Ok to Jap Fanboys (and girls) How far will you go!

[medicff]

I am wondering some opinions on this issue regarding how far will people go to take advantage of the December 7 bonus. I have seen many threads on limited port attacks but what about landings in general. I have an opponent who has, very strategically I might add, taken several size 4 airfields to facilliate decimation of any forces leaving the phillipines or SRA area. Except for 1 landing in the north phillipines and traditional wake, guam, malaya landings and the PH attack, he has also landed on three size 4 airfields in southern philipines plus ambonia, rabaul and the western bornea size 4 (can't remember name) air base. This all done with turn 1 bonus move, landing tf's leaving by turn 2-3.

Now forget his other moves of putting of mines, surface tf's, subs and small cv's in the south of the phillipines to catch escaping ships (all on turn one).

How realistic to assume the allies wouldn't catch a bunch of warships steaming south and attempt some sort of response?

From the manual:

17.1.8 December 7th Surprise Rule
If the player selects a scenario that begins on December 7th, 1941, this option may be selected.
When chosen, during the Morning Phase only on December 7, 1941, the following occurs to represent Allied surprise:
Allied air units flying patrols (CAP, search, etc.) have a 50% chance of not flying any
aircraft
If an air group passes this test and elects to fly, the number of aircraft that will fly is
reduced by 75%
The Allies will launch no airstrikes
Japanese Naval TFs move at twenty times thier normal speed to reach their
destinations

Aircraft making a port attack during any December 7 phase will attack ships 100
percent of the time if there are at least 10 ships in the port
Aircraft hit on any Allied airfields suffer increased damage
Japanese ships on Turn 1 will not use more than 3 hexes of fuel, representing their
tanker support
Japanese Fast Transport TFs do not receive a bonus movement rate on Turn 1

So in order to represent surprise this rule is insituted, fair enough. But how much is too much and unbalances the starting game.

To my dismay he now has complete air mastery (on December 9) over the entire escape route past darwin with his Betty's based at Ambonia.

The worst is by taking advantage of the turn one rule, the allies can never be any attempt to thwart or punish these landings.

His strategy is sound, just IMHO taking the rule beyond reason and giving himself an ridiculous tactical and strategic advantage at the cruical early stage without ANY risk.

So from everyone else (now that I step down from the podium) - What are your typical starts and how much does everyone else take advantage of the turn one speed rule.

To Allied Fanboys - how far would you let your opponents take advantage of this rule.

And yes, my opponent may state his defense here. [:D]

[Feinder]

I actually don't play with house rules, it solves the very problem you're talking about. Something wasn't directly addressed by a house-rule, and now there's an "issue".

But that aside, consider how much you've actually lost.

Not much.

1. You're going to lose them shortly anyways. 15 VPs per base lost in December, is the same as 15 VPs lost in January.
2. Because of it, you're going to lose more fleeing transports, and he's going to loose less "stuff" in DEI, because you don't have the bases to fly from. All in all, you're probably talking about 15 transports of yours that will now likely die. And probably about 20 transports and 10 other non-capital ships that your RDAF bombers would have killed from those bases. Something yes, but over-all a drop in the bucket.
3. SRA is exclusive of Burma. Capturing SRA ahead of schedule, doesn't help him Burma. It's the units in Malaya that he'll use in Burma.
4. It does put him ahead of schedule in SWPac. He'll be able to use the heavy fleet units that would normally blow the sh1t out of stuff in SRA (and/or will now not be damaged), to move up his time-table in SWPac. Just means you better move faster to reinforce SWPac.

Again, cutting SRA from Oz is something that's going to happen anyways. My mindset is, "Everything is SRA is already written off. The point of it is to extract as much damage on IJN as possible before it dies." And you'd be surprised how much damage you can do (without retreating).

Think of it as a challenge to be overcome.
-F-

[Mr.Frag]

You can't have it both ways.

You either get surprise or you get moves into allied airspace.

Both is unreasonable.

This move was specifically coded to allow ships to pretend they had been at sea for some time. Had they been in Allied airspace instead, they would have probably been subject to multiple days worth of bombing prior to getting to the landing.

[tanksone]

A word comes to the top of my mind, hmm......oh ya gamey[:-]

[pfnognoff]

I'm not an allied fanboy, I'm just stuck playing only them at the moment due to not enoguh free time, but I will try to comment this.

If you want to be properly tested as allied commander you shouldn't try to put to much restraint on Japan abusing the December surprise. My limit would be don't sail your forces to Kendari or Balikapan, or all the way through Macasar straight and into Rangoon.

There is also a "house rules" thread somwhere on the forum where you can find all kinds of ideas about this issue, and good one is to limit invasions by checking if the base is in recon plane range or if LRCAP can be provided for that place.

There is also a whole other side to this, and that is if you don't put restraints on Japan they could easily overstretch themselves by attacking at to many places at once and become stuck. There is only so many excelent SAA land units and Zero squadrons at the start.

