Novogorod question

Kuniworth · Post by **Kuniworth** » Sun May 06, 2001 12:41 am

Isnt the new map with Novogorod cut from rail-connection wrong? Historically this was an important communication link between Moscow and Leningrad. I don´t agree with this at all, maybe Yogi Yohan can fix this in his map?

RickyB · Post by **RickyB** » Sun May 06, 2001 9:58 am

Originally posted by Kuniworth:
Isnt the new map with Novogorod cut from rail-connection wrong? Historically this was an important communication link between Moscow and Leningrad. I don´t agree with this at all, maybe Yogi Yohan can fix this in his map?

I have a couple of sources that show Novgorod on the shore of Lake Ilmen, while the major north-south rail line to Leningrad runs about 30-40 kilometers to the west of the lake. Now as Mist and I and others have discussed already for other areas, there could be other rail lines in the area passing through Novgorod that less detailed sources don't show, such as the ones I have. Mist says he has very detailed maps of the Soviet Union from that era, and he can probably determine whether any significant rail lines passed through the town or not.

RickyB · Post by **RickyB** » Sun May 06, 2001 10:07 am

Originally posted by Kuniworth:
Isnt the new map with Novogorod cut from rail-connection wrong? Historically this was an important communication link between Moscow and Leningrad. I don´t agree with this at all, maybe Yogi Yohan can fix this in his map?

I have a couple of sources that show Novgorod on the shores of Lake Ilmen, while the main north-south railroad to Leningrad ran something like 20-30 kilometers to the west. We have had some discussion in this forum about the issue of the main raillines and secondary, and what shows up in different sources. It very well could be that Novgorod was on a railline and less detailed sources like mine ignored the line because it wasn't used much militarily. Anyway, Mist has some very detailed Soviet maps from the WW2 timeframe and may be able to shed light on whether there may have been important lines in the area or not.

RickyB · Post by **RickyB** » Sun May 06, 2001 6:27 pm

Originally posted by Kuniworth:
Isnt the new map with Novogorod cut from rail-connection wrong? Historically this was an important communication link between Moscow and Leningrad. I don´t agree with this at all, maybe Yogi Yohan can fix this in his map?

I have a couple of sources that show Novgorod on the shores of Lake Ilmen and the main north-south railway running about 20-30 kilometers to the west. However, we had some discussions recently about the game and most sources showing only the militarily important raillines, as showing all would cover lots of the map. It could be that my sources aren't detailed enough to show whatever rail lines ran into Novgorod, as there probably were some. Mist says he has some very detailed maps of the Soviet Union from this time period, and maybe he can shed some light on this area's railroads.

I do believe, though, that Novgorod's importance was as a screen to the north-south railroad, rather than being a part of it, the same as Velikie Luki.

Mist · Post by **Mist** » Sun May 06, 2001 8:55 pm

No, it is not important. Here is a map of the Leningrad region.

RickyB · Post by **RickyB** » Sun May 06, 2001 9:44 pm

Originally posted by Mist:
No, it is not important.

Thank you, Mist. I thought you might have something on the area.

Sorry about all the posts, I tried different ways to post and none were appearing due to errors, so I thought it was losing them all.

Mist · Post by **Mist** » Sun May 06, 2001 10:31 pm

Originally posted by RickyB:
Thank you, Mist. I thought you might have something on the area.

No problems, Ricky! Though this is a small piece of postwar USSR map, I believe that Novgorod never was important part of Leningrad-Moscow railroad. I just have not a scanner to create digital copy of my WWII map.
BTW: Amazing but fact. This post war map does not show Pskov-Demyansk railroad! I had made some map searchings and found this
modern USSR railroad map. It clearly shows that there IS this railroad, but it definitely has not high transition capacity. Railroads are real question in WiR. I've made several railroad corrections on my WiR map according to my map sources. Though they had touched only USSR railroads.

[ May 06, 2001: Message edited by: Mist ]

Ed Cogburn · Post by **Ed Cogburn** » Mon May 07, 2001 6:41 am

Originally posted by Mist:
Railroads are real question in WiR. I've made several railroad corrections on my WiR map according to my map sources. Though they had touched only USSR railroads.

Are you putting up your latest map onto the net somewhere so we can get it? I'd like to see the latest version. I think I asked you this once before, so if you give me a URL to your latest work, I promise to keep the URL, and not bother you again.

Mist · Post by **Mist** » Mon May 07, 2001 7:11 am

Originally posted by Ed Cogburn:

Are you putting up your latest map onto the net somewhere so we can get it? I'd like to see the latest version. I think I asked you this once before, so if you give me a URL to your latest work, I promise to keep the URL, and not bother you again.

