Stacking: please think about it again!

Tom1939 · Post by **Tom1939** » Mon Jan 22, 2001 1:34 pm

HI!

Now the kind people in this forum answered my question about stacking limits. And
I have a big problem. The soviet side has something like 5 tank armies and 5 shock armies in the old version, if played with human control, maybe a 6th tank army latter in the game but I'm not sure. I have tried this version of the game and rolled it on to 45. The soviets have 48 tank or mechanized corps if counted right, to this they have 3 tank and 5 shock armies. In this they can have 24 (8*3) tank or mech div. This is way too low. So the soviets cannot mass their armor properly. This is not a problem with the germans. I think it is unhistorical. I have two suggestions. First give the soviets lot more shock armies and at least 8 tank armies. Second give higher stacking limits for armored korps (tank,panzer,shock). I think they should have the same amount of armored units as infantry korps infantry units. After all they shoul rule the battlefield. I can understand that my super panzer korps was unhistorical, but this is opposite know. A panzer korps with 3 panzer division is barely stronger than an 5 rifle division soviet army. 12 stacking point for armored units I say. Hope I could help.

Ed Cogburn · Post by **Ed Cogburn** » Tue Jan 23, 2001 12:40 pm

Originally posted by Tom1939:
Now the kind people in this forum answered my question about stacking limits. And
I have a big problem. The soviet side has something like 5 tank armies and 5 shock armies in the old version, if played with human control, maybe a 6th tank army latter in the game but I'm not sure. I have tried this version of the game and rolled it on to 45. The soviets have 48 tank or mechanized corps if counted right, to this they have 3 tank and 5 shock armies.

I ran the latest beta version to 1/8/45 and the Soviets still have 5 shock and 5 tank armies. So if it isn't in the currently released version it will be in the next one.

In this they can have 24 (8*3) tank or mech div. This is way too low. So the soviets cannot mass their armor properly.

Well this idea could be debated. I would say the Soviets *shouldn't* be allowed to mass their tanks like the Germans or Western Allies would because its ahistorical. Soviet combat doctrine was different, they didn't execute deep penetrations into the enemy's rear area like the Germans and US forces could do. They could do limited encirclements like collapsing the sides of a bulge like at Stalingrad, but not the free-wheeling charges like Manstein in France in '40, or Patton in France in '44. There army, for all its size and power of '44-'45, just wasn't that flexible.

Second give higher stacking limits for armored korps (tank,panzer,shock). I think they should have the same amount of armored units as infantry korps infantry units.

Is there any evidence that 10 stacking points is not enough? It allows 3 tank divisions and one motorized division, and that sounds about right too me.

After all they shoul rule the battlefield.

...

A panzer korps with 3 panzer division is barely stronger than an 5 rifle division soviet army.

By late '44, a full strength soviet infantry army *should* be strong enough to hold off a panzer corps for a while. Why do you think the Germans never launched any major offensives against the Russians in the last two years of the war? Germany had the initial advantages because the Soviet army was in a shambles, but by '44 the Soviets had their act together, making a 5 full-strength division infantry corps a major force to tackle, thus making easy penetrations by even massed panzers unlikely.

Tom1939 · Post by **Tom1939** » Tue Jan 23, 2001 5:20 pm

HI!

I read the manual now, and the panzer korps have 9 stacking points (3 panzer division). The truth might be somewhere betwen us. You are right about the red army until 44. But Bagration (44 suumer offense name if I recall correctly) was preatty deep and fast attack with large armor concentration. What about displaying this progress of the soviets in the game. Like 3 tank armies in 42, 2 more in 43, 3 more in 44. But I do think more shock armies are needed for historical accuracy. Not to mobile but very strong. This should write down the soviets in 42-43 well.

Ed Cogburn · Post by **Ed Cogburn** » Wed Jan 24, 2001 10:21 am

Originally posted by Tom1939:
HI!

I read the manual now, and the panzer korps have 9 stacking points (3 panzer division). The truth might be somewhere betwen us.

It was 9 originally, but it was changed later to 10 in one of GG's unofficial updates IIRC. The manual hasn't been updated (and probably won't be).

Like 3 tank armies in 42, 2 more in 43, 3 more in 44.

Its a good idea, but I think we're beyond the point where major changes are being contemplated for the update. Arnaud is in a strictly bug-fix-only mode.

I did forget to mention the "Mobile Groups" units. They appear in the later scenarios, but in the '41 campaign they never show up. This has been brought up, but not resolved at this point AFAIK. If we get those added, that'll nearly double the number of tank armies for the Soviets.

Teppo Saarinen · Post by **Teppo Saarinen** » Sat Feb 03, 2001 8:03 am

Has anyone got any historical info on these Mobile Groups? I mean are they actually applicable as army size units? I remember reading once about the use of a "Mobile Group" in the Karelian isthmus in summer '44 and in that text it was described as a Kampfgruppe type unit for fast encirclements & exploitation.

Yours, Teppo

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RickyB · Post by **RickyB** » Sat Feb 03, 2001 10:50 am

Originally posted by Teppo Saarinen:
Has anyone got any historical info on these Mobile Groups? I mean are they actually applicable as army size units? I remember reading once about the use of a "Mobile Group" in the Karelian isthmus in summer '44 and in that text it was described as a Kampfgruppe type unit for fast encirclements & exploitation.

Yours, Teppo

Hi Teppo,

I believe that the Mobile Groups are used in the game to represent groups of Soviet armored/mech units that were actually part of infantry armies, or provide extra 5 plot HQs for scenarios and for the AI, rather than historical units. The reason I think this is that in the Stalingrad/Uranus scenario, for example, there is a Soviet Mobile group HQ used south of Stalingrad itself, containing a tank corps and mechanized corps. I believe these two corps were both mech corps under two different armies - the 51st and 57th, which in the game can only plot 2 hexes, and there were no tank armies deployed south of Stalingrad historically. Thus, I am guessing the Mobile Group was used in the scenario to hold these two units so that the Don river could be reached on the first turn to match history - otherwise the ring couldn't be closedfor at least 2 turns. I could easily be wrong on this though.

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Rick Bancroft
Semper Fi

[This message has been edited by RickyB (edited February 03, 2001).]

Martinov · Post by **Martinov** » Sat Feb 17, 2001 1:53 pm

In mid-44 the soviets had 48 infantry armies deployed on the main front (79 total) which contained about 405 rifle/cav divisions (as this works out to about 8 per army, perhaps the WIR stacking rating is a little harsh and should be raised to 6 or so). Heavily reinforced armies might be temporarily designated "Shock".

They also had 6 tank armies (the peak that I've heard of) but I think I read that "groups" as per WIR did were created from time to time.

Cavalry divisions were small, about 1/3 to 1/2 the size of a rifle division. A better way to portray cavalry in WIR might be to have cavalry in corps instead of divisions (unless it already is?), these might weigh around 450 squads, but have same stacking value, making them "different". Might also make some room for more other soviet div's.