corps, currently at Supply Level 0, receives air supply, it can only move or attack towards its own front line, i.e., it can not continue attacking towards the enemy rear area.
9) Hungarian and Rumanian units can't be in the same corps (optional to the German player, if he wishes accurate historical game)
10) Finnish forces can't attack Leningrad, they can launch no other attacks, ground or air, on Leningrad itself, nor attack or occupy the adjacent hexes. If the Germans take Leningrad, Moscow or Stalingrad, Finnish forces are allowed to enter Soviet territory and engage in combat but they must remain within 6 squares of Leningrad.
11) If a Pz korp, Tank army or Mech army enters in swamp or mountain, must stop its advance. Under snow or blizzard conditions, the swamps are frozen and are clear terrain.
- About the Finn home rule: this rule is necessary to reflect the political situation of Finland. Too, if the Finns attack Leningrad, the city will fall even in 43 scenario. The Finn government didńt want a total war against Soviets, only the Carelian itsm.
- About the air attack home rule: is the easier way to avoid to down the readiness with repeated little air attacks.
- The Hungarian/Romanian home rule dońt affect the game, it́s optional. The German player can choose to play with it or not.
- The tank home rule(11), is needed to play historically. This way, it́s more difficult to surround Leningrad and advance into the Pripet marshes. The tanks need clear terrain to advance at full speed!
1) A corps can only make one change of its commanding HQ per turn, and always before receive extra supply.
2) To move a corps it must have at least one division sized unit in it.
3) A single hex only can be air attacked, bombed, air supplied or interdicted 3 times a turn.
4) An armored corps/army must have at least one Panzer/Tank, Motorized, PanzerGrenadier (PZG), Mechanized or Cavalry division in it to plot 5 squares of movement. If an armored corps does not have at least one mobile division in it, it can only plot 2 squares as if it were an infantry corps/army.
5) The West and Italian Front HQs must have at least two fighter air groups and one bomber air group in each at all times. The air groups can be set on training mode. The West Front air groups can be placed in OKW, but if not there then they must be in the West Front HQ.
6) All Soviet HQ's within 3 squares of the eastern edge of the map, are considered to be "in Siberia" and can't be attacked by player directed air missions, such as an airfield attacks. The air groups in these HQ's can't fight however, they must be in training mode only. This rule no longer applies once the HQ has one or more enemy corps adjacent to it.
7) Hungarian, Rumanian, and Finnish units can't be sent to the West or Italian Front HQs. Italian units can't be sent to the West Front HQ.
8) If an isolated corps, currently at Supply Level 0, receives air supply, it can only move or attack towards its own front line, i.e., it can not continue attacking towards the enemy rear area.
9) Hungarian and Rumanian units can't be in the same corps (optional to the German player, if he wishes accurate historical game)
10) Finnish forces can't attack Leningrad, they can launch no other attacks, ground or air, on Leningrad itself, nor attack or occupy the adjacent hexes. If the Germans take Leningrad, Moscow or Stalingrad, Finnish forces are allowed to enter Soviet territory and engage in combat but they must remain within 6 squares of Leningrad.
11) If a Pz korp, Tank army or Mech army enters in swamp or mountain, must stop its advance. Under snow or blizzard conditions, the swamps are frozen and are clear terrain.
RE: new house rules
Can you give details on why rule #2 is necessary
"Power always thinks it has a great soul and vast views beyond the comprehension of the weak" - John Adams
RE: new house rules
It seems to me, that some years ago, the PEBM players agreed this home rule to avoid a lot of “fake” units.
Usually, I dońt play using too much “fake” units, so this home rule is not too useful to me. But sometimes, my supply lines were cut by one unit with only two guns, and this is not realistic.
In my opinion, this is not a main home rule, but prevents some abuses.
Usually, I dońt play using too much “fake” units, so this home rule is not too useful to me. But sometimes, my supply lines were cut by one unit with only two guns, and this is not realistic.
In my opinion, this is not a main home rule, but prevents some abuses.
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JagdFlanker
- Posts: 744
- Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2003 9:18 pm
- Location: Miramichi, Canada
RE: new house rules
1) Put your personal HQ rule here!
