cap ship formations...

[Steel_WOF]

is this possible?

can a group of cap ships be put into a formation? will the ai have them protect each other, work with each other to achieve a goal? possible to also add commands to a formation that include manuevers, like combat maneuvers? pincer, target a particular craft, etc.?

another question: if there is more than one objective put into a mission, will the ai automatically go after those objectives or do packages have to be set on one objective only for an entire game? if a package is set to one objective (we are talking something like destroy ship a) will it automatically go for a second objective (somethng like destroy ship b) if the first is destroyed?

thx!

[TheDeadlyShoe]

The packages just pretty much just mean auto-configuration of navpoints. You can add or change all the navpoints on the fly, so if you wanted an assault package to assault and destroy one ship then assault another, you could do that by adding another navpoint and changing the objective.

[Count Sessine]

I think cap ship formations is a gameplay element that would really add to the overall 'fleet command' aspect of the game, + it would make C&C much easier.

[Kuokkanen]

ORIGINAL: Count Sessine

it would make C&C much easier.

How anything in this game would make anything easier in the other game?

[John DiCamillo]

You cannot normally put starships into formations. Formations are defined for multiple ships in an element, like four fighters in a strike package. Starships are generally solo elements, so they have nothing to form up with. To be honest, I don't think formations of starships would work very well in Starshatter due to a combination of physics and AI design issues.

On the other hand, the AI will have ships work together to achieve goals automatically, by combining specific mission objectives and general fighting doctrine. For example, frigates will automatically assume a fleet air defense role, and will fire on threats that target any ships on their team. The doctrines aren't user-editable, though.

Yes, the AI should be able to move through a series of objectives that are assigned to a mission element in the way you suggest. If you happen run into a situation where this does not seem to be working, send me a copy of the mission and I will investigate.

[Steel_WOF]

John,
Thx! Will do some testing and see...

Matti,
He is referring to Command & Control, not Command and Conquer.

[Steel_WOF]

milo - i would argue that there is quite some reason to have formations and manuevers for cap ships... it is and has been used in naval tactics for a very long time, and there is of course a reason for that.

imagine telling your 4 frigates to form a defensive box around your carrier or battleship, providing quite some PD capabilites versus fighters and torpedos and missiles??? or your cruiser squadron to form a line or wall, keeping the forward firing main guns towards and able to fire on a single enemy ship??? or your destroyer squadron to form a line for a simultaneous (line abreast) or in series (trail) torpedo attack? imagine crossing the tee with all guns bearing on the approaching enemy...

i urge you to consider it!

i have not been able to get far in my testing, i might have to buy the full game (no manual for the demo) which i did not want to do until i was satisfied with the capabilites of the engine and ai.

[Count Sessine]

ORIGINAL: Matti Kuokkanen

ORIGINAL: Count Sessine

it would make C&C much easier.

How anything in this game would make anything easier in the other game?

Heh, very funny, not Command and Conquer, but Command & Control [:)]

[Count Sessine]

For example, yesterday a capital ship formation like sphere would have been useful.

My Orion carrier was slugging it out with an enemy carrier. I tried to position my cap ships around the Orion to provide all round anti-fighter defense, but it was in vain. I was unable to position them precisely enough, and the excellent enemy fighter AI always found the 'hole' in my screen and slipped his bombers in through there. The Orion was eventually destroyed despite it being guarded by 10+ cap ships.

There is also the question of 'time on target'. Without a fixed cap ship formation, it's very near impossible to commit a large fleet to enter range of an enemy fleet at the same time. Often the piecemeal deployment of a fleet which enters battle in a staggered/untidy formation has unfortunate results.

[John DiCamillo]

That's not the point I was making. I didn't say formations were a bad idea, I said they wouldn't work.

This isn't an RTS. The ships are way more complicated, the AI commanders have to deal with three different physics models, and they have very complicated rules of engagement, combining inputs from doctrine, flight plan, mission objectives, support requests, scripted mission events, and direct tactical orders issued in the field. It is exceptionally difficult to create an AI that can balance all of those conflicting directives in a way that makes sense, especially when different players have different expectations of what makes sense.

[Count Sessine]

Ok, you're right, I kinda misinterpreted your post. Sorry about that [:)]

[Steel_WOF]

milo - no offense meant, no criticism... i would definitely NOT compare this to an RTS - those games are far less realistic, so much so that i have no interest in playing them personally.

it would just add to the realism so much if this could be done.

piecemeal attacks on enemy formations are just not realistic - no squadron commander would send his/her ships into range of the enemy one at a time. they would send in a formation to bring max firepower to bear simultaneously - or in a planned and controller manner.

might there be a different way to approach this (other than formations)? fighters can have formations... maybe some outside the box thinking?

regardless, thanks for hearing this out and putting some brain power behind it.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

Well, there's really no need for the AI to be able to do it, and a human squadron commander can do it adequately already.

