New Italian Front Strength calculation formulas

cverbrug · Post by **cverbrug** » Wed Mar 07, 2001 12:59 am

Hello,

Does anyone knows the correct strength calculation formula's used by the new game routine in v 3.0 of the WIR game for the Italian and
West HQ strength? Is readiness taken into account, and fortification level of the terrain they are placed in?

RickyB · Post by **RickyB** » Wed Mar 07, 2001 4:08 am

Originally posted by cverbrug:
Hello,

Does anyone knows the correct strength calculation formula's used by the new game routine in v 3.0 of the WIR game for the Italian and
West HQ strength? Is readiness taken into account, and fortification level of the terrain they are placed in?

Do you mean for the Axis strength. If so, it is the same as it always has been. It does factor in readiness and experience, just as if it was calculating the strength of any other units. Fortification value has no impact, or the terrain. Airpower is ignored. It uses 1 point per squad and gun, I believe and 4 points per tank.

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Rick Bancroft
Semper Fi

Ed Cogburn · Post by **Ed Cogburn** » Wed Mar 07, 2001 6:32 am

Originally posted by RickyB:
Do you mean for the Axis strength. If so, it is the same as it always has been. It does factor in readiness and experience, just as if it was calculating the strength of any other units. Fortification value has no impact, or the terrain. Airpower is ignored. It uses 1 point per squad and gun, I believe and 4 points per tank.

To add to what Rick said, the leader of the front does make a difference. If the leader fails a leadership check there is a penalty to the strength of that front for that turn. I think the penalty is 500 points, but I'm not sure. Rick knows the details.

RickyB · Post by **RickyB** » Wed Mar 07, 2001 9:18 am

Originally posted by Ed Cogburn:

To add to what Rick said, the leader of the front does make a difference. If the leader fails a leadership check there is a penalty to the strength of that front for that turn. I think the penalty is 500 points, but I'm not sure. Rick knows the details.

Ed is right, there is a random 1 to 500 point bonus for the Allies in Italy if the Axis leader fails his check, and 1 to 750 in the West. The leadership check fails if the leader rating is less than a 1-10 random number, with about a 30 percent chance of Hitler replacing the actual leader for this check, I think. Amazing how most or all games actually work.

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Rick Bancroft
Semper Fi

Optha · Post by **Optha** » Wed Mar 07, 2001 11:16 am

When you ceck out the strengh in january, dont forget that the allies will get +500 in fair weather turns.
RickyB, are you sure that airpower is ignored?

Svar · Post by **Svar** » Wed Mar 07, 2001 12:33 pm

Originally posted by RickyB:

Ed is right, there is a random 1 to 500 point bonus for the Allies in Italy if the Axis leader fails his check, and 1 to 750 in the West. The leadership check fails if the leader rating is less than a 1-10 random number, with about a 30 percent chance of Hitler replacing the actual leader for this check, I think. Amazing how most or all games actually work.

[/B]

The last time I checked the actual value in the Italian Front (V 2.1) the formulas in the manual on page 74 were still in effect. 3 per tank + 1 per squad and recon vehicle + 1/5 per artillery and flak assigned to the Italian Front. These values are modified by the experience and readiness for each unit. Arnaud says that aircraft are not counted even though the formula on page 74 includes them.

Svar

RickyB · Post by **RickyB** » Wed Mar 07, 2001 8:10 pm

Originally posted by Svar:
The last time I checked the actual value in the Italian Front (V 2.1) the formulas in the manual on page 74 were still in effect. 3 per tank + 1 per squad and recon vehicle + 1/5 per artillery and flak assigned to the Italian Front. These values are modified by the experience and readiness for each unit. Arnaud says that aircraft are not counted even though the formula on page 74 includes them.

Svar

What Svar says sounds right on. I was going by memory when I posted before, but this sounds like what I remember getting used now. There is no airpower included, but that will probably change in a future update, when Arnaud comes up with something, or we do as a group.

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Rick Bancroft
Semper Fi

Martinov · Post by **Martinov** » Wed Mar 07, 2001 9:50 pm

Yes, please, make aircraft worth something on the west and med fronts. Much more realistic.

Implementation could be straightforward, just weight them at maybe 4 (?) pts per plane, and time permitting, give each front a small chance of suffering air attrition each turn (perhaps 5% or 10% when it does)

By the way, what did the axis aircraft that start in Italy do historically? Are they meant to represent med garrisons or were they historically sent to russia. In fact what about the Italian HQ/forces in trieste, does that represent occupation forces for the balkans or again, units earmarked for the eastern front?

Svar · Post by **Svar** » Wed Mar 07, 2001 11:45 pm

Originally posted by Martinov:
Yes, please, make aircraft worth something on the west and med fronts. Much more realistic.

Implementation could be straightforward, just weight them at maybe 4 (?) pts per plane, and time permitting, give each front a small chance of suffering air attrition each turn (perhaps 5% or 10% when it does)

By the way, what did the axis aircraft that start in Italy do historically? Are they meant to represent med garrisons or were they historically sent to russia. In fact what about the Italian HQ/forces in trieste, does that represent occupation forces for the balkans or again, units earmarked for the eastern front?

The old formula for aircraft on the West and Italian fronts was 1 pt per undamaged plane.

Currently both air and ground forces in both fronts suffer attrition each turn but I don't know at what rate. They also gain experience and therin lies an advantage for the German player. I use both fronts as refit and training bases for both new units and badly mauled veteran units from Russia.

You are free to use all the German units represented in the game in any manner you choose just be careful not to deplete the West and Italian fronts below the point that will trigger an event. If you leave the fronts alone the events should occur at about the historical time.