2) No HQ may launch more than two (ground) interdiction attacks per turn. No single enemy unit may be (ground) interdicted more than 3 times per turn.
3) To plot more than 2 hexes of movement an armored Korps/Corps must be composed of AT LEAST TWO Panzer, Tank, Motorized, PanzerGrenadier (PZG), Mechanized or Cavalry Divisions FOR EVERY ONE non-mobile (Infantry) Division. If an armored Korps containing regular infantry divisions does not have the minimum amount of mobile Divisions in it, it may only plot 2 hexes as if it were an infantry Korps/Army.
4) All Soviet HQ's within 3 squares of the eastern edge of the map, are considered to be "beyond the Urals" and MAY NOT be attacked by player directed air missions, such as an airfield attacks. The air groups in these HQ's can't fight however, they must be in training mode only. This rule no longer applies once the HQ has one or more enemy corps adjacent to it.
5) No Hungarian, Rumanian, or Finnish units may be sent to the West or Italian Front HQs. No Italian units may be sent to the West Front HQ.
6) Finnish forces MAY NOT attack Leningrad (40,7) or it’s supply hex (41,6). The Soviets are required to garrison Leningrad with MINIMUM 3 Divisions even though Finland may not attack. If the Germans capture Leningrad, Finnish forces are allowed to enter Soviet territory and engage in combat but they must remain on or above the 12th parallel.
7) (3.3 only) No player may have more than 1 heavy tank factory for every 2 light or medium tank factories.
these are the rules i personally like using.
1) i would be in the vast minority in regards to HQ rules - i don't like any. the main reason is the soviet summer 1941 and german winter 1941/42 in 3.3 have a hard enough time keeping their readiness up to prevent shattering so i think to keep the game competitive they both need all the supply they have at their disposal, especially during these times. i however would consider implementing HQ rules around May 1942 when 'silly shattering season' is over!
2) decent entrenchment takes many turns to 'earn', and airstrikes are a quick and easy way to rapidly reduce a lot of entrenchment in 1 turn. with that in mind i prefer a limit on interdiction strikes only - all other strikes are limitless. in my opinion airstrikes should not affect entrenchment in any way! the 2 airstrikes per HQ prevents "airforce centralization"
3) mobile divisions should consist mainly of mobile units to be used as such!
6) slightly different finnish rules.
i find the 2 fighter and 1 bomber wings in italy/germany is unnecisary - if you want to leave berlin wide open for strategic bombing go right ahead!
the isolated korps thing i think is only for old versions of the game when dropping supplies raised the supply level of the hex. now i believe dropping supplies by air only supplies the unit, not the hex.
#11 above is new - although i do agree with it to an extent, i think the problem is that the readiness penalty is too low to enter those hexes. the penalty is -30% mech/-50% for non-mech, which is reversed as far as i'm concerned! i'm sure it is much easier to walk through a swamp than to drive a tank through it!
2) No HQ may launch more than two (ground) interdiction attacks per turn. No single enemy unit may be (ground) interdicted more than 3 times per turn.
3) To plot more than 2 hexes of movement an armored Korps/Corps must be composed of AT LEAST TWO Panzer, Tank, Motorized, PanzerGrenadier (PZG), Mechanized or Cavalry Divisions FOR EVERY ONE non-mobile (Infantry) Division. If an armored Korps containing regular infantry divisions does not have the minimum amount of mobile Divisions in it, it may only plot 2 hexes as if it were an infantry Korps/Army.
4) All Soviet HQ's within 3 squares of the eastern edge of the map, are considered to be "beyond the Urals" and MAY NOT be attacked by player directed air missions, such as an airfield attacks. The air groups in these HQ's can't fight however, they must be in training mode only. This rule no longer applies once the HQ has one or more enemy corps adjacent to it.
5) No Hungarian, Rumanian, or Finnish units may be sent to the West or Italian Front HQs. No Italian units may be sent to the West Front HQ.
6) Finnish forces MAY NOT attack Leningrad (40,7) or it’s supply hex (41,6). The Soviets are required to garrison Leningrad with MINIMUM 3 Divisions even though Finland may not attack. If the Germans capture Leningrad, Finnish forces are allowed to enter Soviet territory and engage in combat but they must remain on or above the 12th parallel.