I would prefer of frigates had a tendency to stick close to their battlegroup. Them running all over the map is kinda irritating for both Terellian and Marakan frigates.

Sessine: I think that the problem with defending your orion is mainly due to a velocity bug involving assault packages. Assault package interception should be easier come 4.5.

[Steel_WOF]

Shoe,
I am definitely not seeing the AI cooperating on a sufficient level in the demo. They come into the attack piecemeal. While I can designate one target for all of them, they do not hold formations and coordinate their attack as a group. Try to have frigates form a protective ring around a carrier...and follow it and maintain a proper defensive ring. Most often they follow, but at too far a distance and leaving holes in the defensive ring (i.e. with the escort or defend command) - I find they follow BEHIND the ship they are escorting, which really does almost no good.

I would say up to destroyers could use some form of this functionality, and even cruisers that are/can be created as AA platforms.

Now being not thoroughly familiar with the game and having only the demo to play with (no manual, wish it was included) there may be things I am missing, but I see enough interest to think it might be worth consideration.

How is this better in 4.5? Details? Thx!

[Count Sessine]

Hey, that sounds awfully interesting !!

[TheDeadlyShoe]

Ships are not meant to provide adequate defense against assault packages. The primary benefit of ship defense is to inflict high casualties, but the assault is supposed to get through. Fighters are meant to be the means through which assaults are stopped in their tracks, but this is currently bugged because fighters on assault packages can attain ridiculous speeds which render interception impossible.

If you want a ship to proceed to a navpoint without changing path to engage enemies, this can be done by using the "Recon" action.

[Steel_WOF]

but the assault is supposed to get through.

says who???? i bet if you asked a defender they would have a different opinion. or are you saying milo designed in this artificial 100% attack success?

Ships are not meant to provide adequate defense against assault packages.

huh? Frigates ARE meant to provide AA defense, be it fighters or torps or missiles. else what point to frigates? granted, i may not know milo's intentions for his universe but it seems modeled after naval warfare and frigates ARE AA defense (along with destroyers as well) and they DO form protective rings around carriers and DO maintain that formation.

Fighters are meant to be the means through which assaults are stopped in their tracks

if a frigate with complex fire control system can not engage incoming fighters/missiles/torps due to their speed, no fighter is going to be capable of it. we even have this capability now in modern naval ships (especially frigates that provide fleet air defense) - they have missile and point defense systems capable of intercepting small very high speed objects - anti ship missiles. i certanly hope it could continue to be done in the future.

also, i am not talking about ships changing course to engage the enemy while enroute to a nav point. when a ship is issued a escort command, it does not use nav points, it escorts another ship, which may or may not go to a nav point. if an escorting ship is peeling off from its escortee while enroute to a nav point with said escortee, there is a problem with the ai not following orders.

i am talking about ships given escort orders, that escort FROM BEHIND the escorted ship. what use is that? i have also seen them escort off on the right side in the front, with an enemy attacking from the left which is out of range of the excorting ship due to its position. what use is that?

all i am asking for from the developer is consideration for some formations for ships and perhaps better ai coordination for attacking targets (which formations might be able to provide). maybe thinking outside of the box can provide such a feature to enhance realism for the game.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

There would be no reason to use fighters were a group of capital ships superior to it in all things. Frigates can kill fighters at a more than adequate rate currently, but they cannot stop an assault in its tracks. Realize that I am speaking off shooting down fighters before they launch ASMs. The only way to reliably kill ASM-laden fighters before they launch is to intercept them at a good distance from their target.

When moving a squadron of ships, its usually better to just issue navpoints than to use the escort function. You could also use the Escort action for the navpoints- the ships will prioritize on any target attacking who they're defending, although they won't react until damage is actually done, in my experience.

[Steel_WOF]

"although they won't react until damage is actually done, in my experience" - exactly, on top of usually being out of position. that is something i would like to see tweaked... so maybe just some additional code for escorting and defending commands to help actually create a proper umbrella around the protected ship. that would be a great start, and maybe other things could be figured out later...

[Kuokkanen]

ORIGINAL: Steel_WOF

i am talking about ships given escort orders, that escort FROM BEHIND the escorted ship. what use is that? i have also seen them escort off on the right side in the front, with an enemy attacking from the left which is out of range of the excorting ship due to its position. what use is that?

I have noticed this myself in earlier beta versions (3.8). Destroyer group Gerrond (if I remember name right) went all over space by hundreds of kilometers with that escort command. I guess it might work better for fighters.