Ok to Jap Fanboys (and girls) How far will you go!

[moses]

Reply to Mike Hall: That seems like a rational first turn.

I might even accept a suprise attack at Numea!! if that was the primary basis of the Japanese players plan. So Japan buts all its eggs into finding some unobtrusive route to get its carriers and transports there unobserved and all other operations are subordinated to this objective.

But you just shouldn't be able to have all these transports screaming down on allied bases all over the SRA, all of them landing near simultaniously and say the allies shouldn't be able to rspond.

Not that you were saying that. This responds to posts of others.

[Dutchgy2000]

ORIGINAL: mlees

Yep.. but in this case as Japanese supreme commander that risk would be up to me... if i wanna fly 25 unescorted convoys around all over the place for you to easy pick off on the lucky chance one of my landings might work out... let me. (i know.. far stretch of the imagination seeing that supreme command wouldn´t let me.. but on a smaller scale.. why not.. if i think the pay of is big enough). Come on... in the 1930/40´s as japan ´ya just don´t invade china... ya just don´t take over french indo-china... ya just don´t attack Pearl.... etc. etc.

The point is: the turn 1 surprise rule means that there is NO RISK. Jeepers. [:D]Everyone has said they don't mind that you do this as long as you allow the Allied player to react as would be possible IRL. The turn 1 surprise rule prevents that.

Lol.. yes... i know (and i don´t know how suddenly i became the focal point here.. i don´t even take advantage of the rules that way.. to causious.. lol) but i only know that from the game rules. In real live i would not know there is no risk! but might be wiling to take the chance and do some stupid landing anyway.. and might irl even pull it off.. who knows... we sure don´t because by saying ´i assume you would have been noticed so ya cant do that because it´s gamey´ ya never let anyone come up with a suprise.

Just beacause irl it might have been possible i was noticed doesn´t make that a certainty either.. it works both ways.

[moses]

ORIGINAL: Dutchgy2000

ORIGINAL: moses

Except it doesn't work that way IRL. Transports are pretey slow and if you have 15 to 20 fleets headed to allied bases they will be seen and everything is alerted. Surprise is lost and my ships/planes can start reacting sometime between 3-6 December.

You are taking zero risk on turn one. IRL launching multiple lightly escorted invasions deep into enemy waters would have been unimaginably risky. Plus you get to arrive with a full load of fuel.

As Japan I start very conservativly but still have many opportunities to surprise the allied player. Its not that difficult to exceed the historical rate of advance without the expolits.

Yeah but as commander pacific of the allies i would also think that a raid on Pearl woud be unimaginably risky... if i didn´t have hindsight now an knew it happened.. that´s the trap. I didn´t say that´s what i do.. i said in some (limited maybe) way it should be possible to be suprised.. whatever ya think about being spotted or not... well.. then irl abort and try again later.. maybe.. or not... no harm done.. its not war yet... but not possible in game terms.

Ok I would say Japan can use KB and associated landing force to hit any single location, or small cluster of bases, anywhere on the map. So if you want to hit Palembang on turn one you send KB and your transports and do it. But no PH now and no other fleets outside your airspace on turn one.

[mlees]

And the coordination was exactly my point... so how come i can´t coordinate a small suprise invasion.. but on the other side if i get detected suddenly the allies expect a fully organised responce because they ´caught me´

Your trying to have it both ways, it seems to me. You want to be able to have surprise invasions (claiming that you should be able to coordinate the scattered 10 or 15 ships sailing independently, and have them arrive on time, on target, without being spotted and identified) insisting that you don't need much coordination, and yet insist that the Allied air units (which are distinct organisational entities that have trained and lived together for many months as a single unit) can't possibly be flying patrols due to lack of coordination or leadership? I don't see how that is a reasonable "might have been".

(Whew! how's THAT for a single run-on sentence?)

Even if they were flying, the Allied player cannot respond to any invasion forces sighted because of the Turn 1 surprise restrictions (these are hard coded, by the way, not house rules).

[mogami]

Hi, I am fairly certain I surprise opponents from time to time.
I plan operations where deception and diversions are important elements.

I've caught USN CV because the Allied player thought he knew where KB was.
I've coaught USN BB by baiting them into ambush
I've made the Allies think a large landing was taking place at a location where nothing but surface combat ships and Betty bombers were

And of course I've been caught as well.

You just don't get "Free" surprise

[Dutchgy2000]

ORIGINAL: moses

ORIGINAL: Dutchgy2000

ORIGINAL: moses

Except it doesn't work that way IRL. Transports are pretey slow and if you have 15 to 20 fleets headed to allied bases they will be seen and everything is alerted. Surprise is lost and my ships/planes can start reacting sometime between 3-6 December.