7) (3.3 only) No player may have more than 1 heavy tank factory for every 2 light or medium tank factories.
these are the rules i personally like using.
1) i would be in the vast minority in regards to HQ rules - i don't like any. the main reason is the soviet summer 1941 and german winter 1941/42 in 3.3 have a hard enough time keeping their readiness up to prevent shattering so i think to keep the game competitive they both need all the supply they have at their disposal, especially during these times. i however would consider implementing HQ rules around May 1942 when 'silly shattering season' is over!
2) decent entrenchment takes many turns to 'earn', and airstrikes are a quick and easy way to rapidly reduce a lot of entrenchment in 1 turn. with that in mind i prefer a limit on interdiction strikes only - all other strikes are limitless. in my opinion airstrikes should not affect entrenchment in any way! the 2 airstrikes per HQ prevents "airforce centralization"
3) mobile divisions should consist mainly of mobile units to be used as such!
6) slightly different finnish rules.
i find the 2 fighter and 1 bomber wings in italy/germany is unnecisary - if you want to leave berlin wide open for strategic bombing go right ahead!
the isolated korps thing i think is only for old versions of the game when dropping supplies raised the supply level of the hex. now i believe dropping supplies by air only supplies the unit, not the hex.
#11 above is new - although i do agree with it to an extent, i think the problem is that the readiness penalty is too low to enter those hexes. the penalty is -30% mech/-50% for non-mech, which is reversed as far as i'm concerned! i'm sure it is much easier to walk through a swamp than to drive a tank through it!
RE: new house rules
ORIGINAL: Bidea
But sometimes, my supply lines were cut by one unit with only two guns, and this is not realistic.
If you don't have a division sized unit in it, the game won't let you plot with a corps. So all this rule does is to prohibit you from moving behind your lines that corps with only flak in it that the Germans have in June '41. Notwithstanding that it's a totally useless interdiction, you can still place a new corps and transfer into it, with the same effect.
I think this is a useless rule and should be scrapped for the sake of simplicity.
"Power always thinks it has a great soul and vast views beyond the comprehension of the weak" - John Adams
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m39 white death
- Posts: 33
- Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2004 7:41 pm
RE: new house rules
Lorenzo's rules are pretty good. The only changes I would make would be to make it a little more difficult to take Moscow in '41. I would keep all Lorenzo's rules, except as modified below:
1. The Soviet player may make multiple changes of HQ's in '41, allowing units special supply and still be attached to a HQ with some OP points left;
2. German production can not be altered in '41. The German player must use historical production until Jan 42, at which time he can produce what he wants;
3. The Soviets may use stacked HQ's in defense of Moscow and its supply lines in '41;
4. No German Pzkrps can have more than 2 Pzdivs and 2 Motorized divisions in '41 and '42.
These rules will allow a good Soviet player the opportunity to hold off the Germans in '41, at least around Moscow. It is by no means a sure bet, but it is historical and does make it much harder for an expert German player to knock off a Soviet player in '41. I've use the HQ defense around Moscow to stop most good German players, and I've refined it to the point that it is very, very hard to take Moscow in '41, but not impossible.
I think what is ultimately the downfall of the game is the "jacked" German Pzkrp. By putting 3 Pzdivs, a motorized div, and 4 stug batts in a Pzkrps, and putting 4 or 5 of these monsters line abreast, you will simply obliterate everything in your path. The Soviets simply can't put enough combat value into a hex to stop them. By limiting the German's ability to "jack" their Pzkrps until '43, the Soviets will have some air support to slow them down and their own "jacked" Tank armies, giving some parity.
All of these suggestions are an attempt to balance the game in '41 and '42 where an expert German player will always win under the current Lorenzo house rules. Some of the better German players have actually forgotten what its like to even play the game into '42 and beyond because they've blown out the Soviets in '41 in game after game.