[Tom Hunter]

The more places Japan attacks the more opportunity you have to concentrate force and smack him.

Sure its hard...its a WAR dammit! [:)]

BUt seriously this means he must have small TFs and vunerable forces all over the place. Just providing them with supply will be difficult something that your opponent is unlikely to have thought much about in his intial glee at finding he could invade all over the place.

With some clever planning you could wack a bunch of Betties on the ground.

[maybee]

I wonder, by limiting the invasion to bases outside range of recon is equivalent to boost day 1 detection rate to 100%, which is contradict to the programed rule of reduced air effectiveness for the allies on day 1.

A question to those history savvy players, what was the awareness/preparation level of ABDA before Day 1? Can the Jap actually achieve some sort of surprise attacking well inside SRA?

[Bradley7735]

Well, I'm not one of the PBEM players, so maybe I'm just missing some brains.

I don't know why any allied player would allow a non-historic Japanese turn without getting the same benefit. Hey, you Japanese player! Why don't you land in 18 additional places that didn't happen on Dec 7th. I'll leave all my planes grounded and my fleets in port. Go ahead and port attack Manila and Singapore, as well as PH. Land in Noumea on day 2, land on the west side of Maylaya on turn one. You can then get about 10 times the results of Dec 7th. That way, everything is fair. [8|]

either play turn one as historic or play it non-historic with both sides entering orders. That's a no-brainer for me. (either an easy answer or I have no brains)

[moses]

Yes the idea that Japan can do what it wants but allied must not touch anything is crazy. If the Japanese want to attack throughout the SRA using telaportation then I can form TF's, evacuate air units, etc. Plus surprise bonus is turned off.

As Japan I play a very conservative first move. One port attack on turn one and none of my surface ships end the turn more than 4 hexes from Japanese controled territory. I allow exceptions for Wake and PH.

As allies I expect somthing similar if I am expected to sit tight on my first move.

[mogami]

Hi, My first turn rules are posted all over the place. I don't think it hurts me as Japan to follow them.

[ChezDaJez]

Turn 1 isn't historically accurate as it is. Historically, the Japanese didn't land in the Philippines until 2 days after PH.

As far as the Allied level of awareness and preparation... they weren't and didn't! MacAruthur still had his planes on the ground in the PI hours after knowing PH had been attacked. The Brits had tracked the Malaya invasion forces for at least 2 days prior to the start of war but didn't intercede because they hoped they were heading for Indochina and didn't want to provoke a Japanese attack. They were hoping for time and didn't get it.

As far as multiple landings go, it's a valid tactic, if you can pull it off. That's not gamey. It's historically and realistically possible. Just because the Japanese didn't do it, doesn't mean they couldn't. I don't think its right to say, "Mr. Jap player, I know you want to start a war but you can only do it here, here, and here. And, oh, by the way, you can't use these forces or those forces."

Being gamey is when you use the limitations of the game such as map edges and ZOCs to achieve results that weren't historically or realistically possible.

Chez

[mogami]

Hi, Please go back and study Dec 7 again.
The planes in PI were not STILL on the ground. They were on the ground AGAIN.
They had taken off in the ealry hours when attack on PH was learned of and they returned to refuel just in time to be caught by Japanese. (The Japanese attack was delayed by fog at Japanese airfields)
If the Japanese had attacked on time the fields in PI would have been empty. If the Japanese attack had been a little later the fields in PI would have been empty (AGAIN)

Any attack on PI would occur hours after the PH attack because sunrise in PI is hours later then sunrise in PH. (And Singapore still later)

[medicff]

ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez


As far as multiple landings go, it's a valid tactic, if you can pull it off. That's not gamey. It's historically and realistically possible. Just because the Japanese didn't do it, doesn't mean they couldn't. I don't think its right to say, "Mr. Jap player, I know you want to start a war but you can only do it here, here, and here. And, oh, by the way, you can't use these forces or those forces."

Being gamey is when you use the limitations of the game such as map edges and ZOCs to achieve results that weren't historically or realistically possible.

Chez

It is not the multiple landings that I have a problem with it is taking advantage of the first turn movement that concerns me. I should at least have a couple days of sightings to warn of incoming tf's. If you want start the tf's but set them at "do not retire" and sail them 1 days worth from port or at least to the edge of Jap controlled area and then 1 days worth forward. Now I have a day or two to react in some fashion to make you pay for your aggressiveness in some small fashion.[:D]

[Bradley7735]

There's only two options for starting the game. Historic first turn or not historic first turn. If I play you and you don't want historic first turn, then I'm issuing orders to my units and surprise is off.

I don't know why so many allied players accept terms different than this.

I think that even adjusting the Wake landing force is cheating. If you want to add another Bn to the landings, then Lexington may just be waiting for you. Then it's fair. Historic for both or non-historic for both.

But, since I don't play PBEM, my opinion is worth the lint in my pocket.

[moses]

ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez

I don't think its right to say, "Mr. Jap player, I know you want to start a war but you can only do it here, here, and here. And, oh, by the way, you can't use these forces or those forces."

