Soviets too strong ?

[Harry]

Hi all!

Frist thank you Matrix for this nice update. Thanks!

Second.

When I get a new version of WIR everytime I do a comp. vs. comp. games check.
I have run three tests:
Result : Soviet beats Germany always in the first half of 44.
I don't know if this is the result of the missing AI (:-)) maybe a human german player will perform better....but if we also take into account a human soviet player, it may be equal.

When I remember the original WIR, then the result of AI vs AI was very good. Most of the time germany captures Leningrad...and russia wins around spring/summer 45.

So I will try as a human against germany and will see when I am in Berlin.

Is it possible that the interception range of fighters have been increased?
IIRC in the old WIR it was 7 Hexes. Now fighter still intercept 8 hexes from HQs away?

But still a good update, thanks again.

Harry

[RickyB]

Originally posted by Harry:
Hi all!

Frist thank you Matrix for this nice update. Thanks!

Second.

When I get a new version of WIR everytime I do a comp. vs. comp. games check.
I have run three tests:
Result : Soviet beats Germany always in the first half of 44.
I don't know if this is the result of the missing AI (:-)) maybe a human german player will perform better....but if we also take into account a human soviet player, it may be equal.

When I remember the original WIR, then the result of AI vs AI was very good. Most of the time germany captures Leningrad...and russia wins around spring/summer 45.

So I will try as a human against germany and will see when I am in Berlin.

Is it possible that the interception range of fighters have been increased?
IIRC in the old WIR it was 7 Hexes. Now fighter still intercept 8 hexes from HQs away?

But still a good update, thanks again.

Harry

Harry,

We are seeing the same results in the AI only tests. Unfortunately, playing another human literally takes at least a couple of months to really tell, so an update will come tweaking things if need be this summer. Right now, two of us are in our second head to head game. The first showed the Soviets way too strong and a number of changes were made. In this one, it is the end of October, Leningrad has fallen, and most of the south up to Rostov is ready to finish falling. Moscow is safe though. Overall, it seems very historical at this point, except the Soviets may still be stronger than historically. We both feel the problem around Moscow is related to the rail conversion change (lower) and the map changes, making the supply level lag around Moscow and stopping the offensive. Right now it is impossible to reach Moscow in supply until late September, with mud starting the next turn or two, most likely. More play will tell, though.


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Rick Bancroft
Semper Fi

[Ancient One]

I'm probably of the minority opinion here, but I think comp. vs comp. games are an excellent way to test play balance. Russia is definitely way too powerful.

It may be a good idea to reduce the Russian replacement multiplier to 6 in 1941 instead of 8.

The blizzards are much too harsh for the Axis, in reality the Soviet losses were actually higher. In fact, Soviet losses were much higher throughout the entire war, not just in the summer of 1941. It is important for the game to model this.

[moni kerr]

I just did a comp v comp game up to end of March 1942. The results were interesting. It was a total disaster for the Germans. They made it as far as Vyazma. They never took Uman nor Odessa. The Soviets recaptured Vyazma, Veliki Luki and Kiev encircling those cities. A good part of AGC is on the verge of being surrounded. At this point there are 25 guard infantry divisions and most tank divisions have experience in the 70's. There are also at least 10 with 80+ and one with 91 and another at 94.

The most surprising event was the blizzard. It started with 2 turns at the end of Nov followed by 2 of snow followed by 10 blizzard until end of Feb '42. Then 1 snow followed by 2 blizzard then 1 snow. I shudder at the thought of what a human Soviet player could have inflicted upon the Germans.

[Ed Cogburn]

Originally posted by moni kerr:
I just did a comp v comp game up to end of March 1942. The results were interesting. It was a total disaster for the Germans.

I don't think you can read much into a comp vs. comp game, especially for the Germans. It takes finesse to play the Germans, and the AI doesn't have that. It plays both with a frontal assault mentality and that is the last thing you should do while playing the Germans. There may be other factors involved here. For one, I'm wondering if Arnaud turned off the double replacements cheat for the AI when the AI is playing itself. An AI German without those double replacements may look like a total incompetent.

[sitkis]

Version 3.0 is a big step forward. It still seems unlikely (almost impossible) for the Germans to win in '41 against a competent Russian. An old college buddy is visiting me this week, and we have played through to 10/41 so far. As the Germans I have taken Leningrad and Stalino, but have only managed to get to within six hexes of Moscow. The rail converson rate doesn't allow the supply lines to expand fast enough.