1. The Soviet player may make multiple changes of HQ's in '41, allowing units special supply and still be attached to a HQ with some OP points left;
2. German production can not be altered in '41. The German player must use historical production until Jan 42, at which time he can produce what he wants;
3. The Soviets may use stacked HQ's in defense of Moscow and its supply lines in '41;
4. No German Pzkrps can have more than 2 Pzdivs and 2 Motorized divisions in '41 and '42.
These rules will allow a good Soviet player the opportunity to hold off the Germans in '41, at least around Moscow. It is by no means a sure bet, but it is historical and does make it much harder for an expert German player to knock off a Soviet player in '41. I've use the HQ defense around Moscow to stop most good German players, and I've refined it to the point that it is very, very hard to take Moscow in '41, but not impossible.
I think what is ultimately the downfall of the game is the "jacked" German Pzkrp. By putting 3 Pzdivs, a motorized div, and 4 stug batts in a Pzkrps, and putting 4 or 5 of these monsters line abreast, you will simply obliterate everything in your path. The Soviets simply can't put enough combat value into a hex to stop them. By limiting the German's ability to "jack" their Pzkrps until '43, the Soviets will have some air support to slow them down and their own "jacked" Tank armies, giving some parity.
All of these suggestions are an attempt to balance the game in '41 and '42 where an expert German player will always win under the current Lorenzo house rules. Some of the better German players have actually forgotten what its like to even play the game into '42 and beyond because they've blown out the Soviets in '41 in game after game.
RE: new house rules
About interdiction air attacks:
To limit the interdiction attacks of an HQ to 2, maintain the problem of the loss of entrenchment and readiness because a lot of interdiction attacks on a single unit. Better limit the number of interdiction attacks on a single unit.
If people agree dońt limit the airport, supply or strategic missions, to me is ok.
About HQ supply:
I think that two years ago it was a lot of discussions about “mules” HQ́s. Please, it was enough. I played with HQ́s “mules” (HQ́s which only mission were to give extra supply), but no more, because the players agreed to avoid this.
About aircrafts in West and Italian front:
Ok, I vote to delete this home rule. As less home rules, better to all.
About “defensive” HQs:
(HQs placed in strategic places and with a lot of units in them).
I dońt agree, I think that this is an abuse of the program. Simply, you cańt place in an hex a dozen of tank divisions without supply problems and without give a great objective to the interdiction attacks. Every HQ, must be moved two hexes to rearguard in the next turn, if an enemy unit is near it.
About limit the number of Pz divisions in one single Pz korp: I´ve not experience about this.
About swamps: the tanks simply can´t run along swamps. Even I doubt that they could enten in them!
To limit the interdiction attacks of an HQ to 2, maintain the problem of the loss of entrenchment and readiness because a lot of interdiction attacks on a single unit. Better limit the number of interdiction attacks on a single unit.
If people agree dońt limit the airport, supply or strategic missions, to me is ok.
About HQ supply:
I think that two years ago it was a lot of discussions about “mules” HQ́s. Please, it was enough. I played with HQ́s “mules” (HQ́s which only mission were to give extra supply), but no more, because the players agreed to avoid this.
About aircrafts in West and Italian front:
Ok, I vote to delete this home rule. As less home rules, better to all.
About “defensive” HQs:
(HQs placed in strategic places and with a lot of units in them).
I dońt agree, I think that this is an abuse of the program. Simply, you cańt place in an hex a dozen of tank divisions without supply problems and without give a great objective to the interdiction attacks. Every HQ, must be moved two hexes to rearguard in the next turn, if an enemy unit is near it.
About limit the number of Pz divisions in one single Pz korp: I´ve not experience about this.
About swamps: the tanks simply can´t run along swamps. Even I doubt that they could enten in them!
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DavidFaust
- Posts: 888
- Joined: Sat Sep 04, 2004 8:30 am
- Location: Australia
RE: new house rules
1) A corps can only change its commanding HQ before it receive extra supply.
2) No HQ may launch more than two missions of the same type, per turn. No single enemy unit may be attacked more than 3 times per turn.
3) To plot more than 2 hexes of movement an armored Korps/Corps must be composed of AT LEAST TWO Panzer, Tank, Motorized, PanzerGrenadier (PZG), Mechanized or Cavalry Divisions FOR EVERY ONE non-mobile (Infantry) Division. If an armored Korps containing regular infantry divisions does not have the minimum amount of mobile Divisions in it, it may only plot 2 hexes as if it were an infantry Korps/Army.
