WiR: TMP - Disappointment

Vadim · Post by **Vadim** » Mon Sep 04, 2000 8:02 pm

Sorry my terrible English, i`m from Russia...

I`m oldest fan of War in Russia, creater database-style editor for
windows with possible change tank-type and graphics and big tank and
aircraft database path...
I`m play in this game again and again...
And i`m download WiR: The Matrix Project...
I`m WAIT it !
I`m WANT it !
I`m informed about it my friends...
I`m and adapted for it my editor only for 2 day...

I`m start game for German...
My Panzer Corps reported about low readiness!
My Luftflotte deals small damage!
My fullblood (8 division) 70% readiness Corp with
mass air support (7 bomber`s group) do NOT
penetrate Russian defence in SEPTEMBER !
And i`m be pained...

I`m start game for Russian...
My fighters shoot down small (1-2) enemy bomber
and enemy bombers very good shoot down my fighters!
My 2 my mech corps after 7(!) turn rest have ~30-50%
readiness only and i`m still don`t merging it!
My full strength (8 division) army stay around Stavka
because i have little OP for move it!
And i`m be sad...

I`m see - computer is BIG CHEATER!

And i`m SAY - it`s version is BAD !

I`m not know - what it ?! Bugs or programmer`s bad idea, but it`s bad...

But i`m WANT HOPE to goodtime and goodversion...

Ed Cogburn · Post by **Ed Cogburn** » Tue Sep 05, 2000 11:27 am

Originally posted by Vadim:

I`m start game for German...
My Panzer Corps reported about low readiness! My Luftflotte deals small damage! My fullblood (8 division) 70% readiness Corp with mass air support (7 bomber`s group) do NOT penetrate Russian defence in SEPTEMBER !

How much low readiness are you talking about with the panzer corps? The benefits of Special Supply has been reduced. Is that what you're talking about?

The effect of air power has been reduced because it was initially *too* powerful, and there's no way anyone can figure out whether something was wrong during that battle you mention without knowing about the defenders in that battle.

I`m start game for Russian...
My fighters shoot down small (1-2) enemy bomber and enemy bombers very good shoot down my fighters! My 2 my mech corps after 7(!) turn rest have ~30-50% readiness only and i`m still don`t merging it! My full strength (8 division) army stay around Stavka because i have little OP for move it!

The USSR fighters at the beginning of the war were very poor and obsolete. German bombers being able to defend themselves and inflict major damage on the weak Russian fighters is normal. Russia will remain weak in terms of air power for most of the game, except during some winter turns when German air power is grounded.

Low readiness and Ops points are *normal* for USSR in '41 and early '42. This represents the poor shape the army and its officer command was at the beginning.

I`m see - computer is BIG CHEATER!

All games with AIs are usually big cheaters, that's nothing new, but some of what you're seeing is really supposed to happen, like the horrible shape the USSR ground forces are in in '41 and '42.

Vadim · Post by **Vadim** » Tue Sep 05, 2000 8:25 pm

-------------------------------------------------------------------
How much low readiness are you talking about with the panzer corps?
The benefits of Special Supply has been reduced. Is that what you're
talking about?
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Not, i`m talk about such situation - my 4 TD + 4 MD Panzer Corps
stay 1 turn at front line on hex with supply 6 without enemy air
attacks... And it`s Corps have only 7-17% readiness ?! I`m send my
Ju-52 transport with ALT-L command to supplay it Corps...
Readiness NOT changed !? But Corps may plotted way of 5 hex lenght.
Wrong readiness displayed ? Bugs ?
-------------------------------------------------------------------
The effect of air power has been reduced because it was initially
*too* powerful, and there's no way anyone can figure out whether
something was wrong during that battle you mention without knowing
about the defenders in that battle.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
No, in old version only STRATEGIC bombing was POWERFULL.
Ground attack was only little stronger, than in reality.
But in WiR:TMP ground attack very small !
See - ~150 bombers attack ~200 squad and only ~7 squad
destroyed !
-------------------------------------------------------------------
The USSR fighters at the beginning of the war were very poor and
obsolete. German bombers being able to defend themselves and inflict
major damage on the weak Russian fighters is normal.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Not, for example - german ace #2 was shoot down I-16 22.06.41
But GLOBAL situation really mirrored in OLD game version...
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Russia will remain weak in terms of air power for most of the game,
except during some winter turns when German air power is grounded.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
In old version i`m may choice - killed my aviation, but help
and safe my ground forces, as in reality OR killed my ground
forces, safe and training my aviation for winter counterstrike...
Also, i`m sometimes shoot down enemy bombers without fighter-cover,
(range limit) and make "interdict"-type air strike to Panzer Corps
without fighter-cover too.
We think - programmers remove "bomber cannon" value from
"fighter vs bomber" formulae and highly increase bomber`s MNV value.
In result - soviet fighter old and NEW types do NOT shoot down any
german bombers

It`s unreally!
I`m think - in 1943,44,45 german FB may be was have it problem too...
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Low readiness and Ops points are *normal* for USSR in '41 and
early '42. This represents the poor shape the army and its officer
command was at the beginning.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes, low OP level is realistic, as in old version game, but now unit
movement have VERY HIGH OP cost - it`s bad and unlogic idea!
Historical soviet mobilisation and creation of new army simulated
in game as delayed apperance new division on RVGK.
Also, you may read in german memoirs, that soviet transport work is
good, sometimes very good.

Bill Wong · Post by **Bill Wong** » Tue Sep 05, 2000 11:12 pm

I have also notice dteh gretaly increased bomber MNV values and all bombers now have zero cannon value - what gives?

some bombers now rival fighters in agility - seems ridiculous. i would like the programmer to help me understand what was intended with the changes.

the danger here is that too TMP will introduce too many changes when bug fixes and minor enhancements will do.

leave the big plans until Matrix gets another stab at the licencing with Mattel.