You are taking zero risk on turn one. IRL launching multiple lightly escorted invasions deep into enemy waters would have been unimaginably risky. Plus you get to arrive with a full load of fuel.

As Japan I start very conservativly but still have many opportunities to surprise the allied player. Its not that difficult to exceed the historical rate of advance without the expolits.

Yeah but as commander pacific of the allies i would also think that a raid on Pearl woud be unimaginably risky... if i didn´t have hindsight now an knew it happened.. that´s the trap. I didn´t say that´s what i do.. i said in some (limited maybe) way it should be possible to be suprised.. whatever ya think about being spotted or not... well.. then irl abort and try again later.. maybe.. or not... no harm done.. its not war yet... but not possible in game terms.

Ok I would say Japan can use KB and associated landing force to hit any single location, or small cluster of bases, anywhere on the map. So if you want to hit Palembang on turn one you send KB and your transports and do it. But no PH now and no other fleets outside your airspace on turn one.

No actually as Japan i would like to pospone or abbort any attack on dec 7th.. thereby not starting any war... take a week or so (ah hell.. make that a year.. lol) to actually place my forces where i want them for the start of the war.. and then take a reasonable action that might have been possible irl and start the war from there.. but oops.. suprise suprise.. the allies suddenly got organised and built up their defences like they knew it was going to happen... yeez.. how ever did they figure out how to prepare for it all of a sudden... it wouldn´t be by taking advantage of what they know now would it? [:'(]

[moses]

Dutchgy2000

In real live i would not know there is no risk!

If your sailing 20 transports escorted by a cruser and a couple of destroyers and your sailing outside of your airspace into the enemies.. Trust me. You know that there's a risk.

Its just not plausable. The enemy can track you for days and if they have a BB within 500 miles you might very well have your entire fleet sunk. A single allied crusier can cause terrible headaches for you as he knows where you are and you don't.

This kind of plan would never even be considered by a professional. Its totally based on the enemy just sitting by and watching your attack. If the enemy responds you die.

[Dutchgy2000]

ORIGINAL: mlees

And the coordination was exactly my point... so how come i can´t coordinate a small suprise invasion.. but on the other side if i get detected suddenly the allies expect a fully organised responce because they ´caught me´

Your trying to have it both ways, it seems to me. You want to be able to have surprise invasions (claiming that you should be able to coordinate the scattered 10 or 15 ships sailing independently, and have them arrive on time, on target, without being spotted and identified) insisting that you don't need much coordination, and yet insist that the Allied air units (which are distinct organisational entities that have trained and lived together for many months as a single unit) can't possibly be flying patrols due to lack of coordination or leadership? I don't see how that is a reasonable "might have been".

(Whew! how's THAT for a single run-on sentence?)

Even if they were flying, the Allied player cannot respond to any invasion forces sighted because of the Turn 1 surprise restrictions (these are hard coded, by the way, not house rules).

No actually we are making the same point.. if one side can make a coordinates effort then so should the other (withing reason.. the start of the war at that perticular time after all had some suprise allement in it) What i was opposing was some people saying you cant do it that organized because my organized forces would have cut you to pieces. Its not like when i start a war i just lump 2 ( i said 2 or 3..not 15 ships btw) ships toghether.. put some men on.. and let them sail out without any preperation. What is the reasoning behind thinking the allies are totally organized to respond.. but the side that actually planned for the war is not able to coordinate?

[mogami]

Hi, I still think the point I am tryin to make is being missed. You can send all your TF out to sea but you could not get close to enemy bases because the turn 1 movement is actually several prior days compressed into 1. If you went to land on Kendari on turn 1 turn 1 would actually be several days before Dec 7. It would begin with Allied bombers attacking the TF when it was still 7 hexes from Kendari. As a result all your surprise attacks would not be surprise attacks. Everyone from one side of the map to the other would have been reacting for several days before Dec 7th. This is what I am speaking about.
To make it work the way it would have been in RL you have to stop all your TF no closer then 4 hexes from enemy base because by the time they got that close they would be under attack. This only has to be true for 1 Japanese TF because time stops (and the other TF's movement) the instant the first Japanese TF is detected.

Because the game has to have a turn 1 and can't go backwards you have to stay 4 hexes out. Now the time space continuum is fixed.

[Dutchgy2000]

ORIGINAL: moses

Dutchgy2000

In real live i would not know there is no risk!