4) All Soviet HQ's within 3 squares of the eastern edge of the map, are considered to be "beyond the Urals" and MAY NOT be attacked by player directed air missions, such as an airfield attacks. The air groups in these HQ's can't fight however, they must be in training mode only. This rule no longer applies once the HQ has one or more enemy korps within 7 hexes to it.
5) No Hungarian, Rumanian, or Finnish units may be sent to the West or Italian Front HQs. No Italian units may be sent to the West Front HQ.
6) Finnish forces MAY NOT attack Leningrad (40,7) or it’s supply hex (41,6). The Soviets are required to garrison Leningrad with MINIMUM 3 Divisions even though Finland may not attack. If the Germans capture Leningrad, Finnish forces are allowed to enter Soviet territory and engage in combat but they must remain on or above the 12th parallel.
7) (3.3 only) No player may have more than 1 heavy tank factory for every 2 light or medium tank factories.
8) If a korp enters a swamp or mountain hex, it must stop its advance. Under snow or blizzard conditions, the swamps are frozen and are clear terrain.
9) No changing the chains of command
10) A HQ that is in contact with a enemy korps and is in supply, must withdraw
2) No HQ may launch more than two missions of the same type, per turn. No single enemy unit may be attacked more than 3 times per turn.
3) To plot more than 2 hexes of movement an armored Korps/Corps must be composed of AT LEAST TWO Panzer, Tank, Motorized, PanzerGrenadier (PZG), Mechanized or Cavalry Divisions FOR EVERY ONE non-mobile (Infantry) Division. If an armored Korps containing regular infantry divisions does not have the minimum amount of mobile Divisions in it, it may only plot 2 hexes as if it were an infantry Korps/Army.
4) All Soviet HQ's within 3 squares of the eastern edge of the map, are considered to be "beyond the Urals" and MAY NOT be attacked by player directed air missions, such as an airfield attacks. The air groups in these HQ's can't fight however, they must be in training mode only. This rule no longer applies once the HQ has one or more enemy korps within 7 hexes to it.
5) No Hungarian, Rumanian, or Finnish units may be sent to the West or Italian Front HQs. No Italian units may be sent to the West Front HQ.
6) Finnish forces MAY NOT attack Leningrad (40,7) or it’s supply hex (41,6). The Soviets are required to garrison Leningrad with MINIMUM 3 Divisions even though Finland may not attack. If the Germans capture Leningrad, Finnish forces are allowed to enter Soviet territory and engage in combat but they must remain on or above the 12th parallel.
7) (3.3 only) No player may have more than 1 heavy tank factory for every 2 light or medium tank factories.
8) If a korp enters a swamp or mountain hex, it must stop its advance. Under snow or blizzard conditions, the swamps are frozen and are clear terrain.
9) No changing the chains of command
10) A HQ that is in contact with a enemy korps and is in supply, must withdraw
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DavidFaust
- Posts: 888
- Joined: Sat Sep 04, 2004 8:30 am
- Location: Australia
RE: new house rules
What do we think of these as WIR new house rules?
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JagdFlanker
- Posts: 744
- Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2003 9:18 pm
- Location: Miramichi, Canada
RE: new house rules
to be honest, i think the 10) HQ rules might be unnecisary. sure you can stack up a pile of units in them, but they don't recover supply fast and if you surround them they can't plot out - all units within are automatically dead! and they don't entrench! without real proof that they are actually powerful i'm not sure they should be outlawed. any testimony? and out of curiousity, what would be the definition of a 'key point'?
RE: new house rules
Well, I played a game or two against a player who likes to use an HQ as defensive unit. The key point was the hex between Moscow and the swamps of southwest.
Finally, I won. But I was not able to force the retreat of this HQ.
After the end of the game, Íve experiment a little, playing the last turn several times. After been bombed by the entire Lutwaffe, and after been attacked by SIX Pz korps at maximum readiness, commanded by the better German commanders, with plenty of OPs and backed by all bombers... the HQ still resisted without retreat.
Ím not sure about what was in this HQ, but at least 10 - 12 tank armies.
In the HQ, the units have more supply, are not affected by excess of units, and the interdiction attacks only damages one unit, and not too much.
