Sinking USN CVs - is it worth it?

[mc3744]

Before you all jump on me for even asking, please read the post [;)]

Obviously, beside the satisfaction[:D], it is the game's goal to sink enemy ships.
My question is related to the risk of loosing japs ships in the action.

I'm talking '42. We all know that USN CVs, without Hellcats, aren't very much of a threat to the IJN.
The Hellcat arrives in July '43. Hence if you sink in the first half of '42 any USN CV you are not denying the Allies the use of any CVs Hellcat equipped, because almost by the time you have the F6F you get the CVs back.

Hence my question: would you give away a main IJN CV for 2-4 US CVs in '42. The IJN one is lost for good, the USN are coming back. Wouldn't it be a Pyrrhic victory?
Of course sinking with no losses is excellent, but if you have to exchange, even at a good rate, does it make sense?

[harrer]

but they come back in a year or two ... in that time, the IJN can destroy all your convoys and TF and the allied player can't do anything to stop the japanese player ... so the deal 1 IJN CV for 2-4 US CV is good for the japanese player ..

Harrer

[mc3744]

ORIGINAL: harrer

but they come back in a year or two ... in that time, the IJN can destroy all your convoys and TF and the allied player can't do anything to stop the japanese player ... so the deal 1 IJN CV for 2-4 US CV is good for the japanese player ..

Harrer

IMHO and from what I've seen in 8 PBEM, the IJN can roam freely and attack wherever it pleases her, whether or not the USN has the CVs. If they show up, they sink.
In ALL the games I played, in '42 I lost as Allies and won as IJN, always.

The only question is if you want to sink them so badly that you are prepared to sustain losses on your side.
Satisfacion wise I would - alway -, but I'm starting to think that rationally it's not such a good idea.

[Gen.Hoepner]

Hi,
I do agree with the consideration that without the allied CVs around Japan can roam free for the whole 42 without fearing a suddend american attack at its defensive perimeter, but every engagement, even if Jap doesnt' lose any ship, costs a lot in terms of pilots and we all know how badly Japan will need those pilots in 43.

[RUPD3658]

Points, lost pilots, and tactical freedom make it a must for the Japs to sink the American CVs. The US will get a ton of them anyway come '44 so 5-6 more really won't make a difference.

[kaiser73]

Killing 2-4 CV in '42 means Japan has total free hand on Pacific...surely worth the loss of 1 CV.

Btw, in '44 US will do whatever they want regardless if Japan has 1 CV more or not.

[AmiralLaurent]

Never went so far in WITP PBEM but the critical time for any game will probably be June 1942-June 1943. My goal with IJN is to fight on forward positions (either mine or Allied ones) during this period. After June 1943 my only hope is to slow the Allied advance.

Once Allied have a size 5 airfield somewhere you can forget using bases 10 hexes around it. It is there that CVs are very useful in defensive operations. B-17 will not shut them down as they can with bases. The best places to use them is against an Allied invasion convoy outside land-based LRCAP.

So sinking US CVs in 1942 gives you a huge advantage to defeat Allied offensives moves before June 1943.... if you still have half of your CVs usable after the battles: undamaged and still with good pilots aboard.

[mc3744]

I'm not entirely conviced.
Yes, no USN CVs means freedom.
But USN CVs mean freedom 'after sinking', I mean: if they show up you go there with the Death Star and sink them. So basically you are free even without sinking them. It's only a point issue, if you look at those.
They can be sunk even by 'only' Nell and Betties (and I know it [:(]) if they come too close.

In one game (May '42) the USN tried to stop the early invasion of Guadalcanal with the two CV already on site.
I went in with the Shokaku KB and sank them.
The Allies tried a daring move, assuming my CV air groups where depleted they came full speed with the two CVs remaining, intecepted my KB and sank 1 CV and 1 CVL, plus 1 CV badly damaged. The Allies had 1 additional CV damaged.
Point wise he lost approx 700 point and 180 a/c capacity, while I lost about half, but I still think he is the winner.

[Ron Saueracker]

MC3744. I hope you don't coach little league soccer![:D][X(] Some parents might not like your math.[;)]

[mc3744]

I don't and I never will.

The only kids I like are mine [:'(]

[Ron Saueracker]

Thing that gets me is why a question like "Are USN CVs worth sinking?" is asked and why? Historically, they were the prime targets. If the game mechanics change this, something is wrong in my book.

Personally, I think it's worth killing USN CVs in WITP...especially with spawning because if the early CV are lost, new spawned ones are a couple years away, and the original historical CVs which were renamed after the four which were historically lost are not even in the OOB! Four early arrival Essexes are not available in mid 43 so that leaves a massive gap of over a year where USN has a CV shortage. Japan would be in a great situation if she can sink 4-6 of the prewar built CVs. GG made it worse for the Allied player, not better as many believe.

