Ok to Jap Fanboys (and girls) How far will you go!

[mogami]

Hi, What your kidding? I'm Allied and he wants to Stomp Tokyo.

[ChezDaJez]

Ooooops! I'm not really up on Japanese monsters (Did it show?). But they would be unstoppable if they teamed up.

Chez

[pauk]

hi, i'm also using Mogami house rules...


Feinder, good point! (no pain, no gain)

[2ndACR]

Lets see, I will hit Ambonia, Davao, Wake, Tarawa, Batan island, Makin, Narau, Miri, Brunei, Khuto Baru, Legaspi all on turn 1. I will para drop on Lingayan on turn 1. And sometimes even hit Aparri.

Lingayan landings occur on turn 2-3. Kuching occurs turn 3-4, Kendari on turn 4-10 depends on what the allied player does.

But I also hit Manila instead of Pearl Harbor with KB, so it really does not matter about where or when I start landing on the size 4 bases. With KB already in the area on turn 1, all Allied shipping dies fast anyway and I can pretty much go where ever I decide to go after turn 1 when I decide to go.

[mogami]

Hi, That pretty much sums ups what Mr Frag is refering to.
The PH strike force came out a vast open area of ocean.
Any movement around PI or in SRA in general is going to be observed. There is no way transports could reach farther then northern Luzon.
And no Japanese landings occured on Dec 7.

It is by using the surprise rule (where there would be no surprise) and destroying Allied aircraft on the ground that the japanese player gets away with this.

I'd allow all of it however. Only the Japanese player would have to turn off turn 1 surprise and allow the Allied player to give orders. Then the conditions would more closely reflect the actual "what might have been"

Note that I don't do the above and still allow the Allied player to give orders. Why? Because I make the PH strike it takes place far enough in advance of daylight in SRA that surprise has been lost.
Had Japanese transports been in range of Luzon the PI airforce would not have been caught on the ground. The Japanese waited to gain air control before sending them in.
Because their were no targets the USAAF bombers and escorts returned to base and were then caught on the ground. In the above they would be off attacking Japanese TF when the Japanese airfield attacks came in.

If you allow the Allied player orders you have to plan better because you won't know where Allied airgroups will be. Then you need to assign CAP to your TF and escorts as well (because the Allied combat ships are moving)
If you can do this then I think it is better. I do everything except move within 4 hexes of the Allied bases. This is where Japanese TF would have been on Dec 7. Any closer and there could be no surprise attack at PH or elsewhere and USN submarines and aircraft would probley fire the first shots of the war ( we all know a USN DD fired the first shots anyway)

[Dutchgy2000]

ORIGINAL: mlees

Well then i guess we view the game in different ways. As Japan the whole point would be to convince the Allies the rational thing to do is to pull out. The sooner the battle is over the better.. thats the whole idea behind the war in the first place, ya can´t roleplay it better then that. Making it ´fun´ for the allies now that would be ´gamey´ strategically... not only tactically.

So, if Japan doesn't win the war, it isn't "fun" or "right"? Hmm. I don't see it that way.

The Japanese player will run wild for six months to a year, then he/she will be slowly crushed by overwhelming Allied production. Japan loses the war. Period. The Task, as the Japanese player, is to see how well he can do with the forces and time given. Compare yourself to Historical benchmarks (Japan's economy collapses by early '45) or by player personal best. The Japanese player can "win the game" without "winning the war". Two players on cordial terms with each other can come to some agreement on who did well, and who did not do as well.

If you, as a player, cannot have "fun" without completely trashing the opponent, and send him home to his momma, play the late war scenerio as the Allied player. (As a bnonus, you don't have to put up with the frustrating production system.)

Man! I had to type this three times! The forum keeps dropping me out offline, and won't take my post as guest...

No, you are actually missing my whole point there. As Japan i know (now, i wouldn´t have known then or i would never have started the war in thew first place right... so a sensible ´roleplay´for me as Japan would be not to even start the war... there goes your game) that i can not win. But i will do my utmost to give it a go and make it hard on any allies. This to me means that no I will not follow the complete actual historrical path step by step with a history book in one hand and giving orders with the other, however much fun this might be for the allies. I will do what i thnk is right to crush you with as little effort as possible, if that means any allied thinks retreat is the only option, so be it. Maybe if ya can´t handle the unexpected landing here and there and think loosing for a while is not ´fun´ to you, ya are not cut out to command [;)] . Japan will have a big loosing sprea later on in the war so according to you there´s no point in that either then. Personally as allied i do find it ´fun´to see how i can get out of the mess and start an offensive some day in the future, if I can´t then congratulations to my opponent.

