Did someone win against the russians using even setting ?

richard_sch · Post by **richard_sch** » Thu Dec 14, 2000 11:09 pm

Hello,
I've tried several times, but I can't beat the russians (I play using the even setting).
I've captured Leningrad, Smolensk, Karkow in 41, but in 42 the russians have to many squads and tanks. Bombing Moscow and Stalingrad doesn't have the effect to reduce russian tank production I would like.
So, I want to know, is there somebody who beat the russians without any tricks, and how did you do that ?

Thanks

Tom1939 · Post by **Tom1939** » Fri Dec 15, 2000 3:38 pm

Hi!

Yes i did beat the original version several times. I just written a 2 page explanation how, but it got lost whe i tried to post it. GRRR. Shortly: concentrate your panzer troops ( 8 oanzer div in a korps)

Tom1939 · Post by **Tom1939** » Fri Dec 15, 2000 3:40 pm

Hi!

Yes i did beat the original version several times. I just written a 2 page explanation how, but it got lost whe i tried to post it. GRRR. Shortly: concentrate your panzer troops ( 8 oanzer div in a korps)

RickyB · Post by **RickyB** » Fri Dec 15, 2000 8:45 pm

Originally posted by Tom1939:
Hi!

Yes i did beat the original version several times. I just written a 2 page explanation how, but it got lost whe i tried to post it. GRRR. Shortly: concentrate your panzer troops ( 8 oanzer div in a korps)

Using the latest and soon to be released version, the readiness penalties for high-density korps will be implemented. The rules mention it but it has never been fully implemented per the rules. Thus, in the latest version, 8 Pz Div in one korps will drop the readiness for a number of the divisions. Also, the special supply cost has been lowered closer to the old value, but it can only be used once per korps/army, so it is tough to bring readiness up high using special supply. This should lower the effectiveness of a killer stack like this.

We are still working on balancing issues in the game engine, as 2 of us are playing a 1941 campaign and it appears to be a little too tough for the Axis compared to history. This is based on the fact that the 2 of us played h2h in the past using 1.13x and had 2 very competitive games switching sides, while in our latest build, the Axis were unable to get closer than about 2 hexes to Leningrad and 3-4 of Moscow. A small tweak, though, and it looks like it will be very balanced. Unfortunately, it takes so long to play-test a h2h game that it is hard to say if things will end up totally balanced or not, but then again was the first one?

------------------
Rick Bancroft
Semper Fi

Yogi Yohan · Post by **Yogi Yohan** » Sat Dec 16, 2000 4:25 am

Yes, I regularly beat the Russians, both with the old game and the new one. In fact, to give more challenge, I decreased the victory point value of Moscow to 1 and made some way east towns objective cities.

For me the keys are:

1) Even if you can't take Moscow, make sure to take Leningrad in the Autumn of 1941, preferably after goading the enemy into commiting strong forces to fight between Tallin and Leningrad. The resulting slaguther of Soviet Armies greatly weaken the enemy in that sector.

2) When the muds set in, STOP and dig in. On any snow turns preceeding the blizzards, you can use your armour to clear the area in front of your main line, but stay entrenched with the Infantry Korps. With some luck, a few turns of blizzard will pass by with the Soviets moving through no-mans land to get at you.

3) After riding out the winter of 1941 in good shape, in the summer of 1942 you're in an excellent position to do what Hitler had intended to do: break the front north of the Don Bend and roll upp the Soviet line from south to north, until you enter Moscow. After that, taking Stalingrad, Saratov or even Gorki should be childs play.

Tom1939 · Post by **Tom1939** » Mon Dec 18, 2000 1:49 pm

Hi!

Maybe I'm wrong, but from my experience it is *very* important to concentrate troops ( 8 panzer division in a korps), and I think it's not unhistorical. In my memory the red army was a master of brute force above all. Maybe it's not typical of the wehrmacht, but breakthrougs should be achived like this. And on the other side, to have killer korps like these you *must* have total air suppriority or you will be punished severly. So I don't think these panzer korps of mine should be considered unfair. For the one special supply per turn I agree with this totally. And even if readiness losses will be suffered, even than I belive that for attack you should use the strongest possible korps.

RickyB · Post by **RickyB** » Mon Dec 18, 2000 9:44 pm

Originally posted by Tom1939:
Hi!

