bugs in WiR 3.0

Mist · Post by **Mist** » Thu Feb 22, 2001 3:51 am

I were playing comp vs. comp and found that:
there are strange messages occuring sometimes while USAAF strategic bombing missions
1) "no
sustains light damage" This is when bombers fly from the south
2) "X tank Bde is renamed to
X Guards Tank Bde" this happens pretty often when bombers come from GB upon the certain city in NW Germany.
Also, I've noticed that AI air missions are sometimes aborted and "Not allowed" message is displayed.
Whole game is very fine and seems more balanced. Thank you very much!

[This message has been edited by Mist (edited February 21, 2001).]

RickyB · Post by **RickyB** » Thu Feb 22, 2001 5:27 am

Originally posted by Mist:
I were playing comp vs. comp and found that:
there are strange messages occuring sometimes while USAAF strategic bombing missions
1) "no
sustains light damage" This is when bombers fly from the south
2) "X tank Bde is renamed to
X Guards Tank Bde" this happens pretty often when bombers come from GB upon the certain city in NW Germany.
Also, I've noticed that AI air missions are sometimes aborted and "Not allowed" message is displayed.
Whole game is very fine and seems more balanced. Thank you very much!
[This message has been edited by Mist (edited February 21, 2001).]

Thanks for the feedback, Mist. Appreciate hearing it. Regarding the X Brigade, is the X an actual number or does it show the X? If it is a number, that is a correct message. If an X, what scenario were you playing?

The Not Allowed message may be okay also, but I am not sure. Thanks again for the information.

------------------
Rick Bancroft
Semper Fi

tsbond · Post by **tsbond** » Thu Feb 22, 2001 5:49 am

The only time I got not allowed was after I moved my HQ and then tried to bomb something or of course if I try to bomb from or at GHQ or RVGK.

Ed Cogburn · Post by **Ed Cogburn** » Thu Feb 22, 2001 1:11 pm

Originally posted by tsbond:
The only time I got not allowed was after I moved my HQ and then tried to bomb something or of course if I try to bomb from or at GHQ or RVGK.

You have to fly your missions before moving the HQ, but that doesn't explain the "Not Allowed" message as I'm not seeing it. Hmmm...

Mist · Post by **Mist** » Thu Feb 22, 2001 2:15 pm

Originally posted by RickyB:
Thanks for the feedback, Mist. Appreciate hearing it. Regarding the X Brigade, is the X an actual number or does it show the X? If it is a number, that is a correct message. If an X, what scenario were you playing?
The Not Allowed message may be okay also, but I am not sure. Thanks again for the information.

X is a number. As for 'not allowed' message, it appears in computer play, so I suspect there is a minor bug in AI coding.
What can you say about 'no sustains light damage' message?

RickyB · Post by **RickyB** » Thu Feb 22, 2001 8:13 pm

Originally posted by Mist:

X is a number. As for 'not allowed' message, it appears in computer play, so I suspect there is a minor bug in AI coding.
What can you say about 'no sustains light damage' message?

I think the Guard Tank Brigade message is okay, unless you are saying it happens during the bombing phase. If so, what city is it tied to? Like Ed, I have never seen the Not Allowed during the bombing phase as I have been playing head to head for awhile now - sounds fairly minor from your description I guess, but it will be passed on.

As to the other, I have not clue. Are the bombers being hit hard, and thus not dropping any bombs on target? Even that I have had happen without the message you are seeing. What delay and display settings are you using?

Thanks for the details.

------------------
Rick Bancroft
Semper Fi

Mist · Post by **Mist** » Fri Feb 23, 2001 12:22 am

Originally posted by RickyB:
I think the Guard Tank Brigade message is okay, unless you are saying it happens during the bombing phase.

tank bde is ok, sorry. It just remains shown when those bombers come.

If so, what city is it tied to? Like Ed, I have never seen the Not Allowed during the bombing phase as I have been playing head to head for awhile now - sounds fairly minor from your description I guess, but it will be passed on.

I try to reproduce this 'not allowed' thingie, but still fail. It appeared once or twice in the first turns of barbarossa during Soviets turn. I will let you know details if reveal something more about that.

As to the other, I have not clue. Are the bombers being hit hard, and thus not dropping any bombs on target? Even that I have had happen without the message you are seeing. What delay and display settings are you using?

I use no delay/display settings, because I have not much time to look at the whole campain in details and I hit a pause I want to look at something more closely.
So, I have no idea about bomber losses. But I am more sure than not sure about that weird message. My speculations led me to conclude that there can be an empty city without factories. If it is bombed, then factory of _no_ sustains damage. BTW, today I saw 'City sustains damage' message. That is for sure. Is it ok?
I discovered one more bug which was in the previous versions also. Player still can rail transfer units from invalid(no operative railroad) location. My panzer korps was reinforced by infantry division in the begining of 1st pulse(*grrr*). It advanced along the railroad and I was able to rail transfer infantry back safely when my turn had come. It is easy to reproduce.