If your sailing 20 transports escorted by a cruser and a couple of destroyers and your sailing outside of your airspace into the enemies.. Trust me. You know that there's a risk.

Its just not plausable. The enemy can track you for days and if they have a BB within 500 miles you might very well have your entire fleet sunk. A single allied crusier can cause terrible headaches for you as he knows where you are and you don't.

This kind of plan would never even be considered by a professional. Its totally based on the enemy just sitting by and watching your attack. If the enemy responds you die.

You are missing the point... i know there is a risk ofcourse irl from my evaluation of starting a war... but irl i might be willing to take that risk and go with that plan anyway (and don´t even go there.. the whole attack on Pearl assumes the enemy is just sitting there).. but then the opponent comes up with.. ´yeah.. but from the game setup you know there isn´t any risk´... ofcourse thats the drawback.. but that means i can´t do anything to any unprepared area just because the allies are unprepared for it in the game and cry foul.

[Dutchgy2000]

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, I still think the point I am tryin to make is being missed. You can send all your TF out to sea but you could not get close to enemy bases because the turn 1 movement is actually several prior days compressed into 1. If you went to land on Kendari on turn 1 turn 1 would actually be several days before Dec 7. It would begin with Allied bombers attacking the TF when it was still 7 hexes from Kendari. As a result all your surprise attacks would not be surprise attacks. Everyone from one side of the map to the other would have been reacting for several days before Dec 7th. This is what I am speaking about.
To make it work the way it would have been in RL you have to stop all your TF no closer then 4 hexes from enemy base because by the time they got that close they would be under attack. This only has to be true for 1 Japanese TF because time stops (and the other TF's movement) the instant the first Japanese TF is detected.

Because the game has to have a turn 1 and can't go backwards you have to stay 4 hexes out. Now the time space continuum is fixed.

No i got your point and aggree.. but only up to a point.. i just think you assuming that EVERYTHING would be noticed (except the Pearl raid odly enough) and there would be no suprise anywhere is just as bad as from the other side assuming NOTHING would be noticed and there would be total suprise everywhere.

[moses]

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, I still think the point I am tryin to make is being missed

Last two of your posts said reply to me but I think I agree with you pretty much completely on this topic. I always have a few details to quibble about.[;)]

Actually I think you should be further than 4 spaces out. Obvious example Numea. Thats why on turn one I have no surface ships more than 4 hexes from my territory except for Wake and PH.

[moses]

ORIGINAL: Dutchgy2000

(and don´t even go there.. the whole attack on Pearl assumes the enemy is just sitting there

No here's where you're wrong. The PH raid does not assume that the U.S. will do nothing. It is a fully escorted attack. They were prepared for the possibility that they might be detected and had the force to prevent a disaster. They hoped and planned for complete surprise as well but they were not risking the easy destruction of their fleet.

Sending lightly escorted transports into enemy airspace is a pure gamble. The allies do not need a coordinated responce to destroy the whole force. They just need a couple combat vessels to get there and you have catastrophy.

[mlees]

What is the reasoning behind thinking the allies are totally organized to respond.. but the side that actually planned for the war is not able to coordinate?

The main reason that the Allies were not organised, IRL, was because the Japanese did not have their invasion forces at sea several days before PH. As Mogami has said, all of the PI/SRA invasion forces did not leave port until after PH, and after the Japanese established air supremacy. You say that, as the head honcho of the Japanese military, you should be allowed to take the risk of launching surprise invasions. OK fine, but with the turn 1 surprise toggle "on", there IS NO RISK. You teleport to the beaches WITH NO RISK. True, IRL the Jap commander would have thought he was taking a risk, but as a player, YOU know there is none. At least, not on turn 1.

If there were sightings of several groups heading for targets in the PI/SRA, the Allies would have responded better to an overt enemy build up. IMO. The Allies have been off and on military alerts for several months before PH. They are not sitting around having clam bakes and playing with unit mascots. War was coming, THAT was no surprise. Exactly when was the question.

[Mr.Frag]

Simple rule for turn #1, If you are *not* using the prescripted one:

Japan player:

All ships must be a minimum of 4 hexes from their destinations. This means they will be subject to air attacks and naval responses prior to landing on turn #2. No landings are permitted at all.

Air attacks can be launched against any *fixed* target anywhere Japan can reach. Ships in port are *NOT* a valid target as it is presumed they would already be moving to intercept/shadow/etc the Japanese fleets. No aircraft can be set to Naval Attack on turn #1/#2

PH is the only exception where anything goes.

Allied player:

Free to do anything with any unit at all *except* those located in PH which must be left in port.

