Combined Historical Scenario - Ship Data

[Don Bowen]

But my Gridley/McCall has been lumped to Gridley....[:(][;)]

Just a name change - I guess I have a negative reaction to "slash" names. I can put it back if you want, and change Clemson to Wickes/Clemson.

Opinions anyone??

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

But my Gridley/McCall has been lumped to Gridley....[:(][;)]

Just a name change - I guess I have a negative reaction to "slash" names. I can put it back if you want, and change Clemson to Wickes/Clemson.

Opinions anyone??

I like dual names to point to the fact that class is purposely lumped together because of similairty, not ignorance.[8D]

[Don Bowen]

I like dual names to point to the fact that class is purposely lumped together because of similairty, not ignorance.[8D]

But ignorance is bliss (I replied happily).

[bstarr]

We've already defined a number of pre-USMC classes. These include Hog Island WWI Liberty Ships - Type A (cargo) and Type B (passenger), West Coaster WWI Liberty Ship, a World War I standard Tanker, early Navy transports (based on Henderson), Lake Type Coasters, a non-navalized President Class transport, and a large freighter of the Luckenbach line (for which we happened to have good data). Also a couple of dozen British, Dutch, Australian, Canadian and Philippine ships of various ages.

Wow! That is outstanding! I had no idea the work on mercs had progressed this much.

Any progress on early merc armament? I have an idea that I may try once I get my hands on the first version, but from the sounds of things so far you may have that one taken care of as well. The more I read about this mod the more impressed I become (Although, I still think Utah's a bad idea [;)])

What are the speeds of the older ships? Btw, the reason I've become so seemingly obsessive with the slower US mercs is I think it would be interesting to duplicate the fast convoy/slow convoy (they had initials, but I don't know them offhand) routines that the allies used in the Atlantic.

Be sure and pm or email me when you get the 1st version out, I sometimes miss a few days without checking in here, and I'd like to get a look at the baby as soon as she's wheeled out of the delivery room.
bs

[Don Bowen]

ORIGINAL: bstarr

Any progress on early merc armament? I have an idea that I may try once I get my hands on the first version, but from the sounds of things so far you may have that one taken care of as well. The more I read about this mod the more impressed I become (Although, I still think Utah's a bad idea [;)])

What are the speeds of the older ships? Btw, the reason I've become so seemingly obsessive with the slower US mercs is I think it would be interesting to duplicate the fast convoy/slow convoy (they had initials, but I don't know them offhand) routines that the allies used in the Atlantic.

As to armament - all US Merchant ships will be unarmed at the start of the war. To simulate gradual armament the various classes will upgrade to armed versions one by one. The best ships will be first in early 1942 and the rest will follow in 42-43.

Merchants from Britain/Commonwealth and other nations that were at war for two years by December 1941 will arrive already armed.

Speed is the one factor that I am able to find for all ships. I am estimating, guessing, and making up the other parameters and there will have to be considerable correction as time goes by.

Utah - what is everyone's opinion??

[Don Bowen]

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

ORIGINAL: Herrbear

Using your Tambor example with 6 tubes F and 4 tubes R, you could split the forward tubes into 2 devices of 3 tubes each instead 1 device of 6 forward tubes. You could also set up the rear tubes to be 2 devices of 2 tubes.

Now if you listed the forward tubes as 3 tubes twice, the game will fire either 1 bank of 3 forward, the other bank of 3 forward or the 4 aft bank? By setting it up this way, achieve what you are looking for instead of worrying about what the increased tubes would do?

3, 3 or 4 would give you 4 attacks with 3 torps and 3 attacks with 4 torps, for 7 attacks all together before returning home instead of 5 as current.

3, 3, 2 or 2 would give you 4 attacks with 3 torps and 6 attacks with 2 torps for 10 attacks.

Sounds good. It will also get the ammo in line. Tambors etc have 30 torps when 24 is right amount.