[This message has been edited by Mist (edited February 22, 2001).]

RickyB · Post by **RickyB** » Fri Feb 23, 2001 8:26 am

Originally posted by Mist:
I use no delay/display settings, because I have not much time to look at the whole campain in details and I hit a pause I want to look at something more closely.
So, I have no idea about bomber losses. But I am more sure than not sure about that weird message. My speculations led me to conclude that there can be an empty city without factories. If it is bombed, then factory of _no_ sustains damage. BTW, today I saw 'City sustains damage' message. That is for sure. Is it ok?
I discovered one more bug which was in the previous versions also. Player still can rail transfer units from invalid(no operative railroad) location. My panzer korps was reinforced by infantry division in the begining of 1st pulse(*grrr*). It advanced along the railroad and I was able to rail transfer infantry back safely when my turn had come. It is easy to reproduce.

[This message has been edited by Mist (edited February 22, 2001).][/B]

The message about City sustains damage is an old one related to a city being bombed without any active factories - I have gotten this one when all factories are out of action already, or there just aren't any present. I have no clue where the No sustains light damage is coming from.

Rail issues, although not the specific one you mentioned, were one of the things Arnaud did not get fixed, because the code was difficult to find and the time to fix it seemed too much. He wants to fix these issues - there were 4 or 5 different ones left - in the next update.

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Rick Bancroft
Semper Fi

Ed Cogburn · Post by **Ed Cogburn** » Fri Feb 23, 2001 1:30 pm

Originally posted by Mist:
I try to reproduce this 'not allowed' thingie, but still fail. It appeared once or twice in the first turns of barbarossa during Soviets turn. I will let you know details if reveal something more about that.

I'll bet the "Not allowed" message is related to not having enough operations points to make the move or transfer. It is very likely to happen to the Soviets in the early turns because of their lack of OPs. It would be nice if the error message actually said this wouldn't it?

PMCN · Post by **PMCN** » Fri Feb 23, 2001 4:07 pm

I noticed a bug-error in the reporting of bombing results. Sometimes the message that shows up saying the number of tons of bombs dropped does not agree with the after combat results. I had a airfield attack where what showed up as a message was a few tons dropped (this was the 3rd Rummian Army's starting BR20 group bombing the southern Front) and little effect but in the combat result summary I got significantly more tonnage and russian losses.

Mist · Post by **Mist** » Sat Feb 24, 2001 5:49 am

Originally posted by Paul McNeely:
I noticed a bug-error in the reporting of bombing results. Sometimes the message that shows up saying the number of tons of bombs dropped does not agree with the after combat results. I had a airfield attack where what showed up as a message was a few tons dropped (this was the 3rd Rummian Army's starting BR20 group bombing the southern Front) and little effect but in the combat result summary I got significantly more tonnage and russian losses.

I also regulary see that thing. Tonage is doubled, do not know about losses.

PMCN · Post by **PMCN** » Sat Feb 24, 2001 12:11 pm

I had two occurances of the teleporting army last night. In two combats in the same turn I forced a retreat then the AI 'ported in another army group to that location. I didn't save the file, but let me know if a saved file would help and I will if it happens again.

Ed Cogburn · Post by **Ed Cogburn** » Sat Feb 24, 2001 2:11 pm

Originally posted by Paul McNeely:
I had two occurances of the teleporting army last night. In two combats in the same turn I forced a retreat then the AI 'ported in another army group to that location. I didn't save the file, but let me know if a saved file would help and I will if it happens again.

We know about this AI bug. Its at the top of the AI Buglist. However the programmer has difficulty since this code is undocumented and the most complex code in the game. Changes to the AI will come later, perhaps much later. We all want to play the game some now before making any more changes.

RickyB · Post by **RickyB** » Sat Feb 24, 2001 8:36 pm

Originally posted by Paul McNeely:
I had two occurances of the teleporting army last night. In two combats in the same turn I forced a retreat then the AI 'ported in another army group to that location. I didn't save the file, but let me know if a saved file would help and I will if it happens again.

As Ed said, that is on Arnaud's list. What we found out is happening is that the AI already has the 2 corps in the same hex before combat, so it is not creating the second on the fly - it is already there. The advantage to this, if there is one, is that you can surround both units and take them out together. The doubling up does not always happen in critical areas, fortunately, so it is a fairly minor issue overall, just very weird.

------------------
Rick Bancroft
Semper Fi

StratMan · Post by **StratMan** » Sat Feb 24, 2001 10:39 pm

Originally posted by RickyB:

Originally posted by Paul McNeely:
I had two occurances of the teleporting army last night. In two combats in the same turn I forced a retreat then the AI 'ported in another army group to that location. I didn't save the file, but let me know if a saved file would help and I will if it happens again.

