Does anybody remember Second Front?

[Randy Stead]

Second Front was the predecessor of War in Russia. I believe it was originally released in the days of the 286 CPU, but I played it on a 386. Against the AI it was possible for the Germans on even settings to knock the Soviets out by the winter of 41! SSI also had a version of this game engine covering the Normandy operation. Just wanted to post this to let others know that this game has a very long lineage in computing terms. :]

[NEON DEON]

Yes. I play second front now. Tried to play
WIR2 But I have major issues with the game as
it stands now. You cannot change out stugs tds and hvy tanks in the new game. At first i was not dissappointed in this till I checked the new specs on the stug. They stink. The transfer units command is screwed up in wir. You can transfer units but it becomes time consuming because a bug stops you from doing this with easy keyboard commands when a division is loaded with 8 units. The downloaded manual gives a listing for tanks and aircraft
that dont meet the specs actually in the game. German bombers can fly to the limit of
thier fuel range without out escort and can
maul the opposing fighters. Not that thier bomb loads will damage anything cause thier
effectiveness has been reduced that of droping paint ballons on the enemy. Supply rules make it near impossible to stop your pz
divisions from losing major quantities of equipment. Unless of course you load them with infantry divisions. The ability to stop
equipment from auto swaping is nice but the restrictions of what u can put where for the most part destroys its usefulness. As far as play testing. Well maybee the game should allow reinforcements from siberia when Moscow
is threatened instead of trying to tweak supply issues till the german cant move.

[Ed Cogburn]

Originally posted by NEON DEON:
Yes. I play second front now. Tried to play WIR2 But I have major issues with the game as it stands now. You cannot change out stugs tds and hvy tanks in the new game.

You cannot change stug battalions (independent or part of a panzer div)
into anything else in the old game too. Same goes for JPZ battalions. This is a historical limitation.

At first i was not dissappointed in this till I checked the new specs on the stug. They stink.

Just goes to show you can't please everyone.

The transfer units command is screwed up in wir. You can transfer units but it becomes time consuming because a bug stops you from doing this with easy keyboard commands when a division is loaded with 8 units.

This is fixed in latest beta version, along with a lot of other bugs.

The downloaded manual gives a listing for tanks and aircraft that dont meet the specs actually in the game.

Yes, the manual is out of date, there's nothing those in the beta team can do about that, since you need a PDF editor to update the manual. Only Matrix itself can solve this problem.

German bombers can fly to the limit of thier fuel range without out escort and can maul the opposing fighters.

Bombers that outnumber a weak type of Russian fighter *could* maul those opposing fighters. However, the later versions of WIR do allow small numbers of experienced fighters to defeat a larger number of good bombers and even a large number of weaker fighters. Its now much more realistic for German fighters.

Not that thier bomb loads will damage anything cause thier effectiveness has been reduced that of droping paint ballons on the enemy.

That's been worked on as well. Bombers do have a significant effect in the current beta versions of WIR.

Supply rules make it near impossible to stop your pz divisions from losing major quantities of equipment.

The amount of equipment losses per turn for units out of supply has been reduced, but the readiness losses are still severe.

Unless of course you load them with infantry divisions.

In the next version, the readiness penalty will be severe for non-mobile units in a korps plotting more than 2 moves. The original game didn't *implement* this restriction believe it or not, even though it was in the manual.

The ability to stop equipment from auto swaping is nice but the restrictions of what u can put where for the most part destroys its usefulness.

As I said, its a historical limitation. JPZ types can only be changed with another JPZ types, Stug types can only be changed with another Stug, and Panzer types can only be replaced with other Panzer tanks.

The numbers of non-Stug battalions being converted to Stugs by the computer is an issue the beta team is trying to deal with.

As far as play testing. Well maybee the game should allow reinforcements from siberia when Moscow is threatened instead of trying to tweak supply issues till the german cant move.

Supply changes have not been made with the purpose of restricting the Germans. In fact, the next version reinstates the month of supply level 8 that the Germans had at the beginning of the original Campaign '41.

Play testing is difficult with a game that takes so much time per turn for both sides. Our beta team has less than two dozen testers on it, that's why we need to partially rely on you and the open WIR forum for help.

[NEON DEON]

In Second Front you can change any tank with
any tank. Ie: stug IIIb with pzIIIh in a stug bn. Now this is un historical but unrealistic? If you can produce pzs, instead
of tds wouldnt you do it?? If you can produce
tigers instead of pzIVs, wouldnt you do that.
If you gave Rommel a choice between a a jpzI
and a pzIIIh, which vehicle would he choose?