It appears that several classes of US submarines carry too many torpedoes. Friedman's Submarine book gives number of torpedoes but not Forward/Aft position of reloads. Problems:

Perch: 4 tubes forward, 2 aft, 16 total torpedoes - Matrix class 326 (generalized "P" class) totals 18 torpedoes
Tambor: 6 tubes forward, 4 aft, 24 total torpedoes - Matrix class 328 totals 30 torpedoes
Gato/Balao: 6 tubes forward, 4 aft, 24 total torpedoes - Matrix classes 329 and 340 total 30 torpedoes

For the Perch, I can reduce the 2 aft tubes to Ammo 2 and come into line. For the modern 24-torpedo boats it is not so simple. One is mathematically tempted to reduce the 6 forward tubes to Ammo 2 but it does not make sense to carry more reloads aft then forward. Rather than arbitrarily split the tubes to reduce total ammo to 24, does anyone have data on the location of the reloads???

If no additional information is available, I will guess the following:
Forward: 2 x 3 (ammo 2) and 4 x 3 (ammo 3), total 16
Aft: 4 x 4 (ammo 2), total 8

[Tankerace]

On location of reloads, forward tubes always have more. As best as I can tell from data I have:

Tambor/Gato/Balao/Tench class Aft: 4 Tubes, 8 Torpedoes; Bow: 6 Tubes, 16 Torpedoes.

Salmon/Sargo class Aft: 4 Tubes, 8 Torpedoes; Bow: 4 Tubes, 12 Torpedoes

P class/Narwhal Aft: 2 Tubes, 4 Torpedoes; Bow: 4 Tubes, 12 Torpedoes.

S class/Argonaut Aft: None, nil; Bow 4 Tubes, 12 Torpedoes

Barracuda class Aft: 2 Tubes, 4 Torpedoes; Bow 4 Tubes; 8 Torpedoes

While I am thinking about it, since 1) the Barracudas were used in the Pacific as training boats, and 2) I already have a graphic and data for them for War Plan Orange, do we want to include them too?

[Herrbear]

Allied Submarines - WWII Fact Files - Anthony J Watts

Sub Class - Tubes B - Tubes A - # Torps

Barracida - 4 - 2 - 12

S-boats - 4 - 0 - 12

Argonaut - 4 - 0 - 16

Narwhal - 4 - 2 - 24

P class - 4 - 2 - 16 NOTE: Permit, Pickerel, Pike, Porpise and Tarpon added 2 external bow tubes (don't know if these were a war refit or pre-war). Perch, Permit and Pickerel 18 torps.

Cachalot - 4 - 2 - 16

Salmon - 4 - 4 - 24

Tambor - 6 - 4 - 24

Gato/Balao/Tench - 6 - 4 - 24

[Tankerace]

We know # of torps, but we need where they were. Look at my data, it matches yours (escept Narwhal), but also give where the torps were, which is what we are needing.

Also, are these authorized or carried amounts? Subs in the Asiatic fleet often didn't go to sea with a full compliment, and I don't think the earlier boats carried as many torps as authorized. Are you sure your Salmon is correct? I can see a jump to 20 as cited in my data, but with gain 2 tubes instead of 4 I don't think they carried 24 torpedoes.

[Tankerace]

Hehe, oops. You are right. All my esitmates are correct as to where torpedoes were stored, but I forgot to count external torpedo reloads. The Salmon Sargo had the 20 torps in positions I gave, but also had 4 torps as external reloads, bringing it up to your 24.

So Don, how do we account for external reloads that could be used anywhere?

[Don Bowen]

ORIGINAL: Tankerace

On location of reloads, forward tubes always have more. As best as I can tell from data I have:

Tambor/Gato/Balao/Tench?? class Aft: 4 Tubes, 8 Torpedoes; Bow: 6 Tubes, 16 Torpedoes.

Right – I’ll go with the previous assumption:
Forward: 2 x 3 (ammo 2) and 4 x 3 (ammo 3), total 16
Aft: 4 x 4 (ammo 2), total 8

Friedman gives 28 torpedoes for Tench class - no data on disposition. What should we do with that??

Salmon/Sargo class Aft: 4 Tubes, 8 Torpedoes; Bow: 4 Tubes, 12 Torpedoes
The Salmon Sargo had the 20 torps in positions I gave, but also had 4 torps as external reloads, bringing it up to your 24.
So Don, how do we account for external reloads that could be used anywhere?

Beats me! We could assume the forward spares would be expended first and the externals would then replenish forward. This piece of absolute guesswork would result in:
Forward: 4 x 4, ammo 4
Aft: 4 x 4, ammo 2

Alternately would could just leave it like it is (3 ammo for all tubes). This has the advantage of inertia.