I think that this is unhistorical. How give supply to 10 (or may be more) tank armies in a single hex? The Lutwaffe will be happy with such targets...
Such HQ́s are impregnable. But they are impossible. And in an historic game, we cańt play things impossible, can we?
Finally, I won. But I was not able to force the retreat of this HQ.
After the end of the game, Íve experiment a little, playing the last turn several times. After been bombed by the entire Lutwaffe, and after been attacked by SIX Pz korps at maximum readiness, commanded by the better German commanders, with plenty of OPs and backed by all bombers... the HQ still resisted without retreat.
Ím not sure about what was in this HQ, but at least 10 - 12 tank armies.
In the HQ, the units have more supply, are not affected by excess of units, and the interdiction attacks only damages one unit, and not too much.
I think that this is unhistorical. How give supply to 10 (or may be more) tank armies in a single hex? The Lutwaffe will be happy with such targets...
Such HQ́s are impregnable. But they are impossible. And in an historic game, we cańt play things impossible, can we?
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DavidFaust
- Posts: 888
- Joined: Sat Sep 04, 2004 8:30 am
- Location: Australia
RE: new house rules
I agree with what you are saying but this tactic is not being used in a single hq only. it is being used in a line of about 8 hq's long, running east along the rail line behind Moscow.
The units are immune to air attacks and gain readines and reinforcements alot faster. My tank losses were about 80% and my squad losses were twice as heavy as russia's trying to assult these monsters.
The units are immune to air attacks and gain readines and reinforcements alot faster. My tank losses were about 80% and my squad losses were twice as heavy as russia's trying to assult these monsters.
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JagdFlanker
- Posts: 744
- Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2003 9:18 pm
- Location: Miramichi, Canada
RE: new house rules
i'm convinced! it's something i havn't experimented with, but i thought you could just airstrike the hell out of them if you wanted. only hitting 1 division is too crazy!
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m39 white death
- Posts: 33
- Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2004 7:41 pm
RE: new house rules
Well, I'm the guy who developed the HQ defensive strategy, and I'll tell you why. German players were jacking up their Pzkrps beyond historical levels to the point that no defense could stop them. Putting 3 Pzdivs, a motorized div, and 4 stug battallions in a Pzkrp guarantees success...there is no way to defend against this. The soviets can't put enough combat value in a hex to stop four or five of of these monsters, line abreast, from smashing everything in their wake. Add to this the complete air superiority of the axis in '41 and the game is simply not winnable, let alone survivable, as the Russians. In fact, its no longer worth playing, its that bad, and all experienced WIR grognards know this.
I have no problem with guys developing new strategies and tactics to win. Sure, jack up that Pzkrps, but then don't prevent me from jacking up an HQ. The reason people had to invent Possum was exactly BECAUSE it was impossible to survive as the Soviet player under the existing game. Change and adapt, but it must go both ways. I developed a defensive strategy that was in response to a huge game imbalance and that was not prohibited by Lorenzo's rules. I wanted to see if it was possible to hold off an expert German player in '41 without cheating in any way, and it can be done. Even with the HQ defensive strategy, it only works about 50% of the time, as there is a lot of rail behind Moscow that can be cut. Furthermore, even if you do hold the Germans off, all your good units are in HQ's and they must be emptied into new formations BEHIND the main line, then akwardly brought forward because the HQ's are in the way. It will slow the Soviet winter defensive down by 3 weeks just due to reorganization.
I have no problem with prohibiting HQ defense but it MUST be accompanied by a limitation on what can be put in a Pzkrp. 2 Pz div max, 2 motorized divs max, and the Pzkrp must contain a flak batt and an artillery bat, as was historical. The soviet player should also be able to use mules in the defense of Moscow in '41. I really don't want to "graduate" to Possum, I like the existing game, but there must be some sensible limitations on German Pzkrp structure before any discussion can be made about further weaking the Soviets.