[adsoul]

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker
GG made it worse for the Allied player, not better as many believe.

Silly question... what's GG?

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: adso

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker
GG made it worse for the Allied player, not better as many believe.

Silly question... what's GG?

Gary Grigsby, one of the Greek Gods of PC wargaming!!![&o]

[adsoul]

Gary Grigsby, one of the Greek Gods of PC wargaming!!![&o]

Opps, this one was realy silly [:D]

[Mr.Frag]

GG made it worse for the Allied player, not better as many believe.

Whaaa! Whaaa! Call the "Whaaa" police!

Ron ... one of these days it's going to sink in that GG really doesn't care one way or the other. Just because you lost some CV's doesn't mean GG coded a "Ron" section to seek out and destroy your CV's personally. [8|]

[moses]

Original: mc3744.

I mean: if they show up you go there with the Death Star and sink them.

This makes it seem so easy!! As allies I'm going to stay away from any "death stars". Its not that difficult.

I plan where I want my CV's to operate and then place them 4 or 5 days away in a nice safe place with lots of recon/subs around so if KB shows up I can run away. When KB shows up somewhere else in the Pacific then I launch my operation. If KB never shows up and I never can determine where they are I keep my CV's hidden and safe.

There is no reason to seek a decisive combat as allies. My goal for my CV's is just to punish Japan if he tries any lightly supported invasions. So for example if Japan tries to take Numea. He can do it but he better commit his carriers there long term. Otherwise my CV's will crush him.

I want to force Japan to fully support every attack as this reduces the speed of his offensive. If he starts cheating, the CV' can be used to spank him. Without the U.S. CV's Japan can attack with much greater impunity.

[BlackVoid]

While in play, the USN CVs are a threat. Send KB anywhere for a raid and US CVs can appear someplace else...
By the time you react, they are gone....

What moses said also holds true. US CVs hidden forces Japan to support each operation properly. If Japan sinks the CVs, he can support any operation with half the KB, the other half can do something else, eg: raid your convoys.

[rtrapasso]

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

GG made it worse for the Allied player, not better as many believe.

Whaaa! Whaaa! Call the "Whaaa" police!

Ron ... one of these days it's going to sink in that GG really doesn't care one way or the other. Just because you lost some CV's doesn't mean GG coded a "Ron" section to seek out and destroy your CV's personally. [8|]

This reminds me of Sagan vs. programmers. story. I think it was Apple programmers that wanted to name some subroutine Sagan. Carl Sagan heard of this and threw a fit. Apple told its programmers NO. So the programmers named the subroutine BHA - which "allegedly" stood for ButtHoleAstronomer.

Sagan heard of this and sued! Don't think he got to far with this, though.

So - maybe that's why we can't look at the code - special subroutines named after forum members Grigsby is out to payback![:'(][:D][;)]
GOSUB SinkSauerackerCarriers.
IF player=Saueracker AND if target = playerCV THEN All torpedoes hit.
RETURN

[Nikademus]

This could explain how i've gotten four Japanese battleships torpedoed early in the war. GG programed a Nik routine!!!

GOSUB General Nik.
IF player=Nik AND if target = 'anything valuable' THEN All torpedoes hit.
RETURN

[mc3744]

Ok, let me try one last time.

The USN has 5 main CV.
Would you exchange 1 Jap CV for 3 USN CVs?
You lost one forever but the threat against convoys is not over. He still has 2 CVs + 1 CVE.
I agree that if you annhilate all or 4 out of 5 it's worth it, but if you only obtain a partial while loosing something yourself ... I'm not so sure.

As IJN I feel 'free' with or without USN CVs around.

As to the fact that you need a full KB for massive invasion: true. But how many serious invasions at a time do you want to run?
You go in, take you time to get Noumea, Luganville and Efate (say one month), recover and in one more month you can go for PM and GiliGili.

1942 has 12 months, you don't need to run. Once South and Central Pacific are secured, where are the Allies going, until mid '43? What convoys can they threaten with CVs? They'd have to come withing G3/4M range. I'd be happy to welcome them.

One PBEM as Allies. The Japs come in for PM, I tried to interfere, 5 CV+1 CVE. Result: 600 planes lost in two days, not one hit. After two months PM, GiliGili, Luganvilee, Efate, Noumea, Fiji ... gone.

This time I'm playing as Japs, I'm mopping up Noumea. The Allies come in: I had 3 CVs damaged, he is left with only 1. All the rest are subs.

Another game as Allies, ambushed near Nanoumea Atoll by Jap KB, two USN CVs down.

One more, Allies: PM invasion. Battle outside Townsville, Kaga down, 3 USN CVs and CVE down.

It's always the same, if you need to engage the CVs they just go down or -at best - fail to score one single hit.

The only convoys you really need to raid are those carrying resources and oil, but can you get inside the G3/4M coverage? I don't think so, even if he had no CVs.