P class/Narwhal Aft: 2 Tubes, 4 Torpedoes; Bow: 4 Tubes, 12 Torpedoes.
S class/Argonaut Aft: None, nil; Bow 4 Tubes, 12 Torpedoes

No problems here.

Barracuda class Aft: 2 Tubes, 4 Torpedoes; Bow 4 Tubes; 8 Torpedoes

While I am thinking about it, since 1) the Barracudas were used in the Pacific as training boats, and 2) I already have a graphic and data for them for War Plan Orange, do we want to include them too?

Not worth much but sure, why not. Do you have recommended specs??

[Herrbear]

Allied Submarines - Watts

Dutch Subs
Shows K XI as 15 knots max not 17
Shows O 21 endurance as 7100 not 10000

British subs

T class shows endurance 11000 for the subs in the game instead of 7000 as these able to use part of the saddle tanks as fuel bunkers greatly increasing the range.
T class - 8 - 3 - 17 NOTE: the rear tubes are 1x1 and 1x2

S class shows endurance of 6000 for those in the game instead of 5000.

The followng subs should not be British "S" class.
Porpoise - Porpoise class - Minelaying class
Clyde - River class
Rorqual - Porpoise class
Vivid - V class
Vigorous - V class

Porpoise class - Max - 16; End - 7400; 6 bow tubes (21in torp) 12 total. 50 mines in 2 chutes. 1x4in and 2x.303 (2x1). Fuel 150

River class - Max - 22; End - 10000; 6 bow tubes (21in torp) 12 total. 1x4in and 2x.303 (2x1). Fuel 216

V class - Max - 13; End 4700; Dur - 30; 4 bow tubes (21in torp) 8 total. 1x3in and 3x.303 (3x1). Fuel 59

[Tankerace]

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

ORIGINAL: Tankerace

On location of reloads, forward tubes always have more. As best as I can tell from data I have:

Friedman gives 28 torpedoes for Tench class - no data on disposition. What should we do with that??

Barracuda class Aft: 2 Tubes, 4 Torpedoes; Bow 4 Tubes; 8 Torpedoes

While I am thinking about it, since 1) the Barracudas were used in the Pacific as training boats, and 2) I already have a graphic and data for them for War Plan Orange, do we want to include them too?

Not worth much but sure, why not. Do you have recommended specs??

On the Tench, I had no data for that, I just assumed that they probably retained the 24 torpedoes of the previous classes. 28 eh? I think 20 forward and the same 8 aft would be appropriate, aft torpedo rooms were not that large.

On the Barracudas, here is my data for WPO (Taken from Conway's)

Max speed: 18
Cruiser speed : 9
Mnvr: 70
Dur: 20
Endureance: 10000
Fuel: 350

Weapon 1: 21" Mk 10 Torpedo, 4, 4, F, Ammo 2
Weapon 2: 21" Mk 10 Torpedo, 2, 2, R, Ammo 2
Weapon 3: 5"/51 Mk 7, 1, 1, F, Ammo 18
Weapon 4, .50 cal MG, 1, 1, A, Ammo 18

Also, I don't think we should give the Barracuda's minelaying ability, but just my thoughts.

[Herrbear]

Salmon/Sargo class Aft: 4 Tubes, 8 Torpedoes; Bow: 4 Tubes, 12 Torpedoes
The Salmon Sargo had the 20 torps in positions I gave, but also had 4 torps as external reloads, bringing it up to your 24.
So Don, how do we account for external reloads that could be used anywhere?

Beats me! We could assume the forward spares would be expended first and the externals would then replenish forward. This piece of absolute guesswork would result in:
Forward: 4 x 4, ammo 4
Aft: 4 x 4, ammo 2

Alternately would could just leave it like it is (3 ammo for all tubes). This has the advantage of inertia.

I have looked at some web sites and they seem to indicate that the 4 xternal reloads were removed in 1942.

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: Tankerace

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

ORIGINAL: Tankerace

On location of reloads, forward tubes always have more. As best as I can tell from data I have:

Friedman gives 28 torpedoes for Tench class - no data on disposition. What should we do with that??


Not worth much but sure, why not. Do you have recommended specs??

On the Tench, I had no data for that, I just assumed that they probably retained the 24 torpedoes of the previous classes. 28 eh? I think 20 forward and the same 8 aft would be appropriate, aft torpedo rooms were not that large.

