Ok to Jap Fanboys (and girls) How far will you go!

[mogami]

Hi, I don't think we are talking the same subject here.
I am all in favor of the Japanese having surprise. But to have it he has to stay away from places that would have ruined the element of surprise.
If a Japanese transport TF had moved closer then 4 hexes prior to the first air attack (PH or Manila to pick) The war would have begun before the strike. The Allies would have started it in perfect justifiable manners. USN DD were depth charging German U-boats in Atlantic starting in Sept 1941.
The USA fired when anyone got "inside their space"

To have surprise on Dec 7 you have to stay out side that space. The IJN CV move fast enough that in the day before the war begins (and during the night) They could move
600 miles (or 10 hexes) So there is no issue with them.
A transport TF could only move 240 miles in the same period. (4 hexes) So it would have to had been 2 hexes away at start of Dec 7 turn to land that turn. Going backwards in the PM phase of the dec 6 turn it would have been 6 hexes out. Allied Patrol plane normal range is 9 So TF would have entered normal range (not extended) on Dec 5th (2nd movement phase)(before AM air phase. )
So Japan is claiming that for 2 airphases on Dec 5 3 airphases (counting the night)on Dec 6th and 1 airphase (night) of Dec 7th it has been in range and undetected and still has surprise and Allied player spotting TF on Dec 5 is not permited to issue orders untill he has been "surprised" on Dec 7th.

Allied bases without Patrol planes don't matter but no matter where on map the base is if it has patrol (or aircraft that can fly patrol) and Japan enters their range he should lose surprise all across the map.) And if Allied player is allowed orders on turn 1 the Japanese player will not know in advance what enemy bases have air and what types of air and in what numbers. He will not know the locations of enemy surface ships.

It makes planning Japanese Operations much more realistic (and a lot more fun)

It is easy to plan a turn 1 as Japan if you are out to exploit the movement. Very easy. No thought is required. You just load a unit on a transport and click a target.

[Dutchgy2000]

lol... no..we are talking about the same subject... i already said i agreed with your evaluation.

My point was with the ones that said ANYTHING else then the original targets where out of the question. If i wanna park a huge lightly escorted transport takforce in the middle of nowwhere so in 10 turns i can land them somewhere deep into enemy territory then that should be my choise... however stupid it might seem (and probably is). I never said landing that same taskfoce on a target in turn one was in any way realistic.. i agree with you there. Actually i am all for a free allied set up from the start and make it tottally unpredictable if the game would allow it (within reason... stacking half the british indian army in PI would be a bit much also... lol).. kinda depends when ya were put in charge by the president/emperor now doesnt it... but then again.. why stop there... go back to 1930 and start building up for the war that ya know will start dec 7th (enough to give ya a headache!).

[moses]

Reply to Mogami: Exactly.

Dutchgy2000

Yep.. but in this case as Japanese supreme commander that risk would be up to me...

Except that the first turn rules eliminate all risk. You can take all your bases 100% of the time and the allies have no chance to respond.

Now if the game started on 1 Dec and each turn allies had a probability of detecting each of your TF's and activating then that might entail risk. As it is it's just an exploit.

[Dutchgy2000]

And as a sidenote... you on the other hand assume that every base with patrolplanes does fly patrol... and when they fly patrol they do 100% detect everything... and when they do detect they have a 100% chanche of massing a strike... not very realistic either.

[Dutchgy2000]

yes well... we could go on and on about it... the easy way out would be to say war is al about taking advantage of exploits... but this is a game.. not reality... sure its unrealistic.. but its also unrealistic that on your next turn you slap all you american, british, dutch, australian and so on forces toghether and cordinate your defences as if they were under one single command.

[mogami]

Hi, When you plan the operation you have to assume that every Allied base has a patrol plane and that patrol plane will detect your TF. Anything else is plain crazy. (In real life)
You have to assume Allied CV are about.
That Allied submaries are about
That Allied surface ships are about.

Now if you load a scenario and record where every allied unit is and then you go and enter orders for turn 1 you can look like a genius but all you are is a master exploiter and that term sounds close to what a person who does this is doing. (Gratifiying himself without a partner)

[Dutchgy2000]

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, When you plan the operation you have to assume that every Allied base has a patrol plane and that patrol plane will detect your TF. Anything else is plain crazy. (In real life)
You have to assume Allied CV are about.
That Allied submaries are about
That Allied surface ships are about.

Now if you load a scenario and record where every allied unit is and then you go and enter orders for turn 1 you can look like a genius but all you are is a master exploiter and that term sounds close to what a person who does this is doing. (Gratifiying himself without a partner)

Right up to a point... but as japanese commander i should also be free to make a choise to ´assume´ the risk of being detected.. or loosing half my taskforces... might be worth it in the long run. If i follow your reasoning and assume 100% detectabillity i would never have send the KB anywhere near pearl irl. Now you are asking me to not do some things because i know from the game you don´t have the capability to do anything against them.. your point works both ways... so what kinda war is that?