[Ed Cogburn]

Originally posted by NEON DEON:
In Second Front you can change any tank with any tank. Ie: stug IIIb with pzIIIh in a stug bn. Now this is un historical but unrealistic? If you can produce pzs, instead
of tds wouldnt you do it?? If you can produce
tigers instead of pzIVs, wouldnt you do that.
If you gave Rommel a choice between a a jpzI
and a pzIIIh, which vehicle would he choose?

Oh there's a lot of unhistorical things like this in the game. Pz divisions get too many battalions because the game assumes each battalion uses only one type of AFV. The Finns aren't restricted in what they do, when historically they very much were restricted, and never joined the Germans in combined assaults. There's all kinds of problems like these two. GG decided that Second Front was too unrealistic, so he tightened things up in WiR, forcing the player to use the three main pieces of equipment, Panzer, Stug, and JPZ.

I won't mind if one day Matrix makes a WiR v3, and they give you the freedom you got from Second Front, but there is a limit that you reach when you start doing unhistorical things with production, and military organization. At some point the game becomes totally disconnected from any shred of reality, and I lose interest in it. I want to live under the same realities and restrictions that the commander I'm emulating had to deal with. That's more of a challenge, and you get the feeling that you're playing a simulation of the real thing instead of a bizzare exercise in number crunching.


[This message has been edited by Ed Cogburn (edited December 25, 2000).]

[NEON DEON]

Guess ill just have to get used to the new supply rules.)

[shane056]

I purchased "Second Front" for my commodore Amiga computer many many years ago from Amilight in Perth Western Australia, and found it to be a great game. But alas as I got more and more proficient with it I found it all to easy to beat the AI (who always played the Soviet side) even with the maximun help setting for the Soviet side.
So I ended up learning how to hack both the binary game and data files, mostly the data files, to give the AI even more of a chance to resist me, and present me with more of a challenge.
The end result was that no matter how I tried to stack the odds in favour of the AI, it was never the challenge I craved for, so after a few years of persevering with it and programming my own version of the game in Blitz Basic for the Amiga (not completed), I consigned the game to the back of the store cupboard with the others.
Then along came WiR, and my interest and enthusiasm has again been re-kindled. One thing "Second Front" did for me was to teach me the mechanics of how to play the game... I now enjoy playing WiR especially against human opponents.
The AI in WiR is only slightly better than the AI for Second Front, as it is still reasonably easy to beat the Soviets in 1941 at an even setting. I hope the AI gets a much needed overhaul for the next release of this good strategy game, as it is not always possible to secure human opponents, speaking of which, anyone want to play against me in WiR, I'II play either side... Shane

[Ed Cogburn]

Originally posted by shane056:
I hope the AI gets a much needed overhaul for the next release of this good strategy game, as it is not always possible to secure human opponents, speaking of which, anyone want to play against me in WiR, I'II play either side... Shane

Don't count on it. There are a few AI bugs that need to be fixed, but there is not likely to be much work done on the AI, partly because the AI code is the most complex and difficult part of the game, and partly because I suspect Matrix has bigger fish to fry than to keep working on a game they aren't making any profit off of.

[shane056]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by shane056:
I hope the AI gets a much needed overhaul for the next release of this good strategy game, as it is not always possible to secure human opponents, speaking of which, anyone want to play against me in WiR, I'II play either side... Shane
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

posted by Ed Cogburn...
Don't count on it. There are a few AI bugs that need to be fixed, but there is not likely to be much work done on the AI, partly because the AI code is the most complex and difficult part of the game, and partly because I suspect Matrix has bigger fish to fry than to keep working on a game they aren't making any profit off of.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is one of the very reasons why in a past reply of mine, I stated that serious consideration should be given to free sourcing the code for this free game, so that the collective talent that exists out there in cyber space can continue to develop and further improve this excellent game.

I'm amazed that Matrix have persevered as long as they have with developing a game that brings in no income for them, and if this is to be the last update released by them for this good strategy game, then again serious consideration must be given for the games continuing development by the latent talent out there in cyber space.