Not all German ground units used in the war are represented in the game, many West front units are left out including the Norway garrison and I think all the Balkins garrison units are missing. I think all the german air units are in the game but more knowledgeable people than me could verify that.

jfbfr · Post by **jfbfr** » Thu Mar 08, 2001 12:50 am

I may be cursed, but on most games i tried,
the italian front strength fell very rapidly (down at 1000 pts on 14/07/41 even after adding 23 panzer div and setting replacement to 80 %) and it (the front, sorry for my poor english) shattered systematically when under 1000. So leaving this front alone sure ain't an option for me. Maybe i do something wrong : this behaviour looks very different from what you describe. Any advice ?

jfbfr · Post by **jfbfr** » Thu Mar 08, 2001 12:50 am

I may be cursed, but on most games i tried,
the italian front strength fell very rapidly (down at 1000 pts on 14/07/41 even after adding 23 panzer div and setting replacement to 80 %) and it (the front, sorry for my poor english) shattered systematically when under 1000. So leaving this front alone sure ain't an option for me. Maybe i do something wrong : this behaviour looks very different from what you describe. Any advice ?

RickyB · Post by **RickyB** » Thu Mar 08, 2001 1:04 am

Originally posted by jfbfr:
I may be cursed, but on most games i tried,
the italian front strength fell very rapidly (down at 1000 pts on 14/07/41 even after adding 23 panzer div and setting replacement to 80 %) and it (the front, sorry for my poor english) shattered systematically when under 1000. So leaving this front alone sure ain't an option for me. Maybe i do something wrong : this behaviour looks very different from what you describe. Any advice ?

The Axis strength should start out at 1740 or so and climb from there. If you are seeing something as low as you are getting without moving units out, there is something going on weird. If it is okay, send me a save game showing the low strength so I can see what may be dropping it. My e-mail is in my profile. Thanks.

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Rick Bancroft
Semper Fi

Mist · Post by **Mist** » Thu Mar 08, 2001 1:27 am

I had have 3000+(3 pz divisions and a lot of infantry) axis strength for Italian front in may 1942 against 2000 alied strength. But axis surrendered next turn. How could it happen?

RickyB · Post by **RickyB** » Thu Mar 08, 2001 3:30 am

Originally posted by Mist:
I had have 3000+(3 pz divisions and a lot of infantry) axis strength for Italian front in may 1942 against 2000 alied strength. But axis surrendered next turn. How could it happen?

Hi Mist,
If you have a save game from before the surrender, please send it to me (zipped if possible) and I will look at it, along with the set that JFBFR sent me today to look at. You shouldn't have any problems, but I need to see the file for any oddities. Thanks.

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Rick Bancroft
Semper Fi

NEON DEON · Post by **NEON DEON** » Thu Mar 08, 2001 3:39 am

I COULD BE ALL WET BUT I BELIEVE AIRPOWER DOES COUNT.

41 scenario starts with 1797 strength as is.

I boosted that strenght to 2028 by adding
ss police division, two italian divisions from the italian 8th army and a hungarian light infintry divsion from hungarian hq.

Then i tested this strength with the airforce
and with the airforce removed. Did it 50 times for each.

The italian front surrendered with the airforce 6% of the time 3 out of 50

The italian front surrendered with the airforce removed 38% of the time 19 out of 50

Also, what might be throwing people off is that when u first remove the airforce the number remains the same giving it the appearance that air units dont matter. but,
if you remove the airforce then save the game
then go back and reload it the strength is a lot lower!

also after the surrender i did edit scenario
with no ground troops in italy but putting in
over 2000 aircraft the strenght showe up at 1005

Is this a bug? or should airforces count??

Mist · Post by **Mist** » Thu Mar 08, 2001 3:52 am

Originally posted by RickyB:
Hi Mist,
If you have a save game from before the surrender, please send it to me (zipped if possible) and I will look at it, along with the set that JFBFR sent me today to look at. You shouldn't have any problems, but I need to see the file for any oddities. Thanks.

thanx for reply, Rick! According to your previous post, all minor ally pz divisions do not count

That was my problem.

[This message has been edited by Mist (edited March 07, 2001).]

RickyB · Post by **RickyB** » Thu Mar 08, 2001 5:04 am

There is a known problem with saving the game, where the listed CV is approximately halved when it is reopened for the strength report. From what I have always seen, the real strength is used for the check, but maybe I have just never had a problem with an event when I have done this. I am about 90% sure that airpower does not have an effect, and have stripped the Italian front in testing without any events happening.

I will take a close look at the halving in the strength upon reopening and see if that may be causing the events.

Thanks for all the information, guys.

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Rick Bancroft
Semper Fi

Mist · Post by **Mist** » Thu Mar 08, 2001 5:36 am

I want to add to my last post that I transferred all air units from the Italian front to the east just before it shattered.

NEON DEON · Post by **NEON DEON** » Thu Mar 08, 2001 6:49 am

I forgot.

If you transfer all air units out the strength looks the same. but, if you transfer a ground unit in then back out it
still goes lower without having to save and reenter.

Is there a strength number in 41 that would make the italian front bust everytime?? Like
0 would that make it bust everytime??

RickyB · Post by **RickyB** » Thu Mar 08, 2001 8:32 am

Now I am really confused by things. I took Jean's save games, and did all sorts of things with them and could not get a single event in 25 tries. I moved air units out, divisions in and out and all about, etc. I tried it with a slightly earlier test version that writes out a text file of what happens in the game and in that one the Italian front strength is the full strength being used, not the half that originally shows up with a saved game file.

Is everyone using the latest Matrix release? It should be 3.0 and I would bet everyone is, but just want to check.

I will pass on the problem you all are having to Arnaud to check further, but I just do not see any problems when I try it, period.

NEON - an empty Italian front will have an event, unless one already occured in the very recent past.

Sorry, I am clueless in Colorado.

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Rick Bancroft
Semper Fi