I have no problem with guys developing new strategies and tactics to win. Sure, jack up that Pzkrps, but then don't prevent me from jacking up an HQ. The reason people had to invent Possum was exactly BECAUSE it was impossible to survive as the Soviet player under the existing game. Change and adapt, but it must go both ways. I developed a defensive strategy that was in response to a huge game imbalance and that was not prohibited by Lorenzo's rules. I wanted to see if it was possible to hold off an expert German player in '41 without cheating in any way, and it can be done. Even with the HQ defensive strategy, it only works about 50% of the time, as there is a lot of rail behind Moscow that can be cut. Furthermore, even if you do hold the Germans off, all your good units are in HQ's and they must be emptied into new formations BEHIND the main line, then akwardly brought forward because the HQ's are in the way. It will slow the Soviet winter defensive down by 3 weeks just due to reorganization.
I have no problem with prohibiting HQ defense but it MUST be accompanied by a limitation on what can be put in a Pzkrp. 2 Pz div max, 2 motorized divs max, and the Pzkrp must contain a flak batt and an artillery bat, as was historical. The soviet player should also be able to use mules in the defense of Moscow in '41. I really don't want to "graduate" to Possum, I like the existing game, but there must be some sensible limitations on German Pzkrp structure before any discussion can be made about further weaking the Soviets.
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JagdFlanker
- Posts: 744
- Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2003 9:18 pm
- Location: Miramichi, Canada
RE: new house rules
i would be all for the limitation of Pz Korps/Tank Army sizes - what i suggest might be 6 divisions maximum in any mobile korps/army, just to make it easy. that way you can put 2 tank korps and 4 cav/mech, or 3 of each, (or even inf i guess, as long as you follow rule 3), etc. and you could even extend the 6 division max to all HQ units as well, except for the BIG HQ's like STAVKA, RVGK, OKH, OKW, etc. that could make HQ's not so useful for blocking choke points! this would make shock armies more powerful than mobile armies (since you can only put max 6 inf in a tank corps, but 8 in a shock army), and i think the SS Panzer Korps should be exempt from this rule as well.
10) There may never be any more than 6 Divisions in any mobile Korps/Army except in an SS Panzer Korps. There may never be any more than 6 Divisions in any HQ except for STAVKA, RVGK, OKH, OKW, West Front, or Italian Front.
10) There may never be any more than 6 Divisions in any mobile Korps/Army except in an SS Panzer Korps. There may never be any more than 6 Divisions in any HQ except for STAVKA, RVGK, OKH, OKW, West Front, or Italian Front.
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JagdFlanker
- Posts: 744
- Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2003 9:18 pm
- Location: Miramichi, Canada
RE: new house rules
how's aboot 6 divisions or 12 stack points, just so you don't stuff an HQ (or korps) with 6 tank Divisions? i guess there might be problem for those who like stuffing their HQ's with reinforcement units - mabe the limit could apply for HQ's within 3 hexes of an enemy hex so farther HQ's can be stuffed with korps reinforcements. i guess i'm just throwing stuff out to avoid using the vague 'key points' in the rule. any other suggestions?
RE: new house rules
How about if an HQ is in contact with enemy and in supply then it must withdraw.
"Power always thinks it has a great soul and vast views beyond the comprehension of the weak" - John Adams
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DavidFaust
- Posts: 888
- Joined: Sat Sep 04, 2004 8:30 am
- Location: Australia
RE: new house rules
I think air power roll is to great in this game. if it was the western front, it would be a different story. What are players thoughts on this rule?
No HQ may launch more than two missions of the same type, per turn. No single enemy unit may be attacked more than 2 times per turn.
Does anyone like these rules??
anymore ideas or changes?
No HQ may launch more than two missions of the same type, per turn. No single enemy unit may be attacked more than 2 times per turn.
Does anyone like these rules??
anymore ideas or changes?
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DavidFaust
- Posts: 888
- Joined: Sat Sep 04, 2004 8:30 am
- Location: Australia
RE: new house rules
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how's aboot 6 divisions or 12 stack points, just so you don't stuff an HQ (or korps) with 6 tank Divisions? i guess there might be problem for those who like stuffing their HQ's with reinforcement units - mabe the limit could apply for HQ's within 3 hexes of an enemy hex so farther HQ's can be stuffed with korps reinforcements. i guess i'm just throwing stuff out to avoid using the vague 'key points' in the rule. any other suggestions?
How about if an HQ is in contact with enemy and in supply then it must withdraw.
I like k62's responce as it is simple and direct, Im trying to keep the rules simple but with as much depth as posible.