As long as anyone uses what they would use for a simmilar objective further on in the game i see no problem... the problem only starts when ya load every available SNLF on every available ship and land them on every lightly defended base around.. something ya wouldn´t do later on either.. or then eagain.. really desperate.. i might... got to keep them guessing.

It´s all good and well to pretend ya are blindfolded from the start... but none of us is... we are not 1942 mindset commanders with no idea whats going to happen... and to how many things do i have to keep myself blind?... am i to assume i don´t know anyhting about enemy deploiment and just started a war tottally blind without any intelligence? .. or do i know everything (obviously not... except if anyone looks at the other side as you said.. but after a few games ya pretty well know anyway)... as i said over and over...to many variables to please everyone.

[Dutchgy2000]

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, When you plan the operation you have to assume that every Allied base has a patrol plane and that patrol plane will detect your TF. Anything else is plain crazy. (In real life)
You have to assume Allied CV are about.
That Allied submaries are about
That Allied surface ships are about.

Now if you load a scenario and record where every allied unit is and then you go and enter orders for turn 1 you can look like a genius but all you are is a master exploiter and that term sounds close to what a person who does this is doing. (Gratifiying himself without a partner)

Ok lets assume i follow these rules.. lets see what happens:

plan: I wanna invade ´pick a base´ with a division... taking a 10 ship Tf
1. You have to assume Allied CV are about. --> ok... but i think it´s worth the risk... so i rexpect 50% loss... add 5 more ships and a brigade just to be sure.
2. That Allied submaries are about --> ok.. less atractive... but still worth it in my view... not sure of the capability of allied subs i add another 50%... making it a 20 ship Tf with 2 divisions.
3. That Allied surface ships are about. ---> risky... but i´ll go for it... to be really really sure i end up with a 30 ship transport Tf with 3 divisions and god knows how many escorts.

Now i show up at ´pick a base´ with about 50 ships... and you say... HEY... thats gamey... they would never have done that!! (and i aggree) But duh... i just did that because of all the rules you just imposed on me... and thought it was worth it... so now it turned gamey and i can not do anything at all.

Now i know this is a over the top example... but see how it works both ways?

[mogami]

Hi, I would have just assigned ASW escorts a surface TF and LRCAP

[Freedom205]

The thing that matters (as I see it) is how the allied player is going to handle his forces on turn 2 and after. If he is going to use history as a guide, and pull every ship out of the SRA in 1 ship Tfs, then the Japanese player has every right to use the game to his advantage. Same goes with aircraft, if the allied player pulls out the B-17s and P-40s right away, then he is using history to his advantage.

[mlees]

Ok, so you find one ship... it sees you... turns around or takes a long route home while warning the others with some kinda code... so your ´shaddowing´ warship is out of position and the others land as planned... just one write off... not to bad.

Your counting on every transport CO to be an independent thinker, with clear and precise picture of whats going on in the wide world around him, and who is willing to take initiative and abort the sailing plan without direct orders. Not likely. Possible for a couple of them guys, but not all. Even inside the military, you can find a bunch of commanders who can't make up their mind to save their own skins.

Warship can't be "out of position" in Makassar strait, which, navigationally speaking, is not all that wide in the first place. (20 or so miles max. Visual range.)

Nice try, though.[;)] You as a player have more control over every unit in the game, at all times, than was possible IRL. This gives the (false) impression of military manuevers, and coordination of shipping/airstrikes, as being simple. They weren't. Lookit the US airline system. Close one airport for weather, and the majority of the system from coast to coast is SNAFU'd.

[mogami]

Hi, Is any Allied player winning a single game where the "Sir Robin" is used?
If the Allied player runs from the SRA he pulls the Japanese after him and they are attacking India and Northern Austraila and Noumea And Pago Pago when they should be grinding away at Clark Field or fighting on Java.
If you remove the aircraft and ships the Japanese player does not need them either so they go to Rangoon and Canton Island.

[Freedom205]

But then he is no longer "master of his domain" [:-]



How about the Allied player pulling all ships and as many troops as he can out on turn 2? Would that make him a master exploiter? (of history) Or just another self gratifiyer?

[Dutchgy2000]

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, I would have just assigned ASW escorts a surface TF and LRCAP

Nice... but if you wanna force your opponent to use the way you would have done it ya might as well play yourself and so defeating the whole idea in the first place.

[moses]

Except it doesn't work that way IRL. Transports are pretey slow and if you have 15 to 20 fleets headed to allied bases they will be seen and everything is alerted. Surprise is lost and my ships/planes can start reacting sometime between 3-6 December.

