Vals, Why so poor?

[BossGnome]

The Zero was an exellent fighter, the Kate is an above-average torpedo bomber (when compared to the american version with a puny range of 2!), but the Val just doesnt seem to stick up to the Helldiver. At all. I mean, the Helldiver carries 1000 lbs bombs, has armor, and the same range as a Val. Now, I believe the Val might be slightly more maneuverable, but honestly, in combat, I haven't seen that much of a difference between the two types of planes, exept that the Hellidver seems to die less, and drop WAAAYY bigger bombs. My question is: why the heck weren't the japanese able to build better airplanes than Vals? Or are Vals actually good, and I just use them wrong? What is your take on those aircraft?

Thanks

[ZonkerHarris]

The Val was designed in 1937, so it could hardly be expected to equal a Helldiver. Compare the Val to the Dauntless, I think, and the Judy to the Helldiver.

[Hornblower]

ORIGINAL: BossGnome

The Zero was an exellent fighter, the Kate is an above-average torpedo bomber (when compared to the american version with a puny range of 2!), but the Val just doesnt seem to stick up to the Helldiver. At all. I mean, the Helldiver carries 1000 lbs bombs, has armor, and the same range as a Val. Now, I believe the Val might be slightly more maneuverable, but honestly, in combat, I haven't seen that much of a difference between the two types of planes, exept that the Hellidver seems to die less, and drop WAAAYY bigger bombs. My question is: why the heck weren't the japanese able to build better airplanes than Vals? Or are Vals actually good, and I just use them wrong? What is your take on those aircraft?

Thanks

I think this has to be looked at in a certain light.
When you compare the Val to the zero and the Kate, yeah its going to come in 3rd. But, if the val was a product of say china or the Dutch, then you might even say that’s not a bad little product they put out.
the “Val” in the early part of the war was a better plane then the Val of the later part of the war, for a number of reasons.
1- Vals seldom had to attach in a hostile airspace. The zero provided them air superiority in the early part of the war
2- The AA they faced early on (prior to the game updates, so to speak) aren’t what they saw later on are 2 totally different animals.
3- the vals and there pilots were getting @80% hits in the Indian ocean, and that fell off to less then 10% by the time of coral sea and midway. Why? Increased fighter opposition and better AA armed and trained ships.

Japanese realized the Val wasn’t the be-all-end-all, and built the Judy, with grater range, speed and bomb capacity. So really the better comparison is Val vs. Dauntless rather then Val vs Helldiver.

[Nikademus]

I think the Val and SBD matched up pretty well at war's start. The SBD only received self sealers and armor with the SBD-3 IIRC so prior to that model the comparison was even more tight. Even after the -3 it was a matter of trade offs. The Val was nimbler and had better range while the SBD was better armed, more rugged and could carry a 1000lb GP bomb. Both planes were steady in a dive. (The Val sank more Allied ships than any other Japanese naval plane....though the Kate was the bane of enemy capital warships)

Helldiver is a 2nd generation plane, better compared to the Judy vs the now obsolete Val. For all it's stats, i've read that crews general detested the Helldiver and preferred their old Dauntlesses. (The Helldiver was nicknamed, "The Beast") The Helldiver's biggest 'improvement' was that it could lug a 2000lb bombload

[Hornblower]

"The new Helldiver was outshone by the two remaining squadrons of dauntless dive bombers.. Her the dauntless fought her last battle" S.E. Morison on the Battle of The Philippine sea.

[testarossa]

I actually read somewhere that operationally Helldiver cerried lesser bombload than SBD and was very difficult to land and fly. Does anyone have any info on that?

[ChezDaJez]

From what I've read, the Helldiver was a real beast to fly being somewhat unstable in the air, whereas the Dauntless had few flight problems and respond quite well to control inputs.

Chez

[Feinder]

From what I've read, the Helldiver was a real beast to fly being somewhat unstable in the air, whereas the Dauntless had few flight problems and respond quite well to control inputs.

Chez

I've read the same stuff. Having -not- had my coffee yet, I'm just gonna suppose of the top of my head that the HellDiver probably a little underpowered, esp considering that it was much larger, heavier, and larger payload than the Dauntless. I realize HellDiver had a bigger engine (1700hp in HellDiver vs. 1000hp in Dauntless), but it may not have been adaquate.

The Dauntless was even used to suppliment CAP at Coral Sea. Granted, it wasn't all that effective at it. But they would station a few of them low (with the Wildcats high), to intercept the Kates, so the Wildcats didn't have to come down.

-F-

[rtrapasso]

ORIGINAL: Feinder

From what I've read, the Helldiver was a real beast to fly being somewhat unstable in the air, whereas the Dauntless had few flight problems and respond quite well to control inputs.

Chez

I've read the same stuff. Having -not- had my coffee yet, I'm just gonna suppose of the top of my head that the HellDiver probably a little underpowered, esp considering that it was much larger, heavier, and larger payload than the Dauntless. I realize HellDiver had a bigger engine (1700hp in HellDiver vs. 1000hp in Dauntless), but it may not have been adaquate.

The Dauntless was even used to suppliment CAP at Coral Sea. Granted, it wasn't all that effective at it. But they would station a few of them low (with the Wildcats high), to intercept the Kates, so the Wildcats didn't have to come down.

-F-

In the old Grigsby game War in the South Pacific, Dauntless DBs could/would be pressed into CAP when things got tight. They were OK at it against bombers, but heaven help you if/when a lot of Zeros showed up.

[paullus99]

IIRC, carrier crews preferred the Avenger anyway - it could be used as both a torpedo & dive bomber, carriered a larger bombload & could be easily equipped with radar as the war went on.

The Helldiver just took took long to reach active service - the Dauntless did a good enough job & the Avenger was just too good - I think that carriers carried less and less dive bombers as the war went into 1944 & 1945 anyway.

[Toast]

The Japanese essentially sacrificed protection and payload in favor of range and maneuverability. As the war progressed it was realized these trade-offs were very disadvantageous in the combat at the time. The Japanese aircraft industry was definitely second-rate in the 40's and could never produce the more sophisticated machines that the United States and Germany or even the United Kingdom and the Soviet Union were able to produce.

[Nikademus]

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso


In the old Grigsby game War in the South Pacific, Dauntless DBs could/would be pressed into CAP when things got tight. They were OK at it against bombers, but heaven help you if/when a lot of Zeros showed up.

very true. 5 SBD's were shot down over TF 17 at Coral sea while on anti-torpedo plane patrol. The practice was gradually discontinued after Coral Sea as more fighters were shipped aboard the carriers.