Leave this Gary Grigsby game intact - no design changes please. restore the orignal figher-bimber formulae

Nick Papp · Post by **Nick Papp** » Wed Sep 06, 2000 7:25 am

Originally posted by Bill Wong:
I have also notice dteh gretaly increased bomber MNV values and all bombers now have zero cannon value - what gives?

If I remember correctly, the Cannon rating is now reserved as the Tank killing factor.

Originally posted by Bill Wong:

some bombers now rival fighters in agility - seems ridiculous. i would like the programmer to help me understand what was intended with the changes.

Then we will have to wit until he gets back home this weekend to all find out!

Originally posted by Bill Wong:

the danger here is that too TMP will introduce too many changes when bug fixes and minor enhancements will do.

A couple of things here...

If all we were going to do with the game was make minor data changes, then we wold not need have used the code, right?

It is INHERENTLY difficult to catch all the bugs and balance gameplay in a game of this scope. The game move pretty slow, and issues of balance come from playing the game. Some guys on the Beta team like BEM, others like Human vs AI. Each aspect has to be balanced.

Like all the work we have done on SP:WaW, we WILL work to correct the bugs and improve the gameplay through suggestions that have gone up on the Forum. But...we have to have our programmer back to do this.

Originally posted by Bill Wong:

leave the big plans until Matrix gets another stab at the licencing with Mattel.

Leave this Gary Grigsby game intact - no design changes please. restore the orignal figher-bimber formulae

We'll work to improve the feel and gameplay, but we've already gone way past "leaving the game intact". We improve this going forward,
but how can you know that we don't ALLREADY have the right formula, once all the bugs are addressed and the game is working as the team planned it to be? This too is a part of the balance.

Give us a week or so to work things out. If you don't like the changes in the patch, let us know. Returns get a "double your money-back guarantee"!

Regards,

Nick

Wallymanowar · Post by **Wallymanowar** » Wed Sep 06, 2000 9:28 am

"Returns get a "double your money-back guarantee"! "

I want that offer Nick

Wait, I've already got all my money back, and more, and I didn't even have to return the product

Seriously though, there are a lot of tweaks which have disrupted things from what we would expect and require some more 'tweaking', but all in all I enjoy playing a 'free' game like this especially since I know that my comments and observations are taken into consideration and in the end I, too, am making a contribution. I hope Vadim and Bill Wong aren't discouraged by what they consider to be serious problems and continue to relay their comments because, from what I've seen from the Matrix guys so far, every comment is being considered and will lead to improvement.

------------------
'Bitter Mike'

[This message has been edited by Mike Tremblay (edited September 06, 2000).]

Bill Wong · Post by **Bill Wong** » Wed Sep 06, 2000 8:23 pm

Originally posted by Nick Papp:
We'll work to improve the feel and gameplay, but we've already gone way past "leaving the game intact". We improve this going forward,
but how can you know that we don't ALLREADY have the right formula, once all the bugs are addressed and the game is working as the team planned it to be? This too is a part of the balance.

Give us a week or so to work things out. If you don't like the changes in the patch, let us know. Returns get a "double your money-back guarantee"!

Regards,

Nick

Nick - Thanks for your reply - please don't get me wrong - I am a die hard fan of the game and I almost feel guilty about WIR TMP being a FREE game - I would gladly pay Matrix for the patch effort if that became the arrangement. Also - I will be there to buy the first copy of the matrix re-make of WIR when it happens.

OK, I will be patient for this patch to be fully implemented. I will also continue to offer constructive feedback to the team.

Cheers

Bill

[This message has been edited by Bill Wong (edited September 06, 2000).]

Vadim · Post by **Vadim** » Wed Sep 06, 2000 11:35 pm

Also, i`m forget important mistake in new version - please, correct it
and restore old soviet army location!
In reality, before Great Patriotic War (ie 22.06.41) Soviet Goverment
and Army High Command count South-West front as very dangerous place.
They think, that German main strike was dealt to Kiev-Stalingrad-Grozniy,
ie very rich resourse area. Soviet main and strong forces of 1st wave
was deployed in South-West front.

Cmdrcain · Post by **Cmdrcain** » Thu Sep 07, 2000 7:11 am

Originally posted by Nick Papp:

Give us a week or so to work things out. If you don't like the changes in the patch, let us know. Returns get a "double your money-back guarantee"!
Regards,
Nick

Your a Riot... 2x 0 still equals 0,
hehe...

Nick Papp · Post by **Nick Papp** » Thu Sep 07, 2000 7:44 am

Originally posted by Cmdrcain:
Your a Riot... 2x 0 still equals 0,
hehe...

Hmmm...must be that damn "New Math" they taught us in the '70's! {:0

Regards,

Nick

Nick Papp · Post by **Nick Papp** » Thu Sep 07, 2000 7:50 am

Originally posted by Vadim:
Also, i`m forget important mistake in new version - please, correct it
and restore old soviet army location!
In reality, before Great Patriotic War (ie 22.06.41) Soviet Goverment
and Army High Command count South-West front as very dangerous place.
They think, that German main strike was dealt to Kiev-Stalingrad-Grozniy,
ie very rich resourse area. Soviet main and strong forces of 1st wave
was deployed in South-West front.

I do believe that is true...can you send me some more specific information on what was moved, misplaced or is incorrect? Thanks!!

One of the guys on the Beta Team di dpost some information to that effect. On author or school of thought believes Barbarossa was actually a preemptive defensive strike, aimed at a Soviet force ready to retaliate for the Balkans incursion. And no question the Soviets would have wanted to protect the resource rich regions in and around the Caucauses.

Thanks Vadim,

Nick