You'll find they keep both sides honest.

As Allied combat ships have a 18 hex move available to them, they are free to interfere with Japan should the Allied player choose to do so. Since this ability exists, Japan will have to actually cover landings with surface assets.

[mogami]

Hi, And while all the TF move at the same time all movement should stop the instant a single TF is discovered where it would have prevoked an Allied response.

Now understand further. When turn 2 begins not all Japanese TF I've moved 4 hexes from enemy base are discovered. I still am going to get a few surprises.
And something even more interesting. I sink more Allied ships on turn 2 and turn 3 using my turn 1 rules then I did when I teleported in testing. Why? Because the Allied player reacts to what he sees on turn 1.
I escort every TF and I stay in aircontrol so the result is I WIN the battles.

[Dutchgy2000]

ORIGINAL: moses

ORIGINAL: Dutchgy2000

(and don´t even go there.. the whole attack on Pearl assumes the enemy is just sitting there

No here's where you're wrong. The PH raid does not assume that the U.S. will do nothing. It is a fully escorted attack. They were prepared for the possibility that they might be detected and had the force to prevent a disaster. They hoped and planned for complete surprise as well but they were not risking the easy destruction of their fleet.

Sending lightly escorted transports into enemy airspace is a pure gamble. The allies do not need a coordinated responce to destroy the whole force. They just need a couple combat vessels to get there and you have catastrophy.

Ok.. i see you wanna get technical.. so let´s be. Count the number of available warships you have available to intercept.. then count the number of warships available for escort. So yes one way around it would be to escort fleets of landingaparties with the heavies and they would be noticed... or spread everything out so that while you are busy chalking up kills the others land (i totally aggree that would be noticed also). None of which practical in game or irl terms... but on a small scale not impossible if someone is willing to risk it. Probem is with the rules it is all or nothing... i can land all over the place unopposed... or i can´t land anywhere i am not supposed to because thats ´gamey´ Makes ya think how they ever pulled of the original landings anyway and not got massacred by those ´highly organized defences´.

[mlees]

Right. I see and agree with both Mogami and Mr. Frag's take on turn 1 (house) rules.

What won't sink into my thick little skull is Dutchgy2000 take on the turn 1 surprise (hard coded toggle) rules. A bit slanted towards the Japanese, IMO. His arguments don't make sense to me, but then again, I am thick, sometimes.

[Dutchgy2000]

ORIGINAL: mlees

What is the reasoning behind thinking the allies are totally organized to respond.. but the side that actually planned for the war is not able to coordinate?

The main reason that the Allies were not organised, IRL, was because the Japanese did not have their invasion forces at sea several days before PH. As Mogami has said, all of the PI/SRA invasion forces did not leave port until after PH, and after the Japanese established air supremacy. You say that, as the head honcho of the Japanese military, you should be allowed to take the risk of launching surprise invasions. OK fine, but with the turn 1 surprise toggle "on", there IS NO RISK. You teleport to the beaches WITH NO RISK. True, IRL the Jap commander would have thought he was taking a risk, but as a player, YOU know there is none. At least, not on turn 1.

If there were sightings of several groups heading for targets in the PI/SRA, the Allies would have responded better to an overt enemy build up. IMO. The Allies have been off and on military alerts for several months before PH. They are not sitting around having clam bakes and playing with unit mascots. War was coming, THAT was no surprise. Exactly when was the question.

lol... this whole tread started out with me agreeing... so yes i agree with all those points! What i don´t agree with is assuming there will be no suprise anywhere. That i know there is no risk anywhere should not force me to not do anything out of the ordinary just as if i would know that there is 90% risk would sometimes (very rarely) not stop any irl operation because the 10% pay off might be worth it. That you can stop any warplans by saying... hey... thats gamey.. i cant do anything about that and you know it! is just as
unrealistic as me landing all over the place just because i know there is no risk in it.

[Dutchgy2000]

ORIGINAL: mlees

Right. I see and agree with both Mogami and Mr. Frag's take on turn 1 (house) rules.

What won't sink into my thick little skull is Dutchgy2000 take on the turn 1 surprise (hard coded toggle) rules. A bit slanted towards the Japanese, IMO. His arguments don't make sense to me, but then again, I am thick, sometimes.

I am not taking on the rule 1 suprise... i dont take advantage of it anyway.. more a planner then a jumping in and let´s see kinda player... but i also dont cry foul when as allied i get swamped all over the place.. its fun trying to save what ya can. What i am against is saying nothing is allowed because i would have noticed.. just as bad as saying everything is allowed because ya cant do anything againt it (in turn one)