You are taking zero risk on turn one. IRL launching multiple lightly escorted invasions deep into enemy waters would have been unimaginably risky. Plus you get to arrive with a full load of fuel.

As Japan I start very conservativly but still have many opportunities to surprise the allied player. Its not that difficult to exceed the historical rate of advance without the expolits.

[Dutchgy2000]

ORIGINAL: mlees

Ok, so you find one ship... it sees you... turns around or takes a long route home while warning the others with some kinda code... so your ´shaddowing´ warship is out of position and the others land as planned... just one write off... not to bad.

Your counting on every transport CO to be an independent thinker, with clear and precise picture of whats going on in the wide world around him, and who is willing to take initiative and abort the sailing plan without direct orders. Not likely. Possible for a couple of them guys, but not all. Even inside the military, you can find a bunch of commanders who can't make up their mind to save their own skins.

Warship can't be "out of position" in Makassar strait, which, navigationally speaking, is not all that wide in the first place. (20 or so miles max. Visual range.)

Nice try, though.[;)] You as a player have more control over every unit in the game, at all times, than was possible IRL. This gives the (false) impression of military manuevers, and coordination of shipping/airstrikes, as being simple. They weren't. Lookit the US airline system. Close one airport for weather, and the majority of the system from coast to coast is SNAFU'd.

No.. i send my commandder away with the instructions to give warning.. turn back and get the hell out of there as soon as he is spotted (try that in the game).. no need for him to know anything about the world around him.. that IS his direct order.

Well visual range would depend on the weather.. and i havent made a study of that... but how far to take this?... if i abort the Pearl attack irl i can wait for the right weather... because it´s not war yet... oops.

And the coordination was exactly my point... so how come i can´t coordinate a small suprise invasion.. but on the other side if i get detected suddenly the allies expect a fully organised responce because they ´caught me´

[Freedom205]

Myself, if I attack PH, then no invasions other than Batan Island on turn 1. (Wake also if player 2 agrees to it) (cant have a surprise attack and surprise invasions in another time zone, imo)
In my latest game, I hit Manilla instead of PH (prolly not a wise choice) and I do feel I should be able to hit bases in PI and Kuching on turn 1 because of no surprise attack on PH. (didnt pass through any allied zones of control, like the Maccassar strait)
Just my 2 cents worth

[mlees]

The point of all this is, in relation to the Japanese 1st turn bonus in the game, that just because you know they are coming doesn't mean you can do a damn thing about it when your leadership has their thumb up their arse trying to figure out something that should have been planned and practised well in advance.

Agree with your post. Just a note: there were plans, and they were practiced.

Can't explain the leadership failure. I guess it was some kind of mental/emotional shock, and it's duration varied from individual to individual. Mac had it bad, lasted a couple days.

Imagine you go to fire fighting school, train hard, pass. But then during the first real fire your company responds to, your gonna be tripping over your own two feet, until your training finally takes over. Those brass generals and admirals just spent the last twenty or thirty years attending formal dances and such. Now they gotta go out and kill people daily. Requires a little bit of switching gears mentally.

[mlees]

Yep.. but in this case as Japanese supreme commander that risk would be up to me... if i wanna fly 25 unescorted convoys around all over the place for you to easy pick off on the lucky chance one of my landings might work out... let me. (i know.. far stretch of the imagination seeing that supreme command wouldn´t let me.. but on a smaller scale.. why not.. if i think the pay of is big enough). Come on... in the 1930/40´s as japan ´ya just don´t invade china... ya just don´t take over french indo-china... ya just don´t attack Pearl.... etc. etc.

The point is: the turn 1 surprise rule means that there is NO RISK. Jeepers. [:D]Everyone has said they don't mind that you do this as long as you allow the Allied player to react as would be possible IRL. The turn 1 surprise rule prevents that.

[Dutchgy2000]

ORIGINAL: moses

Except it doesn't work that way IRL. Transports are pretey slow and if you have 15 to 20 fleets headed to allied bases they will be seen and everything is alerted. Surprise is lost and my ships/planes can start reacting sometime between 3-6 December.

You are taking zero risk on turn one. IRL launching multiple lightly escorted invasions deep into enemy waters would have been unimaginably risky. Plus you get to arrive with a full load of fuel.

As Japan I start very conservativly but still have many opportunities to surprise the allied player. Its not that difficult to exceed the historical rate of advance without the expolits.

Yeah but as commander pacific of the allies i would also think that a raid on Pearl woud be unimaginably risky... if i didn´t have hindsight now an knew it happened.. that´s the trap. I didn´t say that´s what i do.. i said in some (limited maybe) way it should be possible to be suprised.. whatever ya think about being spotted or not... well.. then irl abort and try again later.. maybe.. or not... no harm done.. its not war yet... but not possible in game terms.