[mogami]

Hi, I don't expliot turn 1 and as Japan I have at least a 2-1 ratio in VP by May 1942.
Now May 1942 is where the fun starts. The SRA is easy. Japan needs zero bonus there other then the horde already provided. Exploiting the system is not fun for me.
I don't score points in China unless the Allied player gives them to me.

[Dutchgy2000]

Why is everone so addament that the corrext way to play is as a simulation... and then goes on and on about ´points´ which is purely a ´game´ perspective. I could not care less about points, for all i care that can be taken out completely. As long as I do well with what i´ve been given it´s a good game. If that means trying something gutsy and having it backfire but still hanging on in 43/44 .. or playing carefull and lasting into 46... both are perfectly good results.

[mogami]

Hi, Just as long as you don't think Japan had stealth teleporting ships your ok.

[Dutchgy2000]

I don´t think that for a second (although as allied i would think the KB was just that.. lol), but I also think everyone can´t get away with saying ´They would have been noticed´ all the time also.

[mogami]

Hi, It was not "They would have noticed" The US and Allies were tracking Japanese ships in SRA. They saw the ones heading for Malaya they were 48 hours from Malaya when war began. The Dutch Commander of ABDA was killed flying to Singapore to consult about when they would take action. The USN had been ordered "when they cross this line war has begun" They had not crossed the line when PH attacked. But if you land on Dec 7 you have to cross the line on Dec 5th!!!!

[2ndACR]

This has been argued to death already. I do like watching the new guys gripe about it though.[:D]

If you really want to piss off your Allied opponent, just launch 30+ invasions on turn 1 all over the map. That will hack them off to no end. Especially if you invade Batvia on turn 1. That is a sure fire way to piss him off.

I try really hard not to abuse the rule too bad, but once you play the same guy across several different re-starts, you have to start getting creative with your opening moves because he will have seen them and be ready for them to occur. I do vary my initial invasions some though. Sometimes Aparri gets hit on turn 2-3, or the Legespi invasion will be delayed etc.

Note: The Allies almost always get off the first shot against me anyway. Dang Dutch sub near Malaya almost always pops a torpedo into one of my ships during the night move.

[Dutchgy2000]

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, It was not "They would have noticed" The US and Allies were tracking Japanese ships in SRA. They saw the ones heading for Malaya they were 48 hours from Malaya when war began. The Dutch Commander of ABDA was killed flying to Singapore to consult about when they would take action. The USN had been ordered "when they cross this line war has begun" They had not crossed the line when PH attacked. But if you land on Dec 7 you have to cross the line on Dec 5th!!!!

No need for all the ´!!!!´.. i aggree with you on the point of invasion FLEETS ... but you are not going to tell me they kept track of every single lonely ship in the pacific... not enough planes/ships around to do that even if you somehow do know it´s japanese.


And by the way: `The Dutch Commander of ABDA... ' ... ABDA only came into existence Dec 25th if we wanna get historical.

[Mr.Frag]

True, although those who use the ´stay out of patrol aircraft reach´ argument should not actually allow an attack on Pearl either if they wanna be consistent.

Nice big storm covering them if you remember. [;)]

[mogami]

Hi, I don't think anyone minds if you land on empty island in the Pacific. It is landing on size 4 airfields in the SRA on Dec 7th. Taking them on Dec 8th and having Betty/Nell operating from them on Dec 9th that makes them roll their eyes and say you are playing Star Trek not WW2 in the Pacific.
It is having bombardment and surface TF waiting in the hex for Allied ships in port.
It is having Japanese TF in Allied airspace but beyond range of Japanese CAP

Now in the historic turn 1 this is not a problem The extended move allows the AI a somewhat historic move without taking advantage of anything.

I think my house rules are reasonable and so far they have not limited me in any way.
I set my TF for 4 hexes from their targets. I have my aircraft set to support and fly CAP and i have surface TF in support.

I land on the target on Dec 9th I take it on Dec 10th I move in Betty/Nell on Dec 11th and they fly their first missions on Dec 12th. And all of it without exploiting anything.

[Dutchgy2000]

Along the whole route all the time and suddenly dec 7th they can fly... and the rest of the pacific is all nice and sunny all the time so no cover for anyone else anywhere? .. uhm.. yeah... right ok. [&o]

[moses]

Another issue to this about is risk. The PH attack was risky in the sence that they may have been seen and lost surprise but not in the sence that if they were detected they would have been destroyed.