On the Barracudas, here is my data for WPO (Taken from Conway's)

Max speed: 18
Cruiser speed : 9
Mnvr: 70
Dur: 20
Endureance: 10000
Fuel: 350

Weapon 1: 21" Mk 10 Torpedo, 4, 4, F, Ammo 2
Weapon 2: 21" Mk 10 Torpedo, 2, 2, R, Ammo 2
Weapon 3: 5"/51 Mk 7, 1, 1, F, Ammo 18
Weapon 4, .50 cal MG, 1, 1, A, Ammo 18

Also, I don't think we should give the Barracuda's minelaying ability, but just my thoughts.

Don't include Barracudas. They served in Panama mainly I think. Bad enough we can't withdraw ships for service in Panama, Atlantic etc. Adding ships from Panama which were never combatants would be really pushing it.

[Don Bowen]

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

Don't include Barracudas. They served in Panama mainly I think. Bad enough we can't withdraw ships for service in Panama, Atlantic etc. Adding ships from Panama which were never combatants would be really pushing it.

Aw - and I just downloaded the icon.

[Tankerace]

Pffft..... maybe as the Allies I want to requisition them..... so pfffft [:D]

[Don Bowen]

ORIGINAL: Herrbear

Allied Submarines - Watts

Dutch Subs
Shows K XI as 15 knots max not 17
Shows O 21 endurance as 7100 not 10000

Lenton agrees with Watts on K-XI. Can't verify O-21 but I'll go with it too.

British subs

T class shows endurance 11000 for the subs in the game instead of 7000 as these able to use part of the saddle tanks as fuel bunkers greatly increasing the range.
T class - 8 - 3 - 17 NOTE: the rear tubes are 1x1 and 1x2

Lenton indicates only 6 reload torpedoes so I will probably change this to:
Forward: 6 x 6, 2 Ammo + 2 x 2, 1 Ammo
Aft: 3 x 1, 1 Ammo (no sense worrying about midsips/aft)

S class shows endurance of 6000 for those in the game instead of 5000.

This is Lenton’s figure for S-class (1st Group) in British Service (P-551/6). Freidman credits US S-Class (1st Group) with 7,900/6.5 (figures for S-20 after rebuilding 1n 1939) or 8950/9.5 (S-18, not rebuilt). The US figures are maximum, with fuel in main ballast tank. This one I think I will leave alone.

The followng subs should not be British "S" class.
Porpoise - Porpoise class - Minelaying class
Clyde - River class
Rorqual - Porpoise class
Vivid - V class
Vigorous - V class

Porpoise class - Max - 16; End - 7400; 6 bow tubes (21in torp) 12 total. 50 mines in 2 chutes. 1x4in and 2x.303 (2x1). Fuel 150

River class - Max - 22; End - 10000; 6 bow tubes (21in torp) 12 total. 1x4in and 2x.303 (2x1). Fuel 216

V class - Max - 13; End 4700; Dur - 30; 4 bow tubes (21in torp) 8 total. 1x3in and 3x.303 (3x1). Fuel 59

We have the Porpoise, River, and Thames classes – I’ll double check against your specs. I seem to recall that the two “V” class were only used for training – we have left them out.

[Herrbear]

Sorry I was not clear on the S boat. This was meant to be the British S class. The boats listed in Scenario 15 are all from the 3rd group of S class boats.

No problem with the V class. Only commented as they were listed in scenario 15.

[Don Bowen]

ORIGINAL: Herrbear

Sorry I was not clear on the S boat. This was meant to be the British S class. The boats listed in Scenario 15 are all from the 3rd group of S class boats.

No problem with the V class. Only commented as they were listed in scenario 15.

There were only 6 surviving boats in the 3rd Group. Effectively the 3rd Group were improved 1st Group. A better break down of the old S-Class would be by Builder. 12 surviving 1st Group and the 6 2nd Group from Bethlehem (Quincy) and another dozen surviving 1st Group from Bethlehem (San Francisco) were the best.. Other boats from Lake and Navy Yards (2nd/4th Groups) were rather poor.

The endurance for a 3rd Group S-Boat is given as 10,000/8.1 (with fuel in Main Ballast tank). Again, I'm leaning toward leaving this one alone. I missed the US/British S-boat reference and got carried away - sorry. I'll look into the British "S" class and make another post.

I'll double check on the "V" boats when I get some time - not till after the Alpha is out.

Don