As Ed said, that is on Arnaud's list. What we found out is happening is that the AI already has the 2 corps in the same hex before combat, so it is not creating the second on the fly - it is already there. The advantage to this, if there is one, is that you can surround both units and take them out together. The doubling up does not always happen in critical areas, fortunately, so it is a fairly minor issue overall, just very weird.

I have not had the time to check out the new version yet. But I distinctly remember playing the Russians against the old AI in version 2.1 . The AI teleported an entire Panzer Korps behind my forward lines in front of Moscow during October and September, during September I found two entire Panzer Korps behind my lines. I had had no breach in my line where they turned up so that was'nt it. Scotty must be working for the Axis AI I think. (beam me up scotty). Did not really hurt to much because they were forced to be supplied by air, yeah right two entire Panzer Korps, I anniliated them in two weeks, problem was it caused me to use my few and far between reserves. Incidently, Berlin fell march 43.
The StratMan.

RickyB · Post by **RickyB** » Sat Feb 24, 2001 10:56 pm

Originally posted by StratMan:
I have not had the time to check out the new version yet. But I distinctly remember playing the Russians against the old AI in version 2.1 . The AI teleported an entire Panzer Korps behind my forward lines in front of Moscow during October and September, during September I found two entire Panzer Korps behind my lines. I had had no breach in my line where they turned up so that was'nt it. Scotty must be working for the Axis AI I think. (beam me up scotty). Did not really hurt to much because they were forced to be supplied by air, yeah right two entire Panzer Korps, I anniliated them in two weeks, problem was it caused me to use my few and far between reserves. Incidently, Berlin fell march 43.
The StratMan.

I'd forgotten who brought that one up-that was a good one and the AI does it from both sides at the switch in weather turns. It is probably still in there also, as Arnaud couldn't find enough hints as to where to look for it, and it is strictly an AI issue. He plans to fix both of these after he rests for awhile and plays the creation a little bit.

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Rick Bancroft
Semper Fi

Mist · Post by **Mist** » Sun Feb 25, 2001 12:34 am

The game crashed suddenly when I were changing replacement rate for AGS. It was 50, I increased it to 80 and pressed + on the numeric pad once more. Crash had thrown me back into my program shell. I doubt I can reproduce this one at will, but probably my report will make more complete pattern with others.
Tnank you very much! I love this game despite of all bugs and just hope to make what I can to make your great efforts little bit easier.

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'I ve got blisters on my fingers!!!!'
Ringo Star

shane056 · Post by **shane056** » Sun Feb 25, 2001 7:23 pm

The PBEM is still non functional, as I have discovered that in a game saved under PBEM, that I am playing, that whilst deploying the soviet forces, and then saving the game, to leave it for a while, and then, on coming back and loading it up, all my moved armies have had the readiness
of their units, and their entrenchment levels increased, plus all my HQ's
have had their OP points topped back up, and the units in them have had
their readiness levels also increased, and any transferred air units, no longer have "t" alongside them, but are now available for immediate use, plus I also keep getting a full allocation of rail points returned.
The game cannot be played via PBEM, under these conditions, as there would be no way the axis would get beyond second base, so to speak.... Shane PS...Thankyou to all for this update to a great game...

RickyB · Post by **RickyB** » Sun Feb 25, 2001 9:38 pm

Originally posted by shane056:
The PBEM is still non functional, as I have discovered that in a game saved under PBEM, that I am playing, that whilst deploying the soviet forces, and then saving the game, to leave it for a while, and then, on coming back and loading it up, all my moved armies have had the readiness
of their units, and their entrenchment levels increased, plus all my HQ's
have had their OP points topped back up, and the units in them have had
their readiness levels also increased, and any transferred air units, no longer have "t" alongside them, but are now available for immediate use, plus I also keep getting a full allocation of rail points returned.
The game cannot be played via PBEM, under these conditions, as there would be no way the axis would get beyond second base, so to speak.... Shane PS...Thankyou to all for this update to a great game...

Shane,

Thanks for that tidbit of information. Never thought about quitting out and going back in as always tried to get a turn done, but I know when not testing the game I might do this. There must still be a problem with where the game is re-entering on start, even when it is part way through a turn. We will make a note of it for fix in the update that Arnaud should do later on.

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Rick Bancroft
Semper Fi

Yogi Yohan · Post by **Yogi Yohan** » Mon Feb 26, 2001 1:01 pm

I know losses is a problem with this game, but those incurred by German forces seem excessive after 1941, especially on the defense.

Take a case where a Soviet 2:1 infantry attack is repulsed by a German Infantry Korps in the summer of 1942. The Germans are supported by bombers and the Soviet are not. You'd expect much heavier Soviet casualties than German but they are usually roughly equal or even somewhat larger for the Germans.

There must be something wrong with the combat routines. Maybe they do not take experience into account properly? One idea for tweaking would be to let the experience influence losses also AFTER the combat has been resolved and not only by increasing combat value. In this way, an elite division that is forced to retreat by a 4:1 attack would suffer less losses than a green divison under the same odds.