Japan would never have sent scores of lightly escorted invasion fleets all over the SRA for 2 reasons. Number one, surely at least a few of these would have been sighted no matter how stupid the allies were. Number two is more important. These lightly escorted invasion fleets could have been annihilated. You just don't send 10 transports escorted by a cruser and a couple destroyers to Palembang just because you assume the enemy is to dumb to know they are under attack.

Now if it was just one invasion fleet I could live with it. For instance if my Japanese opponent wants to have one surprise invasion anywhere. So instead of bombing PH he want to land two divisions in ????. So Japan wants to base its whole plan on a surprise invasion of ??Austrailia?? I could live with that. But when you get 20-25 suprise invasions all over the place its just ridiculus.

Its not a non-historical game. Its a complete demonstaration of a players lack of historical possibility.

[Dutchgy2000]

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, I don't think anyone minds if you land on empty island in the Pacific. It is landing on size 4 airfields in the SRA on Dec 7th. Taking them on Dec 8th and having Betty/Nell operating from them on Dec 9th that makes them roll their eyes and say you are playing Star Trek not WW2 in the Pacific.
It is having bombardment and surface TF waiting in the hex for Allied ships in port.
It is having Japanese TF in Allied airspace but beyond range of Japanese CAP

Now in the historic turn 1 this is not a problem The extended move allows the AI a somewhat historic move without taking advantage of anything.

I think my house rules are reasonable and so far they have not limited me in any way.
I set my TF for 4 hexes from their targets. I have my aircraft set to support and fly CAP and i have surface TF in support.

I land on the target on Dec 9th I take it on Dec 10th I move in Betty/Nell on Dec 11th and they fly their first missions on Dec 12th. And all of it without exploiting anything.

I don´t land anywhere i can´t support... playing the devils advocate here... but just because i don´t follow the original plan move by move doesn´t make it is inconceivable it couldn´t have happened that way as someone else said before. Point is i don´t wanna know where you land... how you do it.. or whatever... suprise me.. after all that´s what it is supposed to be... a suprise attack start of the war. To many ´what ifs´ for any situation... i take what i find hapening and make the best of it. If i already know everything i might as well sail the fleet out of Pearl a month early (if the game allowed that) and sail straight into Tokio making the whole argument null and void.

[tsimmonds]

Now if it was just one invasion fleet I could live with it. For instance if my Japanese opponent wants to have one surprise invasion anywhere. So instead of bombing PH he want to land two divisions in ????. So Japan wants to base its whole plan on a surprise invasion of ??Austrailia?? I could live with that. But when you get 20-25 suprise invasions all over the place its just ridiculus.

Its not a non-historical game. Its a complete demonstaration of a players lack of historical possibility.

So what happens is, the guys who go for that kind of thing do PBEM together, and the guys who don't do PBEM together. Everybody has fun. But you gotta discuss these things before starting a PBEM with somebody new. It's kinda like getting married, only more fun.

[Dutchgy2000]

ORIGINAL: moses

Another issue to this about is risk. The PH attack was risky in the sence that they may have been seen and lost surprise but not in the sence that if they were detected they would have been destroyed.

Japan would never have sent scores of lightly escorted invasion fleets all over the SRA for 2 reasons. Number one, surely at least a few of these would have been sighted no matter how stupid the allies were. Number two is more important. These lightly escorted invasion fleets could have been annihilated. You just don't send 10 transports escorted by a cruser and a couple destroyers to Palembang just because you assume the enemy is to dumb to know they are under attack.

Now if it was just one invasion fleet I could live with it. For instance if my Japanese opponent wants to have one surprise invasion anywhere. So instead of bombing PH he want to land two divisions in ????. So Japan wants to base its whole plan on a surprise invasion of ??Austrailia?? I could live with that. But when you get 20-25 suprise invasions all over the place its just ridiculus.

Its not a non-historical game. Its a complete demonstaration of a players lack of historical possibility.

Yep.. but in this case as Japanese supreme commander that risk would be up to me... if i wanna fly 25 unescorted convoys around all over the place for you to easy pick off on the lucky chance one of my landings might work out... let me. (i know.. far stretch of the imagination seeing that supreme command wouldn´t let me.. but on a smaller scale.. why not.. if i think the pay of is big enough). Come on... in the 1930/40´s as japan ´ya just don´t invade china... ya just don´t take over french indo-china... ya just don´t attack Pearl.... etc. etc.

As far as the taking over an airbase and fying missions goes.. i agree that´s unrealistic... not because ya can´t take the base... or fly planes over... but because after one or two sorties ya would be out of payloads.

Oh and btw... once ya attack Pearl and don´t come out with the exact same results as originally then it´s allready a non-historical game.