The good news is that the lower Russion infantry replacement rate really forces Stalin to make some choices. My opponent has hinted that he has no squads in his replacement pool. This is due, no doubt, in large part to the Russian player using "old" tactics of throwing piles of infantry in my path, forcing me to surround and capture them. I think in future games he would be more selective about where he decides to slow me down.

The Russian air force is much more effective in '41 than ever before. I'm not sure if this is a good or bad thing. I'm guessing the German air force is going to take a beating come blizzard though.

All good fun. Finally a version worth spending the time on an extended pbem.

[RickyB]

Originally posted by sitkis:
Version 3.0 is a big step forward. It still seems unlikely (almost impossible) for the Germans to win in '41 against a competent Russian. An old college buddy is visiting me this week, and we have played through to 10/41 so far. As the Germans I have taken Leningrad and Stalino, but have only managed to get to within six hexes of Moscow. The rail converson rate doesn't allow the supply lines to expand fast enough.

The good news is that the lower Russion infantry replacement rate really forces Stalin to make some choices. My opponent has hinted that he has no squads in his replacement pool. This is due, no doubt, in large part to the Russian player using "old" tactics of throwing piles of infantry in my path, forcing me to surround and capture them. I think in future games he would be more selective about where he decides to slow me down.

The Russian air force is much more effective in '41 than ever before. I'm not sure if this is a good or bad thing. I'm guessing the German air force is going to take a beating come blizzard though.

All good fun. Finally a version worth spending the time on an extended pbem.

Your experience almost exactly matches mine and another tester's in the game we are currently playing. We are pushing for Arnaud to either bump up rail conversion early on for a couple of turns or keep blitz supply at a higher level for longer. Another change that may be needed is to reduce the Soviet gains in experience/readiness, which seems too high.

One thing that can really help the Luftwaffe compared to earlier versions is bombing airfields. Before only 25% of "destroyed" aircraft were actually destroyed, with the rest only damaged. Now it is somewhere over 50% so you can beat the Soviets down if they come out too soon.

Enjoy.


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Rick Bancroft
Semper Fi

[Yogi Yohan]

I have always been of the opinion that the most "realistic" match for the first year of the 1941 campaign is Soviet AI vs German human. The Germans were THAT much better.

If the game is realisticly balanced, a half-way competent Soviet human player SHOULD stop the Wehrmacht dead in its tracks. My point being, in 1941 the Soviets were NOT half-way competent, and they still survived.

Its not until late in the game that the AI really gets unrealisticly incompetent, since the Soviets learnt a lot from their mistakes and the AI doesn't. I remeber winning a game in old 1.0 WIR by spring 1944...

[Svar]

Rick,

The next time you and Don start a new head to head game try changing the start date to 6/15/41 to test your hypothesis that an additional two rail conversions will balance the historical start. The in game scenario editor no longer changes the pool numbers so this is a quick and easy change.

Svar

[RickyB]

Originally posted by Svar:
Rick,

The next time you and Don start a new head to head game try changing the start date to 6/15/41 to test your hypothesis that an additional two rail conversions will balance the historical start. The in game scenario editor no longer changes the pool numbers so this is a quick and easy change.

Svar

Great idea - never thought of that one, although have to consider the weather impact also now that I think about it. Good to see you still out there, and thanks for all the help on the game. Are you playing, or just keeping an eye on things?


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Rick Bancroft
Semper Fi

[Svar]

[/b][/QUOTE]
Great idea - never thought of that one, although have to consider the weather impact also now that I think about it. Good to see you still out there, and thanks for all the help on the game. Are you playing, or just keeping an eye on things?

[/B][/QUOTE]
I have edited the start date in the old version and the weather isn't effected. For some reason 6/41 is all clear weather, the weather changes in 10/41 just like normal. I have downloaded version 3.0 but not started playing yet. I'm leaving for a week of skiing in Lake Tahoe so will have to wait. I have been distracted for the last couple of months but have monitored both the forum and all the e-mail messages so have kept up to date. It looks like we have a winner here though.

[Don Shafer]

Maybe with the shortened rail conversion time during blitzkreig will allow the Germans to abuse the Soviets more during the summer/fall thus reducing the effects of the Winter Offensive

Originally posted by RickyB:

Originally posted by Svar:
Rick,

The next time you and Don start a new head to head game try changing the start date to 6/15/41 to test your hypothesis that an additional two rail conversions will balance the historical start. The in game scenario editor no longer changes the pool numbers so this is a quick and easy change.

Svar

Great idea - never thought of that one, although have to consider the weather impact also now that I think about it. Good to see you still out there, and thanks for all the help on the game. Are you playing, or just keeping an eye on things?

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Don Shafer Commander of Army Group Shafer