Certainly, you can get it, Ed!
My version includes Yogi's changes and I had put on the map only existing railroads. But the problem was that I had to choose what to put and what not, because railroad net was too dense in some places. Note that I've also corrected rivers in Moscow-Gorki area.

[ May 06, 2001: Message edited by: Mist ]

Ed Cogburn · Post by **Ed Cogburn** » Mon May 07, 2001 3:36 pm

Originally posted by Mist:
My version includes Yogi's changes and I had put on the map only existing railroads. But the problem was that I had to choose what to put and what not, because railroad net was too dense in some places. Note that I've also corrected rivers in Moscow-Gorki area.

Has anyone else been able to download this? I'm getting a bad copy, with most of the map in a shambles. I've tried 3 times. Your older one from 28-3-01 was fine, Mist, I don't know what the problem is here.

RickyB · Post by **RickyB** » Mon May 07, 2001 6:29 pm

Originally posted by Ed Cogburn:

Has anyone else been able to download this? I'm getting a bad copy, with most of the map in a shambles. I've tried 3 times. Your older one from 28-3-01 was fine, Mist, I don't know what the problem is here.

I downloaded it last night but never looked at it. I just tried now and sure enough, the map is pretty scrambled. For me the top quarter at most looks okay, and then it seems shifted in parts, or just totally mixed up.

Mist · Post by **Mist** » Mon May 07, 2001 8:03 pm

I've just uploaded it again. Don't know what's happened.

RickyB · Post by **RickyB** » Mon May 07, 2001 9:00 pm

Originally posted by Mist:
I've just uploaded it again. Don't know what's happened.

Hi Mist,

The new upload is the same way. It still is corrupted. It almost acts like everything is shifted around, like the Crimea seems to almost show properly but way over to the west. In looking further, the map gets off by one extra hex around 44,13 or 45,13. It is fine up to there working left to right and top to bottom. It then gets off by a second extra hex a few rows farther down, and then more and more and I can't tell what is going on at that point.

Mist · Post by **Mist** » Mon May 07, 2001 10:05 pm

Ricky! I have no problems neither with download nor with downloaded map.
I've just uploaded compressed map there. Please try again. If you will have problems with unpacking it then the server upload routine is buggy in very strange way. If you will unpack it successfully and map problem still exists, then my problem is with my PC(1half???). I am also sending you the same archive by email.
compressed map

[ May 07, 2001: Message edited by: Mist ]

RickyB · Post by **RickyB** » Mon May 07, 2001 10:29 pm

Originally posted by Mist:
Ricky! I have no problems neither with download nor with downloaded map.
I've just uploaded compressed map there. Please try again. If you will have problems with unpacking it then the server upload routine is buggy in very strange way. If you will unpack it successfully and map problem still exists, then my problem is with my PC(1half???). I am also sending you the same archive by email.
compressed map

[ May 07, 2001: Message edited by: Mist ]

Thanks for all the work getting this up there, Mist. The .arj file worked fine. Based on that, I played with it some more as a straight download. The problem is in Netscape. If I use IE 5.0, the file is fine, but if I try Netscape to download the straight file, the file is too large by a small amount, which probably accounts for the extra hexes I was seeing.

Sorry to make you jump through all these hoops when your file was okay to begin with. The map looks good after a brief glance by the way. Thanks for everything.

Ed Cogburn · Post by **Ed Cogburn** » Tue May 08, 2001 11:10 am

Originally posted by Mist:
compressed map

Yep, the compressed one is fine, I have Netscape too.

Nice map Mist. You obviously did some work with the rivers, that confluence of rivers in the center of the map is interesting. The one thing that jumped out at me is the rail lines chopping up that center swampland. Up till now, there was very little combat in that swampy region due to terrain and lack of supply, but not anymore.

Mist · Post by **Mist** » Tue May 08, 2001 1:29 pm

Originally posted by Ed Cogburn:

Nice map Mist. You obviously did some work with the rivers, that confluence of rivers in the center of the map is interesting. The one thing that jumped out at me is the rail lines chopping up that center swampland. Up till now, there was very little combat in that swampy region due to terrain and lack of supply, but not anymore.

Thanx Ed. Both'Swampland' railroads and 'swampland' true size are questionable. I appreciate any comments on my corrections and will gladly accept any map references. I've found both Zhitomir-Mogilev and Rovno-Baranovichi-Misnk railroads on 2 of 3 maps. And they are going straight(verticaly) through Prityat area. The problem is that I have no good WWII time maps which would show me railroads there. So, again, let me know if anyone has them, please. The good example of rail existence research is Case Blue area. If one looks at small scale railroad map he will probably not be able to find Rostov-Stalingrad railroad there because it was small(one way?) road. But if you look at Manstein's maps(Lost Victories) or some other generals which fought there, you will find so many railroads in Don bending, that there is barely enough place to put them on WiR map.