OK but then don't say "Mr Allied player, I going to spend several days cruising with my troop ships deep into the heart of your territory and attack you in a few days but you can't move any of your ships or planes and you have to be surprised"

[Grotius]

I wouldn't mind using the "historic" setting for Japan if I could have just a wee bit more control over some of the operations the AI has set for us on turn 1. E.g., the units invading the Phillipines are low on supply, as are the units on the Fast Transport TF heading to Makin. Maybe the Wake invasion force is historical, but grr, I sure wouldn't have done it that way. Even the PH strike I'd do a bit differently, starting with submarine placement.

Anyway, I guess that means I'm leaning toward a house rule like Mogami's or Moses's.

[medicff]

ORIGINAL: Bradley7735

There's only two options for starting the game. Historic first turn or not historic first turn. If I play you and you don't want historic first turn, then I'm issuing orders to my units and surprise is off.

I don't know why so many allied players accept terms different than this.

I think that even adjusting the Wake landing force is cheating. If you want to add another Bn to the landings, then Lexington may just be waiting for you. Then it's fair. Historic for both or non-historic for both.

But, since I don't play PBEM, my opinion is worth the lint in my pocket.

Read the entire December surprise and note that the allies cannot really defend or relocate much on the first day.

The Allies will launch no airstrikes
Allied air units flying patrols (CAP, search, etc.) have a 50% chance of not flying any
aircraft

My opponent strategically placed assets to catch any shipping leaving PI with the first day move (all there at once)

You cannot relocate air assets in PI due to restricted HQ

The allies can only move the ships alloted movement on turn one and cannot catch or escape the Japs

Any air attacks by the allies will be feeble at best and really should run away if possible.

[Dutchgy2000]

ORIGINAL: moses


OK but then don't say "Mr Allied player, I going to spend several days cruising with my troop ships deep into the heart of your territory and attack you in a few days but you can't move any of your ships or planes and you have to be surprised"

Suprided? You mean I can sail the KB within striking distance of Pearl but I can´t sail a couple of innocent looking transports loaded with a SNLF to some godforsaken unprepared base for a night/early morning landing? Now a whole invasion fleet might be a different story, but then again, that fleet managed to land all over the place irl even with warning pretty well... so who knows.

Actually i think unexpected landings are a good start, adds some flavour. Now if ya want it realistic (within the games limits that is), then play computer against computer and take over jan 1st or something, or whatever day the president puts a new CIC in place. Its not like anyone will be suprised by the ´normal´ landings anymore so as allied ya pretty much already have a plan for dealing, or not dealing, with those and are not running around like a headless chicken wondering what to do like irl.

Oh and btw... i wouldn´t call myself a japanese fanboy... but as a dutch fanboy my role in the game woud be pretty small... so i´ll take this side this time [;)]

[moses]

Well you know Pearl Harbor wasn't a sure thing. Japan limited the number of fleets headed towards allied bases in order to reduce the chance of detection. I believe that only the PH strike force was in a position that if detected would have signaled a certain attack.

Now this force could have been detected just by luck. You know a training flight of b-17's happens across them or a sub or merchant ship happens to be where japan doesn't expect. Surprise could have been lost.

But in the game Japan gets this attack for free as is proper. But to make landings at dozens of bases all across the pacific and expect to achieve surprise just does not seem likely.

People can do whatever they want in a Pbem game as long as they both agree. But for me if the Japanese player shows up at Numea in the first week its just not War in the Pacific. Its just some fantasy world.

[Dutchgy2000]

ORIGINAL: moses

Well you know Pearl Harbor wasn't a sure thing. Japan limited the number of fleets headed towards allied bases in order to reduce the chance of detection. I believe that only the PH strike force was in a position that if detected would have signaled a certain attack.

Now this force could have been detected just by luck. You know a training flight of b-17's happens across them or a sub or merchant ship happens to be where japan doesn't expect. Surprise could have been lost.

But in the game Japan gets this attack for free as is proper. But to make landings at dozens of bases all across the pacific and expect to achieve surprise just does not seem likely.

People can do whatever they want in a Pbem game as long as they both agree. But for me if the Japanese player shows up at Numea in the first week its just not War in the Pacific. Its just some fantasy world.

Yep... i aggree, Numea would be a stretch, but one of two islands underneath PI, now thats not that impossible. Only need one or two transports to drop a SNLF and i doubt anyone was keeping track of every singe japanese (or other nations for that matter) merchant ship. After all the pacific is one big trading route, ships go everywhere all the time. Even then ya would first need to notice it, and notice it was Japanese, and notice it had troops on board, and know it was going to one of your bases, and need permission to actually bomb it before any war started. We know the war started dec 7th, they didn´t (well except for the japanese obviously), so what treath is a lonely merchant. Just because in the game the ships start out from japanese controlled harbours does´nt mean that irl a few wouldn´t have already been a short nights trip away from shore ready to land the next morning, thats what the extra speed is supposed to represent after all.