Otherwise without continuing support, this game will eventually go the way of second front, dinosaurs, and eight track music, withering on the vine and dying off.... Shane

[VictorH]

Originally posted by shane056:
I purchased "Second Front" for my commodore Amiga computer many many years ago from Amilight in Perth Western Australia, and found it to be a great game. But alas as I got more and more proficient with it I found it all to easy to beat the AI (who always played the Soviet side) even with the maximun help setting for the Soviet side.
So I ended up learning how to hack both the binary game and data files, mostly the data files, to give the AI even more of a chance to resist me, and present me with more of a challenge.
The end result was that no matter how I tried to stack the odds in favour of the AI, it was never the challenge I craved for, so after a few years of persevering with it and programming my own version of the game in Blitz Basic for the Amiga (not completed), I consigned the game to the back of the store cupboard with the others.
Then along came WiR, and my interest and enthusiasm has again been re-kindled. One thing "Second Front" did for me was to teach me the mechanics of how to play the game... I now enjoy playing WiR especially against human opponents.
The AI in WiR is only slightly better than the AI for Second Front, as it is still reasonably easy to beat the Soviets in 1941 at an even setting. I hope the AI gets a much needed overhaul for the next release of this good strategy game, as it is not always possible to secure human opponents, speaking of which, anyone want to play against me in WiR, I'II play either side... Shane

Do you still have the source code? Would you be willing to post it or send it to me?

[VictorH]

Originally posted by Ed Cogburn:

Don't count on it. There are a few AI bugs that need to be fixed, but there is not likely to be much work done on the AI, partly because the AI code is the most complex and difficult part of the game, and partly because I suspect Matrix has bigger fish to fry than to keep working on a game they aren't making any profit off of.

If Matrix isn't willing to "Open Source" or can't do so because of the deal wit SSI, could a subsciption deal be set up? In other words, could us developers in the ether pay a subscription to make changes to the code? Then give the code back to Matrix?


[This message has been edited by VictorH (edited December 30, 2000).]

[Ed Cogburn]

Originally posted by VictorH:
If Matrix isn't willing to "Open Source" or can't do so because of the deal wit SSI, could a subsciption deal be set up? In other words, could us developers in the ether pay a subscription to make changes to the code? Then give the code back to Matrix?

Before going further, I do not speak for Matrix, nor do I work for them.

The problem with this Victor is the mindset of open-source programmers. If I were one, I would not sign any kind of deal with Matrix that resulted in my work becoming their proprietary work, and giving them profits at my expense. My work could only be part of an open-source effort, which benefits everyone instead of just one party. I strongly suspect few programmers would buy into that subscription idea, because it goes against their principles. I come to this conclusion after witnessing many discussions in the "Linux community" (mailing lists, newsgroups, websites like slashdot.org & linuxtoday.com, etc) about the essence of what is "open-source" and what is "free software".


[This message has been edited by Ed Cogburn (edited December 31, 2000).]

[VictorH]

Originally posted by Ed Cogburn:
Before going further, I do not speak for Matrix, nor do I work for them.

The problem with this Victor is the mindset of open-source programmers. If I were one, I would not sign any kind of deal with Matrix that resulted in my work becoming their proprietary work, and giving them profits at my expense. My work could only be part of an open-source effort, which benefits everyone instead of just one party. I strongly suspect few programmers would buy into that subscription idea, because it goes against their principles. I come to this conclusion after witnessing many discussions in the "Linux community" (mailing lists, newsgroups, websites like slashdot.org & linuxtoday.com, etc) about the essence of what is "open-source" and what is "free software".


[This message has been edited by Ed Cogburn (edited December 31, 2000).]

I wasn't thinking of Matrix profiting off this. I was thinkng of the code being available from Matrix's site for everyone. Then any new code could be added to the site. Since I'm not privy to the license agreement, I was just dreaming up ways Matrix could make the code available. It would be a boon to Matrix to make the WIR code available like that. Good will amongst the wargame community could go a long way towards driving a stake through Talonsoft's heart! Since I've heard matix has no plans to release a WIR remake, this would be a great game for them to release as an open source project.

[Ed Cogburn]

Originally posted by VictorH:
Since I've heard matix has no plans to release a WIR remake, this would be a great game for them to release as an open source project.

I agree with you Victor, I'm just a lot more cynical about SSI. I'm convinced they won't release any source code to any game that was sucessfull, and that includes Gary's first version of WIR, never mind the second version.

[VictorH]

Originally posted by Ed Cogburn:

I agree with you Victor, I'm just a lot more cynical about SSI. I'm convinced they won't release any source code to any game that was sucessfull, and that includes Gary's first version of WIR, never mind the second version.

You have even more of a reason to be cynical now that Mattel owns SSI. I wonder how David H. got them to give up the licenses for WIR and PacWar in the first place?



[This message has been edited by VictorH (edited January 01, 2001).]