Maybe I'm wrong, but from my experience it is *very* important to concentrate troops ( 8 panzer division in a korps), and I think it's not unhistorical. In my memory the red army was a master of brute force above all. Maybe it's not typical of the wehrmacht, but breakthrougs should be achived like this. And on the other side, to have killer korps like these you *must* have total air suppriority or you will be punished severly. So I don't think these panzer korps of mine should be considered unfair. For the one special supply per turn I agree with this totally. And even if readiness losses will be suffered, even than I belive that for attack you should use the strongest possible korps.

My comments were strictly based on the game manual, which mentions readiness penalties for putting more than a certain number of points in a unit. This wasn't really implemented in the prior versions, or at least not as documented, but it will be now. Historically, more divisions could be and were packed into a hex, but since you cannot split up the divisions in a unit you need to have follow up korps/armies to hold the gap open. I personally have never packed this many division into one unit as the losses can be really high, but it would punch a hole in the lines for sure.

------------------
Rick Bancroft
Semper Fi

Ed Cogburn · Post by **Ed Cogburn** » Tue Dec 19, 2000 10:22 am

Originally posted by Tom1939:
Maybe I'm wrong, but from my experience it is *very* important to concentrate troops ( 8 panzer division in a korps), and I think it's not unhistorical. In my memory the red army was a master of brute force above all. Maybe it's not typical of the wehrmacht, but breakthrougs should be achived like this. And on the other side, to have killer korps like these you *must* have total air suppriority or you will be punished severly. So I don't think these panzer korps of mine should be considered unfair. For the one special supply per turn I agree with this totally. And even if readiness losses will be suffered, even than I belive that for attack you should use the strongest possible korps.

Gods, I wouldn't do that against a human player. Are you playing against just the AI?. With the next version of the game, a super korps will be virtually useless with so much readiness lost due to overstacking. Secondly, the penalty for being out of supply (which is the result of the common tactic used against a "super korps": move around it and cut its supply line, don't fight it directly) is being reduced to only one square of movement per turn, and horrible equipment losses from *8* Panzer Divisions.

ShaiHulud · Post by **ShaiHulud** » Tue Dec 19, 2000 3:53 pm

The key to winning, from either side, is surrounding enemy forces before attacking them. The Sov advantage of numbers is cancelled this way.

Ed Cogburn · Post by **Ed Cogburn** » Wed Dec 20, 2000 10:01 am

Originally posted by ShaiHulud:
The Sov advantage of numbers is cancelled this way.

Only for a little while, say a year and a half. After that, numbers matter.

Tom1939 · Post by **Tom1939** » Wed Dec 20, 2000 1:17 pm

Hi!

Yes, the 8 panzer division tatctics is very risky against human palyers. I played against human a long time ago and it resulted in a world war I standing war because my opponent used my tactics as well. So if someone break through the following counterattack could have easily killed his mighty forces.So nobody dared to attack. And you couldn't allow as germans to lose a such korps. As the soviets maybe you can. The other point is that soviet "super" tank armies are weaker considerably so the german panzer korps might survive a counterattack, but a soviet tank army has very slim chances in a counterattack by a "super" panzer korps. I agree that you should encircle the enemy in this game, but for that you must have a breakthrough first.

Tom1939 · Post by **Tom1939** » Wed Dec 20, 2000 1:25 pm

Hi!

Oh yes, and I always used more than one of such "super" korps, and severe very strong infantry korps to avoid encirclement by lesser troops. And yes, I belive it as well that "super" panzer korps are a way to risky to use against human opponent in offense. But I still believe that they are useable in defence. So in human vs. human it's maybe good that you bring in this stack limits, this strong korpses can freeze a front if you have strong enough infantry, so you dont need to fight only with your panzers. If the opponents infantry korps are killing your infantry these korps wouldn't be enough, they are only good for killing the strongest enemies not all.

Tom1939 · Post by **Tom1939** » Wed Dec 20, 2000 1:30 pm

Hi!

Yes, the 8 panzer division tatctics is very risky against human palyers. I played against human a long time ago and it resulted in a world war I standing war because my opponent used my tactics as well. So if someone break through the following counterattack could have easily killed his mighty forces.So nobody dared to attack. And you couldn't allow as germans to lose a such korps. As the soviets maybe you can. The other point is that soviet "super" tank armies are weaker considerably so the german panzer korps might survive a counterattack, but a soviet tank army has very slim chances in a counterattack by a "super" panzer korps. I agree that you should encircle the enemy in this game, but for that you must have a breakthrough first.

Don Shafer · Post by **Don Shafer** » Thu Dec 28, 2000 3:02 am

8 panzer divisions in a 20 mile area? Where would they all park?